2020 Off-season Discussion

[MasterIchiro]

Why do some people have beer goggles for Langford all of a sudden?


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It's not like we want to pork him. I haven't watched him play but the Celtics crowd seems high on him. The problem is he's buried behind a mountain of talent in Kemba + Brown + Smart + Tatum. It will be hard to get him minutes and develop him for the Celtics so he's losing value for them. That TPE oughta do the trick.

[JMAC3]

Why do some people have beer goggles for Langford all of a sudden?


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I am an Indiana Basketball fan, I have seen us pick Zeller and Vonleh and watched Oladipo and OG develop in front of my eyes.

Romeo wasn't ready for the league, he should of stayed in college and worked on his jumpshot. He is a really good slasher with the ball in his hands and does a great job of finishing through contact, but he can't really dribble. His game is built purely on speed, quickness and length.

Trayce Jackson Davis is a star tho, I think he is better than Evan Mobley as of right now.

[penquin11]

Noah Vonleh just signed an NBA contract again. Good for him. I'm kind of amazed he's made it in the NBA. I was never more certain of a bust then when we picked him.

[MasterIchiro]

So the board voted Wiseman and Okongwu ahead of LaMelo Ball in our mock draft. We've
obviously missed out on solving center via the draft and have added a third point guard.

Our GM has been pursuing centers since he arrived. First he was linked to Andre Drummond rumors, then Gasol rumors, then to the Rockets just prior to their Capela trade. WCS reportedly turned down MJ's money last off-season, Harrell this one. Additionally Kupchak has been linked to Myles Turner.

So who is our target center moving forward? Allen? Turner? Gobert? Drummond?

Do we solve the position via trade, draft, free agency? Is Carey Jr the answer?

[GiggitySmalls]

I'm sure we would have gotten Whiteside or Cousins if this Hayward thing wasn't taking too long

We wanted Harrell. I think he was a good target. We also chased Turner, another good one. We have Hayward to recruit Gobert and we drafted Carey Jr. I still trust Kupchak.

cmon man

what's an older Hayward/Gobert team up gonna do now that they didn't accomplish before?

They didn't play with Lamelo, Graham, Washington, Bridges and other moving parts. We own all out draft picks. If we got rudy in his prime I think we would all be pretty pumped. A western jazz is 3 seed in the east.

[DY_nasty]

We wanted Harrell. I think he was a good target. We also chased Turner, another good one. We have Hayward to recruit Gobert and we drafted Carey Jr. I still trust Kupchak.

cmon man

what's an older Hayward/Gobert team up gonna do now that they didn't accomplish before?

They didn't play with Lamelo, Graham, Washington, Bridges and other moving parts. We own all out draft picks. If we got rudy in his prime I think we would all be pretty pumped. A western jazz is 3 seed in the east.

The best they ever did was 50 games - now Hayward's stagnated or worse and every playoff team knows how to neutralize Rudy.

Slapping our rookies on top of that isn't exactly the rebuild anyone should be planning for.

[JMAC3]

cmon man

what's an older Hayward/Gobert team up gonna do now that they didn't accomplish before?

They didn't play with Lamelo, Graham, Washington, Bridges and other moving parts. We own all out draft picks. If we got rudy in his prime I think we would all be pretty pumped. A western jazz is 3 seed in the east.

The best they ever did was 50 games - now Hayward's stagnated or worse and every playoff team knows how to neutralize Rudy.

Slapping our rookies on top of that isn't exactly the rebuild anyone should be planning for.

\

Who do you want us to get?

[DY_nasty]

They didn't play with Lamelo, Graham, Washington, Bridges and other moving parts. We own all out draft picks. If we got rudy in his prime I think we would all be pretty pumped. A western jazz is 3 seed in the east.

The best they ever did was 50 games - now Hayward's stagnated or worse and every playoff team knows how to neutralize Rudy.

Slapping our rookies on top of that isn't exactly the rebuild anyone should be planning for.

\

Who do you want us to get?

this year there isn't a single guy that we could get worth that's worth planning around.

doing nothing but picking up low risk/high reward (diallo, giles, noel, etc) guys on short deals that lined up with Terry's expiring year was the move. or even generally cheap vets (robin lopez, cousins, len, etc) that simply give us depth at critical positions that aren't retreads like biz.

