Scavenger Hunt Draft - finals - Fred Wins!!!

[LamarMatic7]

And I can 100% honestly say my stable of perimeter defenders has a better chance than your post players.

but then again Shaq is going against double teams every time down the floor. So if you believe that this argument solely is deciding the series the question is whether Isiah and Nique are able to beat me with the free looks they get versus Jordan going against your group of good perimeter defenders.

[SWedd523]

Payton vs. Isiah debate
I actually think that despite the fact that Payton is probably only a top40 player, he could match up with every point guard out there just because of his height advantage and the fact that there hasn't been a point guard as complete as GP. Payton was able to just murder guards who might be better players, yet lacked the athleticism/height or whatever to match up against him. Just ask John Stockton.

Is Isiah better overall? Yes.
Do I agree with "Isiah is a better defender than Payton is offensively"? Hell no. Payton will be advancing the ball up the court in his signature hopping and backing down style, as well as he'll get opportunities to post Isiah up from to time. I think this match-up is a push.

Isiah is a much more dynamic player than Stockton and is able to do more than run the p&r. He also had little trouble getting his against Magic (career 21/12 in h2h), so a worse/smaller player like Payton shouldn't be much trouble.

As for Shaq - you got it wrong, man. I'll be using Gary to double team him, since Isiah was such a poor outside shooter. My bigs can't guard Shaq (although Parish was a good defender), but that's the reason I have Rodman and Jordan who will be prowling around like cheetahs ready to intercept any errand pass after GP forces Shaq to make a decision.

Let him double down and leave Isiah open. All that does is give him all sorts of room to operate and find open men or simply dribble in one step and shoot. Besides, prime Shaq was a fantastic passer out of the double team so it's not going to bother him much.

MJ vs. Whoever
You have a nice diet of two guards guarding MJ, I'll take that. Yes, they might slow him down a bit and Jordan isn't leaving Allen for double teams, that's true.

Damn right!

Webber vs. Kemp
I don't like the fact that you're making this seem so lob-sided. I think that there isn't that big of a difference between them in their primes. Not to mention the fact that I have a three-headed beast at the four spot in Webber, Wallace and Walker. As far as I could tell from basketball-reference, neither of them have really feasted on the other, with the best match-up between them coming in this double overtime game:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/box ... 00WSB.html

where they both matched each other tit for tat. You might look it up on youtube, as far as I recall Webber blocked several shots by Kemp, made a three over Kemp to force OT and genuinely won the match-up, but lost the game.

I might give Kemp a slight slight advantage, but this isn't such a definite advantage to the Reign Man, in my opinion, nor is it a series changer anyway.

I'll still go back to his playoffs run against Hakeem, Mailman, and Rodman as evidence that he gets this one.

Shaq vs. Whoever
If this were any other center, I probably would let him score and don't let the other guys involved. Yet 99-00 Shaq is too scary, so he's probably going for some 30-15 games with GP doubling.

One minor thing I can encourage my bigs to do - run the goddamn floor. There aren't many better centers than Parish and Daugherty who could finish the fastbreak with a dunk, both of them were versatile athletes. They'll get some easy jams after we rebound the ball and push the tempo.

That may typically be an advantage, but you have to remember they won't be beating the likes of Kemp, Nance, Bosh, or even Shaq down the floor.

Now, Latrell Sprewell vs. Andrew Toney.... I just don't see how you can claim that this is goes to Spree. A guy with a questionable attitude who thrived on taking questionable shots against the dude who was so good against the Boston Celtics in the playoffs that he was given the nickname - Boston Strangler. I love Spree (he's probably my favorite SG of all time, btw), but he isn't no Andrew Toney. When it comes down to coming off the bench and being a great role player in the semi-finals of the playoffs, Toney clearly has the upper hand.

My guy was a prime 21/5/5/2 guy who was named to the Second Team All Defense and First Team All-NBA over the likes of Kevin Johnson, Mitch Richmond, and your very own Gary Payton

You picked a year your guy only played 5 playoffs games, so using his career accomplishments makes no sense to me.

Makes even less sense when you want to hang his hat on career playoff production when Spree even had better numbers in the playoffs and had plenty of memorable moments in his own right... I'm sure you know how revered he is to Knicks fans for his playoffs run in that 98-99 season.

I'm not seeing the Bosh over Wallace thing, as in my opinion Sheed clearly has a better skillset and he's a whole lot tougher. If anything, he would probably try to get in Bosh's head the whole series, which would lead to Sheed being tossed and this turning into a Bosh vs Walker match-up. No reason to really argue, but again I don't see why you think this is an advantage to Bosh.

Sheed would be too busy trying to chuck shots since he feels disrespected coming off the bench. Or racking up technicals because he's pissed at MJ for talking **** to him. Or half-assing up and down the floor because he's mad Gary Payton called him a pothead.

