Kon Air: The Kon Knueppel Thread

[KembaWalker]

the difference is that Scottie Barnes ceiling wasn't high end role player when he was drafted (nor now even if people are cooling on his top end)
same with the others. limiting these comps strictly to 4th overall really limits the scope when it would make more sense to be looking at 3-6 as drafts have different levels of talent

im not being swayed at all in the argument that targeting role players at 4th overall makes sense because theres no immediate superstars specifically at 4 over a particular time period. 4 is a high draft pick. role players are readily available. you're picking a guy at 4 that could average 14/5/5 on good shooting #s in a few years when you could just idk get some Grayson Allen guy as a throw in to do 90% of the same thing for probably half the price of what youll have to pay Kon on his rookie extension if he's putting up those numbers

[MasterIchiro]

I don't understand the rationale for comping Kon strictly to 4th overall, given the variance in talent between drafts.

Why not compare him to lottery picks? You get to include the occasional Haliburton in your sample.

When you expand the sample to include the whole lottery, trends become clearer that a growing number of lottery prospects in the one-and-done era do not impact winning much relevant to their cost first 4 years. By the time they reach the age of a college senior, you've shelled out 40 million dollars on a pretty volatile commodity.

I am for drafting BPA (Buzelis, Clingan over Salaün for example), but concede that my leanings towards high ceiling vs high floor have shifted and I find myself trying to recalibrate my expectations.

Monk scored 50 in a game as a teen. It took that twerp 4 years to adjust to pro competition. He is athleticially gifted, and highly skilled.

If you can identify both skill and maturity in a prospect, you increase your chances of making a sound investment.

[vexco]

the difference is that Scottie Barnes ceiling wasn't high end role player when he was drafted (nor now even if people are cooling on his top end)
same with the others. limiting these comps strictly to 4th overall really limits the scope when it would make more sense to be looking at 3-6 as drafts have different levels of talent

im not being swayed at all in the argument that targeting role players at 4th overall makes sense because theres no immediate superstars specifically at 4 over a particular time period. 4 is a high draft pick. role players are readily available. you're picking a guy at 4 that could average 14/5/5 on good shooting #s in a few years when you could just idk get some Grayson Allen guy as a throw in to do 90% of the same thing for probably half the price of what youll have to pay Kon on his rookie extension if he's putting up those numbers

Ok, who would you have drafted at 4 that you think has a higher ceiling or impacts winning more than Kon?

[SWedd523]

You're going out of your way to talk down to multiple people because they don't also think Kon is awful or whatever. No need for that hostile energy. You are not any smarter at this then anybody else and you are being a jerk for no reason.

I gave a serious response to a point about defense and LDW went out of his way to talk down to me with a smarmy remark about Kai Jones that has nothing to do with Kon, Tre, or the discussion at hand.

Yet I'm the jerk with hostile energy. Strange. It's almost like you're only acting offended because my remarks are anti-Kon in nature.

You're in luck though. You have options:

1. Report the post you think violates the board CoC and let the mods do their job
2. Ignore the posts you don't like reading
3. Block the users you don't like engaging with

What I can assure you nobody needs is option 4. gaslighting someone on behalf of a third party and trying to force the mods into action

Or, take no junk from a guy who went out of his way to try to make me look stupid, got proved wrong and couldn't let it go?
Don't try to manage my affairs or tell me to cry to the mods, I haven't done anything to you and I don't need your validation.
Chill Bro, or continue being rude whenever someone doesn't co-sign your opinion's. That's gonna really win people over.
Kon is likely to not be a bust, people can like him without being wrong. You aren't the victim, your the aggressor.

the irony here is so incredible I can't tell if it's satire or not

[KembaWalker]

the difference is that Scottie Barnes ceiling wasn't high end role player when he was drafted (nor now even if people are cooling on his top end)
same with the others. limiting these comps strictly to 4th overall really limits the scope when it would make more sense to be looking at 3-6 as drafts have different levels of talent

im not being swayed at all in the argument that targeting role players at 4th overall makes sense because theres no immediate superstars specifically at 4 over a particular time period. 4 is a high draft pick. role players are readily available. you're picking a guy at 4 that could average 14/5/5 on good shooting #s in a few years when you could just idk get some Grayson Allen guy as a throw in to do 90% of the same thing for probably half the price of what youll have to pay Kon on his rookie extension if he's putting up those numbers

Ok, who would you have drafted at 4 that you think has a higher ceiling or impacts winning more than Kon?