[JMAC3]

The best they ever did was 50 games - now Hayward's stagnated or worse and every playoff team knows how to neutralize Rudy.

Slapping our rookies on top of that isn't exactly the rebuild anyone should be planning for.

\

Who do you want us to get?

this year there isn't a single guy that we could get worth that's worth planning around.

doing nothing but picking up low risk/high reward (diallo, giles, noel, etc) guys on short deals that lined up with Terry's expiring year was the move. or even generally cheap vets (robin lopez, cousins, len, etc) that simply give us depth at critical positions that aren't retreads like biz.

Sure so sign a bunch of one year deals. I am with you so far, next year we would of 60 million in cap space with this plan. Who would you sign next offseason?

[DY_nasty]

\

Who do you want us to get?

this year there isn't a single guy that we could get worth that's worth planning around.

doing nothing but picking up low risk/high reward (diallo, giles, noel, etc) guys on short deals that lined up with Terry's expiring year was the move. or even generally cheap vets (robin lopez, cousins, len, etc) that simply give us depth at critical positions that aren't retreads like biz.

Sure so sign a bunch of one year deals. I am with you so far, next year we would of 60 million in cap space with this plan. Who would you sign next offseason?

I don't think you're really getting why I'm so focused on keeping that cap space open...

It allows us to make plays for guys who are disgruntled or looking for better opportunities from their teams - as well as giving us the opportunity to absorb contracts for draft picks as well. As is, we're almost never in a position to be that third or fourth team that facilitates a larger trade while taking on assets in return for those efforts. By reducing our ability to be effective in that lane, we're limiting ourselves further.

If we're a small market team, looking to free agency to solve our biggest problems is pretty much always going to be doing things the hard way. Building up assets within the FA period though? That's entirely possible and what we should be focused on. Low risk/high reward guys that can build value while on our roster or *very* movable/packageable veterans only unless there's a can't miss situation that falls into our laps.

So there's no guy in FA that I'm in love with really. But, for example, if Buddy Hield says he can't take it in Sacramento anymore - I want our team to be in a position where they can either acquire such a player (under 30, locked into a deal, trending upwards) or benefit from whatever transaction that occurs by facilitating the deal. We don't have enough quality young guys to change gears into building a real team yet. Until we do, we need to stay flexible and opportunistic.

[JMAC3]

this year there isn't a single guy that we could get worth that's worth planning around.

doing nothing but picking up low risk/high reward (diallo, giles, noel, etc) guys on short deals that lined up with Terry's expiring year was the move. or even generally cheap vets (robin lopez, cousins, len, etc) that simply give us depth at critical positions that aren't retreads like biz.

Sure so sign a bunch of one year deals. I am with you so far, next year we would of 60 million in cap space with this plan. Who would you sign next offseason?

I don't think you're really getting why I'm so focused on keeping that cap space open...

It allows us to make plays for guys who are disgruntled or looking for better opportunities from their teams - as well as giving us the opportunity to absorb contracts for draft picks as well. As is, we're almost never in a position to be that third or fourth team that facilitates a larger trade while taking on assets in return for those efforts. By reducing our ability to be effective in that lane, we're limiting ourselves further.

If we're a small market team, looking to free agency to solve our biggest problems is pretty much always going to be doing things the hard way. Building up assets within the FA period though? That's entirely possible and what we should be focused on. Low risk/high reward guys that can build value while on our roster or *very* movable/packageable veterans only unless there's a can't miss situation that falls into our laps.

So there's no guy in FA that I'm in love with really. But, for example, if Buddy Hield says he can't take it in Sacramento anymore - I want our team to be in a position where they can either acquire such a player (under 30, locked into a deal, trending upwards) or benefit from whatever transaction that occurs by facilitating the deal. We don't have enough quality young guys to change gears into building a real team yet. Until we do, we need to stay flexible and opportunistic.

Okay, so pretty vague plan here. I will say I do not think we need 60 million in cap space to execute these types of trades. Even after signing Hayward there is an opportunity to have nearly 40 million in cap space next summer depending on what we do with Monk.