Bosh is underrated currently and historically. The year I picked, he was good for 23/11/3/1, numbers which Sheed has never had in his career, was named to the Second Team All-NBA, something Sheed has never had in his career, and finished 7th in MVP voting, Sheed has never been higher than 14th.

I still think it's an advantage Bosh.

Daugherty vs Nance. Well, as I told you before - Nance isn't a center. He is probably on the same level as Brad, but I see this match-up going my way just because Daugherty could use his size against Nance.

I still don't understand this. You make it seem like Nance was a 6'8 Nancy boy.

Sure he gives up 2 inches to Daugherty, but Nance is a fantastic shot blocker and clearly much more athletic than Daugherty. The Nance I have is a First Team All Defensive player ahead of guys like Ewing, McHale, Moses, and Hakeem. He shouldn't have much trouble at least playing to a standstill with a guy like Daugherty.

[SWedd523]

And I can 100% honestly say my stable of perimeter defenders has a better chance than your post players.

but then again Shaq is going against double teams every time down the floor. So if you believe that this argument solely is deciding the series the question is whether Isiah and Nique are able to beat me with the free looks they get versus Jordan going against your group of good perimeter defenders.

Well by design post players are more effective than perimeter ones simply on the efficiency they provide. MJ was an insanely efficient player, but he only made 29 threes the year you picked him, so while he was awesome at 53.9, he's still giving up 35 percentage points to Shaq's 57.4%.

And Isiah really didn't have much trouble facing the top teams in 84-85.

He averaged 31 points against Boston that year, 30 against the Lakers, and 24 against the 76ers. bballref doesn't have assists or rebounds for him that year, but averaging 28 against the three best teams in the league has to account for something.


Nique NEVER had help throughout his career, was constantly facing doubles, and still managed to go for 30/8/3 in his prime.

He averaged 35/8/3 against the Champion Celtics that year, 24/7/2 against the Bucks, and 31/7/2 against the Sixers. Seriously, he took a team that featured Randy Wittman, Kevin Willis, and Doc Rivers and reached the Eastern Semis, and averaged 29/6/3 in the playoffs.

These guys are all-timers. They're going to go off if you leave them open. Lack of range be damned

[fatlever]

the poll is open. everyone, please vote. we will close voting on friday at 11PM.

[MKG14]

Voted Lamar. I think MJ and Payton > Isiah and Ray Ray AND Nique.

[fatlever]

here is the million dollar question about lamar's team... can gary payton and michael jordan get along? hmmmm....

[fatlever]

my thoughts on this matchup

payton vs thomas - slight edge goes to thomas in this matchup. i just feel that thomas was better in big moments more often than payton. thomas was better at running a team and keeping everyone happy.

jordan vs allen - edge to jordan, but as i mentioned earlier i think its closer than most think. allen can at least go back at MJ and put up 25.

rodman vs wilkens - push. i dont really love either guy as starters on their respective teams. lamar would clearly benefit from a shooter on the floor and as lamar pointed out, wilkens doesnt strike me at the type to excel in a role where he is playing off the ball. and since i feel this series is going to be more of a grind it out series swedd won't benefit from wilken's transition game as much.

webber vs kemp - push. the knock on webber was that he just could never take over a game in the 4th the way a superstar pf should. that wont be an issue for lamar who has jordan and payton, two players who are more than willing to take big shots. webber is an excellent passer and will help spread the floor. kemp is a beast, but with shaq down low he won't have as much room to operate. and like wilkens he will suffer from a slower paced series.

parish vs shaq - edge shaq. but like the jordan vs allen matchup i dont think it is a lopsided as some might think. parish is one of the best running centers of all-time. he will beat shaq down the floor on pretty much every offensive possession while playing solid defense. shaq can't keep up with parish and still expect to play 40+ minutes.

starting lineup - slight edge to swedd.

bench matchups

hardaway vs johnson - slight edge to johnson. johnson brings a calming influence to the 2nd unit and provides excellent defense. he should get minutes at both guard spots in this series. hardaway brings that element of unpredictability. he has the ability to win a game on his own if he gets hot.

toney vs sprewell - slight edge to toney. i just don't trust young spree in a big game situation. i'd lean towards playing dennis johnson minutes at sg. toney is a perfect role player for a top level playoff team.

english vs davis - slight edge to english. two of my favorite players of all-time matched up vs each other. both guys can score in bunches, but i have to give the edge to english who i feel was the better all-around player. he will be able to contribute in more ways.

wallace vs bosh - slight edge to wallace. this just might be my personal biases getting in the way here, but i have always felt that wallace was one of the most underrated players of his era. on a team that doesnt need him to score 20ppg, it just seems like he'll be able to contribute more. he is a better defender a better low post scorer and a better 3pt shooter. wallace will have no problem falling in line on this team because if his admiration for fellow unc alum jordan.