I dunno I was firmly in the anyone but Kon camp. I guess I have to cover myself before Ben takes everything 100% literally so, not literally anyone but Kon but any of the guys that were reasonably mocked at our pick. I’m not one of those guys that cosplays as a scout trying to pretend I see what nobody else is seeing, Kons low ceiling was a general consensus

[SWedd523]

the difference is that Scottie Barnes ceiling wasn't high end role player when he was drafted (nor now even if people are cooling on his top end)
same with the others. limiting these comps strictly to 4th overall really limits the scope when it would make more sense to be looking at 3-6 as drafts have different levels of talent

im not being swayed at all in the argument that targeting role players at 4th overall makes sense because theres no immediate superstars specifically at 4 over a particular time period. 4 is a high draft pick. role players are readily available. you're picking a guy at 4 that could average 14/5/5 on good shooting #s in a few years when you could just idk get some Grayson Allen guy as a throw in to do 90% of the same thing for probably half the price of what youll have to pay Kon on his rookie extension if he's putting up those numbers

Ok, who would you have drafted at 4 that you think has a higher ceiling or impacts winning more than Kon?

I dunno I was firmly in the anyone but Kon camp. I guess I have to cover myself before Ben takes everything 100% literally so, not literally anyone but Kon but any of the guys that were reasonably mocked at our pick. I’m not one of those guys that cosplays as a scout trying to pretend I see what nobody else is seeing, Kons low ceiling was a general consensus

I'd rather pick Ace and have him fail than pick Kon and have him reach his median outcome.

In either case the Hornets are still looking for centerpiece talent in two years anyway so the needle doesn't really move much one way or the other for me

[KembaWalker]

Ok, who would you have drafted at 4 that you think has a higher ceiling or impacts winning more than Kon?

I dunno I was firmly in the anyone but Kon camp. I guess I have to cover myself before Ben takes everything 100% literally so, not literally anyone but Kon but any of the guys that were reasonably mocked at our pick. I’m not one of those guys that cosplays as a scout trying to pretend I see what nobody else is seeing, Kons low ceiling was a general consensus

I'd rather pick Ace and have him fail than pick Kon and have him reach his median outcome.

In either case the Hornets are still looking for centerpiece talent in two years anyway so the needle doesn't really move much one way or the other for me

Yup, and people are like “ohh but everyone is giving us A draft grade” and okay sure but it feels like nobody actually thinks Kon is the best player in the slot, we’re just getting graded on something else differently than every other team because we’re the Hornets and everyone thinks our team is a bunch of moronic thug dummies and we draft busts so we get an A for drafting some guys that are unlikely to totally bust and not likely to get arrested. Like we’re too pathetic to get graded on the same scale as everyone else

[driveandkick]

To me Ace playing next to another top 5 pick on a team that was awful (even when both of them played) is way more damning than how fast Kon touches one cone then the next cone

[KembaWalker]

To me Ace playing next to another top 5 pick on a team that was awful (even when both of them played) is way more damning than how fast Kon touches one cone then the next cone

Yeah and MKG was the 2nd best player on the best college team of the last 20 years. Probably doesn’t matter that much either way, and we all would have been thrilled to get Harper

[amcoolio]

Again, Kon's only path to stardom is improving his handle and scoring ability off the dribble significantly, nothing to do with his defense. It's rare, but improving the handle can happen. He apparently developed his shot only in the last 2 years, he didn't used to shoot the basketball.

We clearly chose culture and locker room over chance to be a star in this draft, that is indisputable. That is a major gamble for a franchise as pathetic as ours is to make, but whatever

[vexco]

the difference is that Scottie Barnes ceiling wasn't high end role player when he was drafted (nor now even if people are cooling on his top end)
same with the others. limiting these comps strictly to 4th overall really limits the scope when it would make more sense to be looking at 3-6 as drafts have different levels of talent

im not being swayed at all in the argument that targeting role players at 4th overall makes sense because theres no immediate superstars specifically at 4 over a particular time period. 4 is a high draft pick. role players are readily available. you're picking a guy at 4 that could average 14/5/5 on good shooting #s in a few years when you could just idk get some Grayson Allen guy as a throw in to do 90% of the same thing for probably half the price of what youll have to pay Kon on his rookie extension if he's putting up those numbers

Ok, who would you have drafted at 4 that you think has a higher ceiling or impacts winning more than Kon?