For someone who is upset because you don't think the FO has a plan, it doesn't seem like you have a real plan for the team to get better other than keep drafting high and maybe orchestrate a trade where we get extra seconds or a late first. Thought with how upset you are over the moves you would have a master plan that had a few more concrete ideas.

[316Hornets]

So the board voted Wiseman and Okongwu ahead of LaMelo Ball in our mock draft. We've
obviously missed out on solving center via the draft and have added a third point guard.

Our GM has been pursuing centers since he arrived. First he was linked to Andre Drummond rumors, then Gasol rumors, then to the Rockets just prior to their Capela trade. WCS reportedly turned down MJ's money last off-season, Harrell this one. Additionally Kupchak has been linked to Myles Turner.

So who is our target center moving forward? Allen? Turner? Gobert? Drummond?

Do we solve the position via trade, draft, free agency? Is Carey Jr the answer?

You really only need a tall, defensive center against Embiid, Giannis, and Lakers.

Teams just accept their fate against those guys and try to outshoot other teams. I think that is the route we are going. Biz and Zeller will have to slow down the elite bigs while the Richards, Carey develop.

[DY_nasty]

Sure so sign a bunch of one year deals. I am with you so far, next year we would of 60 million in cap space with this plan. Who would you sign next offseason?

I don't think you're really getting why I'm so focused on keeping that cap space open...

It allows us to make plays for guys who are disgruntled or looking for better opportunities from their teams - as well as giving us the opportunity to absorb contracts for draft picks as well. As is, we're almost never in a position to be that third or fourth team that facilitates a larger trade while taking on assets in return for those efforts. By reducing our ability to be effective in that lane, we're limiting ourselves further.

If we're a small market team, looking to free agency to solve our biggest problems is pretty much always going to be doing things the hard way. Building up assets within the FA period though? That's entirely possible and what we should be focused on. Low risk/high reward guys that can build value while on our roster or *very* movable/packageable veterans only unless there's a can't miss situation that falls into our laps.

So there's no guy in FA that I'm in love with really. But, for example, if Buddy Hield says he can't take it in Sacramento anymore - I want our team to be in a position where they can either acquire such a player (under 30, locked into a deal, trending upwards) or benefit from whatever transaction that occurs by facilitating the deal. We don't have enough quality young guys to change gears into building a real team yet. Until we do, we need to stay flexible and opportunistic.

Okay, so pretty vague plan here. I will say I do not think we need 60 million in cap space to execute these types of trades. Even after signing Hayward there is an opportunity to have nearly 40 million in cap space next summer depending on what we do with Monk.

For someone who is upset because you don't think the FO has a plan, it doesn't seem like you have a real plan for the team to get better other than keep drafting high and maybe orchestrate a trade where we get extra seconds or a late first. Thought with how upset you are over the moves you would have a master plan that had a few more concrete ideas.

Vague plan

Its not vague when OKC does it though. We can't build around anything, until we get something proven to be worth building around. Makes sense to anyone. Get assets, be opportunistic, stay flexible, commit to nothing until the core is clearly legit and then go all in. That's not indecision or vagueness - its patience with purpose. And right now, we're aggressively making bad decisions where the best outcome doesn't put us in a better position to do anything that leads to a championship squad.

I don't know what I did to piss you off on an online message board where you throw out thinly-veiled leading questions where you're already prepared to play contrarian no matter what I say, but get over it for everyone else's sake because its not that serious lol. I'll give an honest answer each time man. Throw you links and lay out my reasoning for it too - clearly more people than you read what I post. Whatever you're feeling is one way from you mainly. Sorry

Spoiler:

And get this, I like being wrong about guys. Again, ask the mods or anyone who's been around lol

[SWedd523]

WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING

ANYTHING

Is what I'm gathering.

It's like a weird form of Stockholm Syndrome. At least they signed somebody!

[JMAC3]

[
Vague plan

Its not vague when OKC does it though. We can't build around anything, until we get something proven to be worth building around. Makes sense to anyone. Get assets, be opportunistic, stay flexible, commit to nothing until the core is clearly legit and then go all in. That's not indecision or vagueness - its patience with purpose. And right now, we're aggressively making bad decisions where the best outcome doesn't put us in a better position to do anything that leads to a championship squad.