daugherty vs nance - edge daugherty. honestly this should probably be wallace vs nance and daugherty vs bosh. bosh is much better equipped to play center compared to nance. nance was 205 lbs, bosh is 228. regardless, daugherty is better than both. daugherty gives lamar a nice two-headed center that he can run at shaq. 12 fouls. and more importanly, both centers like to run. also daugherty is one of the best high post centers of the past 30 years. he call pull shaq away from the basket freeing jordan and payton to get into the paint either with drives or post ups. wallace and webber can also operate away from the basket leaving a lot of room in the paint.

end result - extremely close series. two fantastically constructed teams. great matchups all over the floor. lamar's bench helps push the series to 7 games. i have lamar winning in 7 games. no way jordan loses a game 7. not gonna happen. jordan also punches isiah thomas in the face after the series.

[MKG14]

parish vs shaq - edge shaq. but like the jordan vs allen matchup i dont think it is a lopsided as some might think. parish is one of the best running centers of all-time. he will beat shaq down the floor on pretty much every offensive possession while playing solid defense. shaq can't keep up with parish and still expect to play 40+ minutes.

I was going to disagree until I saw the bolded. Shaq definitely won't be sprinting for 40 minutes, and every minute shaq isn't on the floor is bad for SWedds team.

starting lineup - slight edge to swedd.[/
on the ray allev vs MJ thing, Allen would need to be running off screens to really be effective, and I don't think they want to run plays for Allen all day, instead they want him to hit the three in transition, move around off ball and get kickouts from Shaq. I don't think he's going to get 25 points in this lineup, simply because his role won't allow it.

bench matchups

wallace vs bosh - slight edge to wallace. this just might be my personal biases getting in the way here, but i have always felt that wallace was one of the most underrated players of his era. on a team that doesnt need him to score 20ppg, it just seems like he'll be able to contribute more. he is a better defender a better low post scorer and a better 3pt shooter.

Precisely. Bosh is kinda almost a three point threat. When he makes a three it's a surprise. When Sheed makes a three you feel like an idiot for leaving him open. That kind of floor spacing from a 4/5 spot is invaluable.

I think swedd's only elite thing on his team (in this league) is Shaq, and that Kemp doesn't really do it for me.

[SWedd523]

I think swedd's only elite thing on his team (in this league) is Shaq, and that Kemp doesn't really do it for me.

This statement is so beyond idiotic that it warrants no response other than "mkay"

[LamarMatic7]

I'll still go back to his playoffs run against Hakeem, Mailman, and Rodman as evidence that he gets this one.

Well then - how about the time they lost to the 8th seed Denver Nuggets? Denver had one Dikembe, a young Brian Williams (Bison Dele), the undersized LaPhonso Ellis and the outside shooter Rodney Rodgers, that's it. And if you watch the whole series (I've done so) Kemp is the one who chocked the worst. 15 points, 10 rebounds on 37% from the field against that front-line!? Dikembe had so much to do, yet he was able to influence Kemp that much!? If you watch all of his 32 blocks from that series on youtube (I made the video), you'll see plenty of blocks on Kemp. Matter of fact - let's take it further, if you watch game 4 and game 5, Kemp was so aware of Mutombo's presence that he would start a drive to the basket, notice Dikembe waiting and turn in the air awkwardly to kick the ball out.
So if you bring up that playoff run, I can bring up this one - the year Seattle was supposedly the team to win it all.

That may typically be an advantage, but you have to remember they won't be beating the likes of Kemp, Nance, Bosh, or even Shaq down the floor.

Please, do tell me how are they not going to beat Shaq down the field.

My guy was a prime 21/5/5/2 guy who was named to the Second Team All Defense and First Team All-NBA over the likes of Kevin Johnson, Mitch Richmond, and your very own Gary Payton

You picked a year your guy only played 5 playoffs games, so using his career accomplishments makes no sense to me.

if you're taking a hit at his playoffs achievements, let me remind you that Spree only made them once during his prime which you pointed out.
5 playoffs games? Okay, just take a look at the year before.

I'm not sure that you acknowledge that Toney was a hall of famer in the making before his career got ruined by injuries.

[LamarMatic7]

BTW, am I supposed to vote for myself?

[fatlever]

BTW, am I supposed to vote for myself?

sure. i did.

[SWedd523]

So if you bring up that playoff run, I can bring up this one - the year Seattle was supposedly the team to win it all.

The purpose is to use individual years, not careers. The individual year I picked is when he bested those great players.

That Denver series has no bearing.

if you're taking a hit at his playoffs achievements, let me remind you that Spree only made them once during his prime which you pointed out.
5 playoffs games? Okay, just take a look at the year before.

Again, one season only. Not my fault you picked one in which his team lost in the first round. The single season I have for Sprewell is better than the single season you have for Toney, simple as that.