I dunno I was firmly in the anyone but Kon camp. I guess I have to cover myself before Ben takes everything 100% literally so, not literally anyone but Kon but any of the guys that were reasonably mocked at our pick. I’m not one of those guys that cosplays as a scout trying to pretend I see what nobody else is seeing, Kons low ceiling was a general consensus

If you don't have a strong enough opinion about who you would've taken then why have a strong opinion about drating Kon? You say you're not cosplaying as a scout but you believe you know enough to label 1 player out of all of our options as the wrong choice but not enough to say which was the right one? I don't understand that at all.

Not liking Kon is fine. I didn't want to draft him but I also don't think he's as low ceiling as you're saying. If you think his ceiling is so low, what player do you think comps to his ceiling? Bane? Klay?

[vexco]

I dunno I was firmly in the anyone but Kon camp. I guess I have to cover myself before Ben takes everything 100% literally so, not literally anyone but Kon but any of the guys that were reasonably mocked at our pick. I’m not one of those guys that cosplays as a scout trying to pretend I see what nobody else is seeing, Kons low ceiling was a general consensus

I'd rather pick Ace and have him fail than pick Kon and have him reach his median outcome.

In either case the Hornets are still looking for centerpiece talent in two years anyway so the needle doesn't really move much one way or the other for me

Yup, and people are like “ohh but everyone is giving us A draft grade” and okay sure but it feels like nobody actually thinks Kon is the best player in the slot, we’re just getting graded on something else differently than every other team because we’re the Hornets and everyone thinks our team is a bunch of moronic thug dummies and we draft busts so we get an A for drafting some guys that are unlikely to totally bust and not likely to get arrested. Like we’re too pathetic to get graded on the same scale as everyone else

This is just cope. We got high draft grades because people who do this for a living actually like the players we drafted. Basically everywhere had Kon ranked anywhere from 3-6.

I've never seen fans try to twist an almost universally praised draft class into "they're grading us on a curve lolz".

[Liver_Pooty]

Well this was an interesting read today. lol gah dang.

[fatlever]

I was thinking about something yesterday watching the game, A different player comparison. I don't know if it's good or just OK but just follow me on this train of thought...

kon Reminds me of a 6'5" SETH Curry.

- The obvious comparison right off the top is the knockdown Three point shooting skill. In terms of pure three point shooting I think kon Could very well be in the same category as Seth in terms of catch and shoot %. his overall percentages will be lower (seth is goat level %) Because I do expect kon to have More volume attention and more off the dribble 3pt attempts. 40% career 3pt seems realistic

- Here's the thing though, as good of a shooter as Seth has always been throughout his career, he's not a greedy volume shooter. He almost always takes high quality shots within the flow of the offense (why his %s are so high). One thing we've seen from kon, So far, is that he is not someone who is going to hunt for his own offense. He's going to take what the defense gives him, whether that's shots or passes or drives. these guys will probably always have high percentages because they take high percentage shots and they don't force bad shots.

- kon, like seth, Is an incredibly smart player, as someone who has been around the game since he was a kid, surrounded by high level, smart players in his family. Seth is someone who makes the right reads. Rarely out of position. Doesn't turn the ball over much. Moves well without the ball. Keeps the ball moving on offense.

- kon, like seth, Is a below average athlete compared to his peers. However they both have good footwork and functional handles for uards, enough to help them get separation as well as get past the first defender, esp with screens. kon Did not seem to have a ton of trouble at least getting a shoulder ahead of his first defender and at least getting to that middle part of the floor between the paint and the 3 point line where he was Able to look for his mid range shot or get the defense to over commit and then make the correct pass to the open teammate. Both players have exceptional mid range jump shots. And both are safe but quality passers in that part of the floor. both are keen to give-and-go plays.

- seth, Has an underrated pick and roll game. I think Kon is already better than him in this regard and should only get better.

- Defensively, both players get by on fundamentals, team defense and being smart. Seth was clearly one of the least athletic players on the team last year but I almost never got annoyed with his defense. He is tough, stronger than he looks and was almost always in the right place and made the right rotations. He was not someone that typically got picked on defensively. Neither is ever going to be a playmaker on defense but I don't project kon To be near the bottom of defenders either. He's just way too smart and way too strong and has such good balance. We saw a lot of instances where his strength really helped him once players got a step on him he was able to recover and knock them off their line a little bit.

- Seth was a surprisingly very willing Screener last year something we've seen a lot of from Kon in just these three games. He sets a lot of screens at the top of the floor.

- I think they both processed the game very similarly on both ends of the floor.