I don't know what I did to piss you off on an online message board where you throw out thinly-veiled leading questions where you're already prepared to play contrarian no matter what I say, but get over it for everyone else's sake because its not that serious lol. I'll give an honest answer each time man. Throw you links and lay out my reasoning for it too - clearly more people than you read what I post. Whatever you're feeling is one way from you mainly. Sorry

Spoiler:

And get this, I like being wrong about guys. Again, ask the mods or anyone who's been around lol

I am not pissed off by any means. Just curious as to what plan you have that is better than what we are doing currently that you criticize every single move. Also, I never attack you or your plans, you much more aggressive in your responses with calling me thinly-veiled or eye rolls or telling how I am feeling or to get over it. I don't recall me saying anything to you along those lines so it would seem like you are the one getting sensitive on your responses. All I have asked is what plan you have that is better.

As far as OKC, they had a lot of picks from Westbrook, then more picks from Paul. Then picks from Adams. Then picks for Schroeder.

We do not have these assets to consolidate into picks unless you think people are giving up assets for Zeller or Rozier.

We also have way more young talent then OKC right now, so unless you want to trade Graham, Bridges, Monk, PJ and Ball and continue to go into a fresh mini rebuild it doesn't make sense because we are going to have to start pay these guys. Whereas OKC literally has SGA and only SGA. They drafted Poku who probably isn't coming over which can help delay their time even further.

So we are on completely different time lines, if you want to do the OKC thing then you should be trading Graham, Bridges, Monk and Rozier. Otherwise we are going to just end up paying our draft picks and only our draft picks and no room to sign outside help.

[DY_nasty]

WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING

ANYTHING

Is what I'm gathering.

It's like a weird form of Stockholm Syndrome. At least they signed somebody!

i'm saying man. the cap space doesn't have a bomb strapped to it lol

[
Vague plan

Its not vague when OKC does it though. We can't build around anything, until we get something proven to be worth building around. Makes sense to anyone. Get assets, be opportunistic, stay flexible, commit to nothing until the core is clearly legit and then go all in. That's not indecision or vagueness - its patience with purpose. And right now, we're aggressively making bad decisions where the best outcome doesn't put us in a better position to do anything that leads to a championship squad.

I don't know what I did to piss you off on an online message board where you throw out thinly-veiled leading questions where you're already prepared to play contrarian no matter what I say, but get over it for everyone else's sake because its not that serious lol. I'll give an honest answer each time man. Throw you links and lay out my reasoning for it too - clearly more people than you read what I post. Whatever you're feeling is one way from you mainly. Sorry

Spoiler:

And get this, I like being wrong about guys. Again, ask the mods or anyone who's been around lol

I am not pissed off by any means. Just curious as to what plan you have that is better than what we are doing currently that you criticize every single move. Also, I never attack you or your plans, you much more aggressive in your responses with calling me thinly-veiled or eye rolls or telling how I am feeling or to get over it. I don't recall me saying anything to you along those lines so it would seem like you are the one getting sensitive on your responses. All I have asked is what plan you have that is better.

As far as OKC, they had a lot of picks from Westbrook, then more picks from Paul. Then picks from Adams. Then picks for Schroeder.

We do not have these assets to consolidate into picks unless you think people are giving up assets for Zeller or Rozier.

We also have way more young talent then OKC right now, so unless you want to trade Graham, Bridges, Monk, PJ and Ball and continue to go into a fresh mini rebuild it doesn't make sense because we are going to have to start pay these guys. Whereas OKC literally has SGA and only SGA. They drafted Poku who probably isn't coming over which can help delay their time even further.

So we are on completely different time lines, if you want to do the OKC thing then you should be trading Graham, Bridges, Monk and Rozier. Otherwise we are going to just end up paying our draft picks and only our draft picks and no room to sign outside help.

its a shortened season with one of the best draft classes in years coming up - while two of our biggest contracts finally come off the books as well

i would've liked picks for kemba in the way that they leveraged picks for their own players as well... but oh well. at the very least we could be using our cap space to absorb contracts and get draft picks instead of paying worse players for the luxury of weakening our draft position or tying up our space for 4 years for a guy that's never going to lead the team anywhere worth getting excited about and no, we don't have a single guy as good as SGA - nor do we have a warchest of draft picks to show for our struggles either. as such, we have to be even more measured in our dealings....

doing nothing significant in this throw away of a year would've been not just good but great. and again, i get to criticize this decision.

whether its this thread, miles, hayward, or another you're so obviously wound up its plain weird lol. noting is that personal online i promise man. and if i've offended somewhere i do apologize for it as its never my intention. if its something else, you can always PM me too.