[fatlever]

I'll still go back to his playoffs run against Hakeem, Mailman, and Rodman as evidence that he gets this one.

Well then - how about the time they lost to the 8th seed Denver Nuggets? Denver had one Dikembe, a young Brian Williams (Bison Dele), the undersized LaPhonso Ellis and the outside shooter Rodney Rodgers, that's it. And if you watch the whole series (I've done so) Kemp is the one who chocked the worst. 15 points, 10 rebounds on 37% from the field against that front-line!? Dikembe had so much to do, yet he was able to influence Kemp that much!? If you watch all of his 32 blocks from that series on youtube (I made the video), you'll see plenty of blocks on Kemp. Matter of fact - let's take it further, if you watch game 4 and game 5, Kemp was so aware of Mutombo's presence that he would start a drive to the basket, notice Dikembe waiting and turn in the air awkwardly to kick the ball out.
So if you bring up that playoff run, I can bring up this one - the year Seattle was supposedly the team to win it all.

That may typically be an advantage, but you have to remember they won't be beating the likes of Kemp, Nance, Bosh, or even Shaq down the floor.

Please, do tell me how are they not going to beat Shaq down the field.

My guy was a prime 21/5/5/2 guy who was named to the Second Team All Defense and First Team All-NBA over the likes of Kevin Johnson, Mitch Richmond, and your very own Gary Payton

You picked a year your guy only played 5 playoffs games, so using his career accomplishments makes no sense to me.

if you're taking a hit at his playoffs achievements, let me remind you that Spree only made them once during his prime which you pointed out.
5 playoffs games? Okay, just take a look at the year before.

I'm not sure that you acknowledge that Toney was a hall of famer in the making before his career got ruined by injuries.

to be fair, its not a career comparison, but comparing players from the years in which we selected them. in swedd's defense he selected the version of kemp who dominated the playoffs, not the younger immature kemp or the older fat kemp.

[SWedd523]

This is why I think picking single years is disingenuous. If I'd have known people would hold Sprewell's choking incident against him (didn't happen until years later) and Kemp's troubles (were never an issue when he was in his prime) then I wouldn't have picked them.

Oh well, justa game.




Lamar's team sucks, btw

[LamarMatic7]

So if you bring up that playoff run, I can bring up this one - the year Seattle was supposedly the team to win it all.

The purpose is to use individual years, not careers. The individual year I picked is when he bested those great players.

That Denver series has no bearing.

if you're taking a hit at his playoffs achievements, let me remind you that Spree only made them once during his prime which you pointed out.
5 playoffs games? Okay, just take a look at the year before.

Again, one season only. Not my fault you picked one in which his team lost in the first round

How can you claim that it has no bearing? It's still Shawn Kemp of the 1995-96 team that has once through that experience of 1994. And Andrew Toney is still Andrew Toney, the NBA champion who's slowly taking over the Sixers team as his teammates are getting older. As I have been saying this whole time - the individual year thing allows us to draft players in certain points of their careers. I don't absolutely agree that you draft just to acquire particular stats. You picked the 95-96 Kemp during which team he was in the peak of his game and not yet on drugs. That doesn't mean that we should take those playoff series for granted. He might as well face a team in our scavenger hunt tournament that isn't a good match-up and lose that particular match-up.

[SWedd523]

I don't know why you'd point to a previous year and hold that against him when his "current" year clearly shows a much better player. You don't find many post players better than the three he ran through in the 96 playoffs.

That's like saying, "Ah well Jordan won an average of 36 games his first three years, he would struggle 'now'"

[LamarMatic7]

I don't know why you'd point to a previous year and hold that against him when his "current" year clearly shows a much better player. You don't find many post players better than the three he ran through in the 96 playoffs.

That's like saying, "Ah well Jordan won an average of 36 games his first three years, he would struggle 'now'"

Bad argument.

Kemp had already reached his prime in '94, so we can say that during his prime he had a horrible series against that small ball Denver Nuggets team, against which he supposedly shouldn't struggle since he excelled in the up-tempo game.

Jordan's first three career years have nothing to do with him in his prime.

[fatlever]

but maybe kemp learned something from the denver series and applied it the following year to help his team get further?

[SWedd523]

I don't know why you'd point to a previous year and hold that against him when his "current" year clearly shows a much better player. You don't find many post players better than the three he ran through in the 96 playoffs.

That's like saying, "Ah well Jordan won an average of 36 games his first three years, he would struggle 'now'"

Bad argument.

Kemp had already reached his prime in '94, so we can say that during his prime he had a horrible series against that small ball Denver Nuggets team, against which he supposedly shouldn't struggle since he excelled in the up-tempo game.

Jordan's first three career years have nothing to do with him in his prime.

It's a bad argument because he couldn't have improved two years later?