- The difference is that kon is 6'5", 220 and 18, while seth is 6'1". At Seth's size he needed to be a pure point guard to really stick in the league and that's just not his game. He's a secondary playmaker and secondary ball handler. I think his career would have been very different had he been kon's size. He would still never be in the same stratosphere as his brother simply because he doesn't have the elite handles or the elite off dribble shooting that steph had. but a 6"5" seth Would have been a high quality NBA starter most of his career.

maybe im crazy... But I spent a lot of time focusing on Seth last year because I enjoyed the way he played. I commented several times last year that he was perhaps our most functional guard, In terms of actually impacting winning (post melo/miller injuries). He just didn't have the legs anymore to play more than spot minutes.

tldr
kon = 6'5" SETH curry. its best comp ive thought of so far.

[Liver_Pooty]

I was thinking about something yesterday watching the game, A different player comparison. I don't know if it's good or just OK but just follow me on this train of thought...

kon Reminds me of a 6'5" SETH Curry.

- The obvious comparison right off the top is the knockdown Three point shooting skill. In terms of pure three point shooting I think kon Could very well be in the same category as Seth in terms of catch and shoot %. his overall percentages will be lower (seth is goat level %) Because I do expect kon to have More volume attention and more off the dribble 3pt attempts. 40% career 3pt seems realistic

- Here's the thing though, as good of a shooter as Seth has always been throughout his career, he's not a greedy volume shooter. He almost always takes high quality shots within the flow of the offense (why his %s are so high). One thing we've seen from kon, So far, is that he is not someone who is going to hunt for his own offense. He's going to take what the defense gives him, whether that's shots or passes or drives. these guys will probably always have high percentages because they take high percentage shots and they don't force bad shots.

- kon, like seth, Is an incredibly smart player, as someone who has been around the game since he was a kid, surrounded by high level, smart players in his family. Seth is someone who makes the right reads. Rarely out of position. Doesn't turn the ball over much. Moves well without the ball. Keeps the ball moving on offense.

- kon, like seth, Is a below average athlete compared to his peers. However they both have good footwork and functional handles for uards, enough to help them get separation as well as get past the first defender, esp with screens. kon Did not seem to have a ton of trouble at least getting a shoulder ahead of his first defender and at least getting to that middle part of the floor between the paint and the 3 point line where he was Able to look for his mid range shot or get the defense to over commit and then make the correct pass to the open teammate. Both players have exceptional mid range jump shots. And both are safe but quality passers in that part of the floor. both are keen to give-and-go plays.

- seth, Has an underrated pick and roll game. I think Kon is already better than him in this regard and should only get better.

- Defensively, both players get by on fundamentals, team defense and being smart. Seth was clearly one of the least athletic players on the team last year but I almost never got annoyed with his defense. He is tough, stronger than he looks and was almost always in the right place and made the right rotations. He was not someone that typically got picked on defensively. Neither is ever going to be a playmaker on defense but I don't project kon To be near the bottom of defenders either. He's just way too smart and way too strong and has such good balance. We saw a lot of instances where his strength really helped him once players got a step on him he was able to recover and knock them off their line a little bit.

- Seth was a surprisingly very willing Screener last year something we've seen a lot of from Kon in just these three games. He sets a lot of screens at the top of the floor.

- I think they both processed the game very similarly on both ends of the floor.

- The difference is that kon is 6'5", 220 and 18, while seth is 6'1". At Seth's size he needed to be a pure point guard to really stick in the league and that's just not his game. He's a secondary playmaker and secondary ball handler. I think his career would have been very different had he been kon's size. He would still never be in the same stratosphere as his brother simply because he doesn't have the elite handles or the elite off dribble shooting that steph had. but a 6"5" seth Would have been a high quality NBA starter most of his career.

maybe im crazy... But I spent a lot of time focusing on Seth last year because I enjoyed the way he played. I commented several times last year that he was perhaps our most functional guard, In terms of actually impacting winning (post melo/miller injuries). He just didn't have the legs anymore to play more than spot minutes.

tldr
kon = 6'5" SETH curry. its best comp ive thought of so far.

You like old school ball. What about early 90s Jeff Hornacek

[SWedd523]

Well this was an interesting read today. lol gah dang.

Watch yourself before you **** around and catch a death threat

[Liver_Pooty]

Well this was an interesting read today. lol gah dang.

Watch yourself before you **** around and catch a death threat

lol. Buzzin had me ready to water board myself the other day. No more.

[fatlever]

I was thinking about something yesterday watching the game, A different player comparison. I don't know if it's good or just OK but just follow me on this train of thought...

kon Reminds me of a 6'5" SETH Curry.

