Z-Rex: The Cody Zeller Thread

[Elden Payton]

The fact is that he has a better standing reach than Bennett and people are touting him as some great 4. If we want a PF Zeller has all the required length and is a great athlete. He is better suited length wise to be a PF than Bennett is and has no health issues to deal with.

This is all I'm saying.

And it's a pretty terrible argument. Having better length than a relative midget doesn't mean one is adequate himself.

"He doesn't have good enough length"

"But he has better length than the guy who has the size of a small forward"

What argument? All I'm saying is that people are saying that Bennett is big enough to play PF but Zeller isn't?

That makes absolutely no sense.

Also you always crap on posters perceptions of a prospect but never mention who you want!

EDIT-On the big board you said you'd take "the guy who has the size of a small forward #1"

[SWedd523]

I'd also imagine that he'd guard Haslem, Horford and Nicholson since Biz will guard the players you listed.

Okay I'll indulge you and list ALL of the big men who only play in our division (and get minutes).

Bismack (7'6.16 and 9'3.42)
Vucevic (7'4.5 and 9'4.5)
Nene (7'4.5 and 9'1)
Okafor (7'4 and 9'2.5)
Nicholson (7'4 and 8'11)
Bosh (7'3.5 and 9'1)
Mullens (7'1.25 and 9'3)
Horford (7'0.75 and 8'11)
LeBron (7'0.25 and 8'10.25)
Josh Smith (7'0 and 8'10.5)

Cody Zeller (6'10.75 and 8'10)


So for all intents and purposes, he'd be the 'smallest" big in the division. If you don't think it'll hurt him then that's fine, but I'm not going to pretend like it's a non-issue, especially when we have evidence of him struggling against length in the college game.

You also didn't mention that Zeller has the highest standing vert for a guy over 6'9 in over a decade...

Zeller's standing and max vert: 35.5" and 37.5"
Miles Plumlee's? 34" and 40.5"

if only combine numbers actually mattered when a player stepped on the floor...

Zeller is big for a 4 in today's small ball NBA.

see above

All I'm saying is that people are saying that Bennett is big enough to play PF but Zeller isn't?

They're both small! Again, it's silly to prop up that argument by saying he's bigger than the PF in a SF's body.

Also you always crap on posters perceptions of a prospect but never mention who you want!

EDIT-On the big board you said you'd take "the guy who has the size of a small forward #1"

I sure did.. what does that have anything to do with Zeller? You want me to say Bennett is too small too? Okay, "Bennett is too small too".

[Elden Payton]

That's my point SWedd!

Bennett is too small too, if it isn't such an issue for Bennett why is it such an issue for Zeller is what I am saying, he is in the upper-mid tier of size for a 4 but his wingspan is below average..do we discredit everything he brings to the table because of that?

[SWedd523]

That's my point SWedd!

Bennett is too small too, if it isn't such an issue for Bennett why is it such an issue for Zeller is what I am saying, he is in the upper-mid tier of size for a 4 but his wingspan is below average..do we discredit everything he brings to the table because of that?

1. Who ever said it isn't an issue for Bennett? The fact that Bennett is too small is the major reason why he isn't he consensus #1 pick. This isn't the Bennett thread though, so I don't know why a discussion on Zeller's lack of length has anything to do with some other player.

He's certainly among the TALLEST players in the league, but that doesn't really matter since guys play with their arms, not their heads. As I've already illustrated, Zeller would essentially be the smallest big man in our division (and yes, so would Bennett... it being "an issue" is not mutually exclusive).

It doesn't "discredit" everything he brings to the table but it is certainly a huge red flag considering the modern shift towards length at all positions AND is aggravated by tangible proof of him struggling against the longer defenders he faced in college (and will see on a nightly basis in the NBA).

[Elden Payton]

That's my point SWedd!

Bennett is too small too, if it isn't such an issue for Bennett why is it such an issue for Zeller is what I am saying, he is in the upper-mid tier of size for a 4 but his wingspan is below average..do we discredit everything he brings to the table because of that?

1. Who ever said it isn't an issue for Bennett? The fact that Bennett is too small is the major reason why he isn't he consensus #1 pick. This isn't the Bennett thread though, so I don't know why a discussion on Zeller's lack of length has anything to do with some other player.

He's certainly among the TALLEST players in the league, but that doesn't really matter since guys play with their arms, not their heads. As I've already illustrated, Zeller would essentially be the smallest big man in our division (and yes, so would Bennett... it being "an issue" is not mutually exclusive).

It doesn't "discredit" everything he brings to the table but it is certainly a huge red flag considering the modern shift towards length at all positions AND is aggravated by tangible proof of him struggling against the longer defenders he faced in college (and will see on a nightly basis in the NBA).

