The Gordon Hayward Thread

[MasterIchiro]

I just love that, considering his reputation and with coach Clifford here that the removal of one single player would cause the inevitable collapse of our entire team defense.

It's like Clifford has this great system and great rep yet he's not fully credited here, hes nothing without this one single player.

Just no.

Clifford's System is great, But it is heavily dependent on good wing defense. That is how we were able to hide Jefferson and McBob's deficiencies. Adding in Hayward, who is a defensive weakness, and removing a great defender makes our defense not work. The scheme only works if we have players that can actually play defense.

It also works if all 5 defenders buy in, hustle, play to their strengths and cover for each other.

[LofJ]

I know it isn't going to happen, but how excited would you guys be if we sent the Jazz Henderson and our 2015 1st? We'd still be around 11.5 million under the cap even with Hayward's 14.8 million payout.

[HornetJail]

I'm going to just keep repeating this until it sinks in.

And I will keep repeating this. MKG was never getting traded and the Jazz were never letting Hayward come here, sign and trade or otherwise. This is all much ado about nothing.

Quoted, bolded, and put in big blue font for truth

[yosemiteben]

As much as it would pain me to have MKIA stroke his ego even more than he already does, I am 100% in on a Hornets ReaglGM pickup game if it could be arranged.

[HornetJail]

I know it isn't going to happen, but how excited would you guys be if we sent the Jazz Henderson and our 2015 1st? We'd still be around 11.5 million under the cap even with Hayward's 14.8 million payout.

Rather trade Henderson, Taylor, Neal, and our 2015 1st with the approval of Lance Stephenson.

[RichBoy923]

There is no way Charlotte has banked on the Jazz not matching. Cho should theoretically see what the Jazz see which is a rising cap and the necessity for the Jazz to avoid fan blowback. It is not a reasonable expectation to poach a franchise guy without a fight. I think it would be quite naive of our front office to engage in this kind of thinking.

Again, the purpose of the distasteful contract offer was to compel the Jazz to consider being more open to sign + trade possibilities. Charlotte doesn't want Utah to match but Charlotte also doesn't expect to get him for nothing.

I'm going to just keep repeating this until it sinks in.

Losing your franchise player for nothing is not an option for the Jazz.

And of course Cho recognizes this.

It is the worst case scenario for Utah.

I'm not sure we'd rather do a sign and trade with Hayward giving up pieces than just signing him outright. It takes two to tango. Jazz aren't just going to trade him for the sake of trading him without getting something back. I'm trying to think of a trade that would be reasonable for both parties but wouldn't set us back. I personally think we are hoping they don't match. A Sign & Trade would be nice but just don't see one that's going to help us. Yes I get that we have to give up pieces to acquire someone like Hayward but with the way our roster is constructed it would hamper our rebuild.

[mrknowitall215]

It's just that he was so good offensively with a team that was willing to bend their backs defensively to win that it was mildly offset.

If by "bend their backs" you mean play solid team defense and have a top tier defense, then yes. It's so odd to me that you continue to try to frame our defense last season as some sort of weakness that is on the verge of collapsing. Maybe I'm not remembering correctly, but were you not among the group that viewed Henderson as at best an average defender?

I am the 'primary' poster that considered Henderson a average defender, yes

As far as Jefferson and teammates bending their backs, you'd be surprised how hostile a locker room could become if they feel like they're having to overextend the efforts to help a teammate that's not giving the same type of effort on the defensive end. It happens a lot, and obviously more than you know

[LofJ]

I know it isn't going to happen, but how excited would you guys be if we sent the Jazz Henderson and our 2015 1st? We'd still be around 11.5 million under the cap even with Hayward's 14.8 million payout.

Rather trade Henderson, Taylor, Neal, and our 2015 1st with the approval of Lance Stephenson.

A wing rotation of MKG, Hayward, Stephenson, and Hairston would be nightmarish for the rest of the league.

[yosemiteben]

It's just that he was so good offensively with a team that was willing to bend their backs defensively to win that it was mildly offset.

If by "bend their backs" you mean play solid team defense and have a top tier defense, then yes. It's so odd to me that you continue to try to frame our defense last season as some sort of weakness that is on the verge of collapsing. Maybe I'm not remembering correctly, but were you not among the group that viewed Henderson as at best an average defender?

I am the 'primary' poster that considered Henderson a average defender, yes

As far as Jefferson and teammates bending their backs, you'd be surprised how hostile a locker room could become if they feel like they're having to overextend the efforts to help a teammate that's not giving the same type of effort on the defensive end. It happens a lot, and obviously more than you know

So if Henderson is just an average defender yet we were still able to maintain a top tier defense, you think that adding Hayward will crater that defense?

And are you really making the argument that Jefferson is hurting team chemistry? I can't consider that to be a sincere argument. It cuts against everything we heard about this team.

[mrknowitall215]

As much as it would pain me to have MKIA stroke his ego even more than he already does, I am 100% in on a Hornets ReaglGM pickup game if it could be arranged.

I would gladly participate if there was a incentive to gain from it. I prefer to remain anonymous, but I'd come out of that shell if there's a 1-on-1 tournament that grant the winner at least $1000 and/or 'a new car'

[yosemiteben]

As much as it would pain me to have MKIA stroke his ego even more than he already does, I am 100% in on a Hornets ReaglGM pickup game if it could be arranged.