[JMAC3]

WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING

ANYTHING

Is what I'm gathering.

It's like a weird form of Stockholm Syndrome. At least they signed somebody!

i'm saying man. the cap space doesn't have a bomb strapped to it lol

I am not pissed off by any means. Just curious as to what plan you have that is better than what we are doing currently that you criticize every single move. Also, I never attack you or your plans, you much more aggressive in your responses with calling me thinly-veiled or eye rolls or telling how I am feeling or to get over it. I don't recall me saying anything to you along those lines so it would seem like you are the one getting sensitive on your responses. All I have asked is what plan you have that is better.

As far as OKC, they had a lot of picks from Westbrook, then more picks from Paul. Then picks from Adams. Then picks for Schroeder.

We do not have these assets to consolidate into picks unless you think people are giving up assets for Zeller or Rozier.

We also have way more young talent then OKC right now, so unless you want to trade Graham, Bridges, Monk, PJ and Ball and continue to go into a fresh mini rebuild it doesn't make sense because we are going to have to start pay these guys. Whereas OKC literally has SGA and only SGA. They drafted Poku who probably isn't coming over which can help delay their time even further.

So we are on completely different time lines, if you want to do the OKC thing then you should be trading Graham, Bridges, Monk and Rozier. Otherwise we are going to just end up paying our draft picks and only our draft picks and no room to sign outside help.

its a shortened season with one of the best draft classes in years coming up - while two of our biggest contracts finally come off the books as well

i would've liked picks for kemba in the way that they leveraged picks for their own players as well... but oh well. at the very least we could be using our cap space to absorb contracts and get draft picks instead of paying worse players for the luxury of weakening our draft position or tying up our space for 4 years for a guy that's never going to lead the team anywhere worth getting excited about and no, we don't have a single guy as good as SGA - nor do we have a warchest of draft picks to show for our struggles either. as such, we have to be even more measured in our dealings....

doing nothing significant in this throw away of a year would've been not just good but great. and again, i get to criticize this decision.

whether its this thread, miles, hayward, or another you're so obviously wound up its plain weird lol. noting is that personal online i promise man. and if i've offended somewhere i do apologize for it as its never my intention. if its something else, you can always PM me too.

No need to PM anybody, I am here to talk basketball not have a petty feud and it seems like you are trying to turn this into a me vs you debate.

I am debating the rebuild and absorb contracts strategy for picks vs a slow a rebuild where you mix in young talent and pay veteran players while your team is young.

I think accumulating young picks is great, but doing that only is a waste of a window where you can have both young talent and talented vets.

[DY_nasty]

We aren't in a window lol.

[amcoolio]

Hayward's contract is not bad if we can get off of Batum and Rozier. We'd have a max slot next offseason if we do before signing Graham.

Stretching Batum makes it horrendous.

Even if we didn't sign Hayward and did nothing it would be hard to be worse than NYK, Cleveland, and OKC, so unless we make the playoffs, our range for lottery balls is probably the same. Somewhere in the 4-10 range. Whoever misses the playoffs in the West will have better records than we do.

Unless Washington takes Garnett leap or something

[JDR720]

We don't need to go into a rebuild, we already are in one, or should be. Signing Hayward (or anyone else) to 100+ million dollar contracts practically ends that rebuild and that is why a lot of us are frustrated. Our window hasn't even started, we are a few years away at best before we are legitimate contenders.

We do not have cap flexibility anymore, we likely will not be good enough to make the playoffs and at the same time not be bad enough to get a top pick. If we want to pay some of our young players, why would we sign a 30+ year old to a massive contract?

Just because we had cap space this offseason, doesn't mean we should've spent it. Right when we finally had a light at the end of the tunnel. Ball, no bad contracts next year, a few other solid young players and in this shortened season with no fans right before a very good draft. We, yet again, can't stick to a rebuild and more than likely got stuck on the treadmill to nowhere, again.