The Bennett/Zeller comparison is valid in terms of size limitations as they are projected in the same range and we are surely considering both of them, how this impacts their stock is important for our franchise and at the moment it seems that Bennett gets a pass when it is held as the biggest knock against Zeller.

Yes he is among the tallest and yes it is about the arms but as I have previously mentioned his standing vert is excellent and surely negates his average wingspan somewhat.

I agree that it is an issue and is not ideal but to call it a huge red flag is a stretch.

[BigSlam]

This isn't the Bennett thread though, so I don't know why a discussion on Zeller's lack of length has anything to do with some other player.

Thanks SWedd. We are getting sick and tired of threads getting derailed and sent off topic by the same posters over and over.

[Diop]

I've been interested in the athletic results in the past, but never used to give them much weight when selecting a favorite draft pick.

Reading DX's tweets this year, I definitely don't.


Saying that, I don't mind Zeller but I think there are more talented people in this draft.

[BeesWax]

This isn't the Bennett thread though, so I don't know why a discussion on Zeller's lack of length has anything to do with some other player.

Thanks SWedd. We are getting sick and tired of threads getting derailed and sent off topic by the same posters over and over.

Slam this was not sent off topic. He was comparing two players in one of the players threads. Sorry but it was a valid question when people bring up the debate first.

[BeesWax]

I'd also imagine that he'd guard Haslem, Horford and Nicholson since Biz will guard the players you listed.

Okay I'll indulge you and list ALL of the big men who only play in our division (and get minutes).

Bismack (7'6.16 and 9'3.42)
Vucevic (7'4.5 and 9'4.5)
Nene (7'4.5 and 9'1)
Okafor (7'4 and 9'2.5)
Nicholson (7'4 and 8'11)
Bosh (7'3.5 and 9'1)
Mullens (7'1.25 and 9'3)
Horford (7'0.75 and 8'11)
LeBron (7'0.25 and 8'10.25)
Josh Smith (7'0 and 8'10.5)

Cody Zeller (6'10.75 and 8'10)


So for all intents and purposes, he'd be the 'smallest" big in the division. If you don't think it'll hurt him then that's fine, but I'm not going to pretend like it's a non-issue, especially when we have evidence of him struggling against length in the college game.

You also didn't mention that Zeller has the highest standing vert for a guy over 6'9 in over a decade...

Zeller's standing and max vert: 35.5" and 37.5"
Miles Plumlee's? 34" and 40.5"

if only combine numbers actually mattered when a player stepped on the floor...

Zeller is big for a 4 in today's small ball NBA.

see above

All I'm saying is that people are saying that Bennett is big enough to play PF but Zeller isn't?

They're both small! Again, it's silly to prop up that argument by saying he's bigger than the PF in a SF's body.

Also you always crap on posters perceptions of a prospect but never mention who you want!

EDIT-On the big board you said you'd take "the guy who has the size of a small forward #1"

I sure did.. what does that have anything to do with Zeller? You want me to say Bennett is too small too? Okay, "Bennett is too small too".

You forgot to mention his standing reach is better than Kevin Love, Paul Milsap, and Troy Murphy and the same as Thomas Robinson. Combine that with his offensive game and athletic ability and you have the makings for a good PF. He is the best PF prospect in this draft.

[SWedd523]

Actually no, you forgot to read the part that said

ALL of the big men who only play in our division (and get minutes)

[BeesWax]

Actually no, you forgot to read the part that said

ALL of the big men who only play in our division (and get minutes)

No I read that you limited your argument to only what made it look slightly valid. The fact is you forgot to mention plenty solid 4s outside our division work just fine with less length.

[SWedd523]

Again, the fact is that I did NOT forget to mention anything. I limited my argument to the teams in our division because those are the guys he's going to be seeing more often than any other team in the league. And because I didn't feel like looking up every big across the league. I didn't know he'd be the smallest in both accounts when I started looking those numbers up. I wish I hadn't because it gives me even more cause for concern

If you have such a problem with my factual statement that his length is subpar, then please feel free to justify your stance by listing all the other big men in the league so we can see where he stands in terms of length

(However, you were wrong in saying that he has better length than Kevin Love [6'11.25 and 8'10] and Paul Millsap arguably has better overall length as well [.5" shorter reach, but 2.75" longer wingspan].)

[BeesWax]

For bigs standing reach and no step vert are the most important stats. Because of the way bigs play these come into play more often. So maybe you didn't forget you just like to tilt stats your way. His jumping ability makes him different from Emeka, Nene and Vucivic. He is a plus athlete with solid length and will fit right in and provide us what we need more than any of the other PF in this draft. His no step vert plus his length indicate he can be a good rebounder and at least be solid at disrupting driving players. His offense will be very good and he will have no problem getting shots of due to his variety of scoring methods and his ability to elevate.