I would gladly participate if there was a incentive to gain from it. I prefer to remain anonymous, but I'd come out of that shell if there's a 1-on-1 tournament that grant the winner at least $1000 and/or 'a new car'

Feel free to stay in your shell.

[MKGsMotor]

As much as it would pain me to have MKIA stroke his ego even more than he already does, I am 100% in on a Hornets ReaglGM pickup game if it could be arranged.

I'd like to put my name in the hat. Appeared in state championship games twice during junior and senior year of high school. Beat oak hill. D2 scholarships. Didnt accept due to personal reasons. Draft me pls. I wanna beat mkia

[LofJ]

As much as it would pain me to have MKIA stroke his ego even more than he already does, I am 100% in on a Hornets ReaglGM pickup game if it could be arranged.

I would gladly participate if there was a incentive to gain from it. I prefer to remain anonymous, but I'd come out of that shell if there's a 1-on-1 tournament that grant the winner at least $1000 and/or 'a new car'

lol, how awesome would it be if one of us ended up being Michael Jordan in disguise?

[MasterIchiro]

I would pick mrglover for my team so if we start losing he will bust a cap in your ass, never mind punching your team in the forehead.

[yosemiteben]

As much as it would pain me to have MKIA stroke his ego even more than he already does, I am 100% in on a Hornets ReaglGM pickup game if it could be arranged.

I'd like to put my name in the hat. Appeared in state championship games twice during junior and senior year of high school. Beat oak hill. D2 scholarships. Didnt accept due to personal reasons. Draft me pls. I wanna beat mkia

Yeah or we could just have fun. What's with the weird competitiveness here?

I vote we get you and MKIA in a 1-on-1 game and then have BD provide snarky commentary.

[mrknowitall215]

So if Henderson is just an average defender yet we were still able to maintain a top tier defense, you think that adding Hayward will crater that defense?

And are you really making the argument that Jefferson is hurting team chemistry? I can't consider that to be a sincere argument. It cuts against everything we heard about this team.

No, what I'm saying is that since I consider Henderson as just a average defender that I consider Hayward a porous defender that would cause the Hornets defense to take at least a mild hit and backdrop outside of being a top-10 defense, unless of course if Vonleh proves to be some kind of near elite rim protector in his rookie year

I never stated no such thing that Jefferson's defense hurt team chemistry. What I'm insinuating is that he's as bad of a defender as advertised, but the Bobcats' players were so happy and fortunate to have his scoring that they accepted 'breaking their backs' defensively to help him on that end as long as he delivered offensively. There was obvious frustration among players like Kemba & others in-game when he'd just give up a layup, but I guess that's where good character come into play with the players Cho acquire

[MKGsMotor]

As much as it would pain me to have MKIA stroke his ego even more than he already does, I am 100% in on a Hornets ReaglGM pickup game if it could be arranged.

I'd like to put my name in the hat. Appeared in state championship games twice during junior and senior year of high school. Beat oak hill. D2 scholarships. Didnt accept due to personal reasons. Draft me pls. I wanna beat mkia

Yeah or we could just have fun. What's with the weird competitiveness here?

I vote we get you and MKIA in a 1-on-1 game and then have BD provide snarky commentary.

I like mkia. I'm semi joking. He just said no one could stop him from scoring. I do like the idea of a realgm pickup game, it sounds fun and everyone could meet.

to get back on topic, I would offer Zeller and hendo in a sign and trade. But that's about it

[Dancingpanda]

I just love that, considering his reputation and with coach Clifford here that the removal of one single player would cause the inevitable collapse of our entire team defense.

It's like Clifford has this great system and great rep yet he's not fully credited here, hes nothing without this one single player.

Just no.

Clifford's System is great, But it is heavily dependent on good wing defense. That is how we were able to hide Jefferson and McBob's deficiencies. Adding in Hayward, who is a defensive weakness, and removing a great defender makes our defense not work. The scheme only works if we have players that can actually play defense.

It also works if all 5 defenders buy in, hustle, play to their strengths and cover for each other.

That is true. But it does not matter how hard they hustle and by in if they cant stay in front of their man or we are over helping. Im just saying that adding in to many defensive liabilities will create a poor defense no matter how great your system is. That is why i think we need to keep MKG if we are bringing in Hayward. They complement each other well and would create offence for each other, while also not creating to much of a weakness on D. We can get offence from somewhere else in this FA, no point in dumping one of our top prospects and defensive anchor for grossly overpaid ball movement.

[LofJ]

The dogpile on Jordan for this contract is starting on the General Board.

[MasterIchiro]

Clifford's System is great, But it is heavily dependent on good wing defense. That is how we were able to hide Jefferson and McBob's deficiencies. Adding in Hayward, who is a defensive weakness, and removing a great defender makes our defense not work. The scheme only works if we have players that can actually play defense.

It also works if all 5 defenders buy in, hustle, play to their strengths and cover for each other.

That is true. But it does not matter how hard they hustle and by in if they cant stay in front of their man or we are over helping. Im just saying that adding in to many defensive liabilities will create a poor defense no matter how great your system is. That is why i think we need to keep MKG if we are bringing in Hayward. They complement each other well and would create offence for each other, while also not creating to much of a weakness on D. We can get offence from somewhere else in this FA, no point in dumping one of our top prospects and defensive anchor for grossly overpaid ball movement.

Well my plan is to compliment Hayward with Lance Stephenson. He's a fierce defender.