- The obvious comparison right off the top is the knockdown Three point shooting skill. In terms of pure three point shooting I think kon Could very well be in the same category as Seth in terms of catch and shoot %. his overall percentages will be lower (seth is goat level %) Because I do expect kon to have More volume attention and more off the dribble 3pt attempts. 40% career 3pt seems realistic

- Here's the thing though, as good of a shooter as Seth has always been throughout his career, he's not a greedy volume shooter. He almost always takes high quality shots within the flow of the offense (why his %s are so high). One thing we've seen from kon, So far, is that he is not someone who is going to hunt for his own offense. He's going to take what the defense gives him, whether that's shots or passes or drives. these guys will probably always have high percentages because they take high percentage shots and they don't force bad shots.

- kon, like seth, Is an incredibly smart player, as someone who has been around the game since he was a kid, surrounded by high level, smart players in his family. Seth is someone who makes the right reads. Rarely out of position. Doesn't turn the ball over much. Moves well without the ball. Keeps the ball moving on offense.

- kon, like seth, Is a below average athlete compared to his peers. However they both have good footwork and functional handles for uards, enough to help them get separation as well as get past the first defender, esp with screens. kon Did not seem to have a ton of trouble at least getting a shoulder ahead of his first defender and at least getting to that middle part of the floor between the paint and the 3 point line where he was Able to look for his mid range shot or get the defense to over commit and then make the correct pass to the open teammate. Both players have exceptional mid range jump shots. And both are safe but quality passers in that part of the floor. both are keen to give-and-go plays.

- seth, Has an underrated pick and roll game. I think Kon is already better than him in this regard and should only get better.

- Defensively, both players get by on fundamentals, team defense and being smart. Seth was clearly one of the least athletic players on the team last year but I almost never got annoyed with his defense. He is tough, stronger than he looks and was almost always in the right place and made the right rotations. He was not someone that typically got picked on defensively. Neither is ever going to be a playmaker on defense but I don't project kon To be near the bottom of defenders either. He's just way too smart and way too strong and has such good balance. We saw a lot of instances where his strength really helped him once players got a step on him he was able to recover and knock them off their line a little bit.

- Seth was a surprisingly very willing Screener last year something we've seen a lot of from Kon in just these three games. He sets a lot of screens at the top of the floor.

- I think they both processed the game very similarly on both ends of the floor.

- The difference is that kon is 6'5", 220 and 18, while seth is 6'1". At Seth's size he needed to be a pure point guard to really stick in the league and that's just not his game. He's a secondary playmaker and secondary ball handler. I think his career would have been very different had he been kon's size. He would still never be in the same stratosphere as his brother simply because he doesn't have the elite handles or the elite off dribble shooting that steph had. but a 6"5" seth Would have been a high quality NBA starter most of his career.

maybe im crazy... But I spent a lot of time focusing on Seth last year because I enjoyed the way he played. I commented several times last year that he was perhaps our most functional guard, In terms of actually impacting winning (post melo/miller injuries). He just didn't have the legs anymore to play more than spot minutes.

tldr
kon = 6'5" SETH curry. its best comp ive thought of so far.

You like old school ball. What about early 90s Jeff Hornacek

Yeah. Similar.

Sent from my SM-G973U using RealGM mobile app

[luciano-davidwesley]

Well there you go, that ends the discussion once and for all.

By all means drafting the Kai Jones's of the world is how to do it right?

Jumps high and long, jumps high and long.

Just so we're clear, you're equating Tre Johnson to Kai Jones? I truly appreciate the insight.

Thanks for putting words in my mouth.

I said drafting athletes and measurables with no feel or skill is not a great strategy. Pretty sure I never even mentioned Tre Johnson lol.

But while we are there, I will say I very much doubt he ever becomes a decent defender, in spite of possessing plus length and athleticism.

Every year at draft time we see the same cliches that player X projects to be a plus defender at the next level (despite being terrible in college) because they have good measurables and/or athleticism. 90% of the time the bad long/athletic defender in college turns out to also be a bad defender in the NBA too.

[luciano-davidwesley]

For the record, I am not a Kon defender. I was disappointed with the pick, wanted us to draft Ace or Tre or Fears via tradeback. Even though I kind of hate Ace's game and think he's about a 75% chance to bust, and Tre is going to be a traffic cone on D but a good offensive player.

I will say though Kon looks like he's very smart and will at least bring some much needed basketball IQ to a team full of minus basketball IQ. His passing game has popped, summer league skepticism aside.

So I'm still not a Kon truther by any stretch, but feel a little bit better about the pick than I did on draft night(s).