[SWedd523]

For bigs standing reach and no step vert are the most important stats. Because of the way bigs play these come into play more often. So maybe you didn't forget you just like to tilt stats your way.

Again, no. I listed both wingspan and standing reach. He was smallest in both. I realize standing reach is more important for bigs (never disputed that), but don't downplay the role of wingspan in today's NBA where p&r offense is so important. A big's with a bigger wingspan would be better able to stretch out and deny passing lanes on rotations.

His jumping ability makes him different from Emeka, Nene and Vucivic.

Max Vert Reach:

Josh Smith (12'2)
Emeka (12'0.5)
Mullens (11'11.5)
Zeller (11'11.5)
Nene (11'11)
Horford (11'10.5)
Bosh (11'10)
Vucevic (11'5.5)
Nicholson (11'5.5)
Bismack (n/a)
LeBron (n/a)
So yeah, while I'd wager Bismack and LeBron get higher, his leaping ability does level the playing field.

His no step vert plus his length indicate he can be a good rebounder and at least be solid at disrupting driving players.

TRB% in college of the top bigs:

Dieng (17.5)
Adams (17.2)
Noel (16.8)
Plumlee (16.8)
Len (16.5)
Olynyk (16.5)
Bennett (16.3)
Zeller (15.8)
Withey (15.5)
Mitchell (14.6)


That obviously doesn't tell the whole story because there are a lot of externalities, but it's just something to look at.

His offense will be very good and he will have no problem getting shots of due to his variety of scoring methods and his ability to elevate.

I think he'll struggle more than you're letting on. We already have empirical evidence of him struggling against stronger/longer players in college. His post scoring is going to be iffy due to his short arms (no, you don't jump to your full height on hooks) and his jumper, while above average, doesn't have a high release point.

[SWedd523]

But I should clarify my entire purpose of this silly b&f with Sik and then you. I'm not "anti-Zeller". He has many of the tools necessary to be a good NBA player (above average mobility/athleticism and solid scoring potential to name a couple). And I'd be in full support of him if he ends up being the guy we draft.

But his (lack of) length IS an issue. Being a good combine athlete doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things. He can overcome it, but you'd be naive to think he isn't going to have a tough time adjusting to the NBA.

We could sit here and go through each of the top players' Red Flags because they each have at least one. I just think his length is a bigger issue than you do. Remember, this whole debate started with an innocent remark about him having similar length to our SG and less than the rest of our front court.

[Snidely FC]

Syracuse game. Please pass.

[BeesWax]

Won't have to face a zone like that in the NBA. He did well against Michigan, Ohio State, and Michigan State.

[JMAC3]

Coming from an Indiana fan....

I think Zeller will be a solid pro, but I do not see him becoming an allstar. If people do not think McLemore has a killer instinct then they have not seen Zeller play.

Zeller is an efficient scorer, but he does not demand the ball enough. He only had 2 games this season where he attempted more than 15 shots... He was the number one option on the team, but he struggled to consistently get touches.

Also, he is a solid rebounder, but he does not dominate the glass by any means. His offensive rebounding is not very good, but he did improve as an out of area rebounder as a sophomore. He does not dunk that much either, instead he looks to draw contact and finish and 1s.

I just think when comparing him and Bennett, Bennett has the ability to go for 25 any night and I think Zeller is too passive to do that consistently....

Zeller has yet to show his jump shot consistently in game situations as well, I would not necessarily worry about his size, because he will be more a of a powerforward.

[Elden Payton]

This isn't the Bennett thread though, so I don't know why a discussion on Zeller's lack of length has anything to do with some other player.

Thanks SWedd. We are getting sick and tired of threads getting derailed and sent off topic by the same posters over and over.

I'll take this as a dig at me which is not uncommon from you Slam.

This thread has not been derailed in any way, shape or form.

This is a valid comparison.

[Elden Payton]

But I should clarify my entire purpose of this silly b&f with Sik and then you. I'm not "anti-Zeller". He has many of the tools necessary to be a good NBA player (above average mobility/athleticism and solid scoring potential to name a couple). And I'd be in full support of him if he ends up being the guy we draft.

I never intended to have a back and forth with you SWedd and your analysis holds weight as do the numbers.

This is context and perception because with a case like Zeller it's how you look at the numbers and how prospects who are in the same tier measure up in comparison.

You have your opinion and I have mine and that's fine but we really should look at everything and not just the negatives for context.

I agree his length is subpar and that could really hinder him at the next level but I think Bennett's is supar too so how do we compare them is all.