The Tre Johnson Thread

[KingCat]

I'd rather take the guy who is a great shooter but struggles to get to the paint over the guy that is a great slasher, but has an iffy jumper, especially in today's era.

I think odds are more likely that prospects eventually bulk and and learn to attack the paint than they are likely to learn how to shoot.

It doesn't help that VJ's interior game is also statistically weak and doesn't feel like a major advantage over Tre's.

Also Tre's athletic combine numbers were excellent. He atleast has all the tools to develop a rim pressure game.

[fatlever]

I'd rather take the guy who is a great shooter but struggles to get to the paint over the guy that is a great slasher, but has an iffy jumper, especially in today's era.

I think odds are more likely that prospects eventually bulk and and learn to attack the paint than they are likely to learn how to shoot.

It doesn't help that VJ's interior game is also statistically weak and doesn't feel like a major advantage over Tre's.

Also Tre's athletic combine numbers were excellent. He atleast has all the tools to develop a rim pressure game.

very fair argument for tre over vj

[SWedd523]

I'd rather take the guy who is a great shooter but struggles to get to the paint over the guy that is a great slasher, but has an iffy jumper, especially in today's era.

I think odds are more likely that prospects eventually bulk and and learn to attack the paint than they are likely to learn how to shoot.

It doesn't help that VJ's interior game is also statistically weak and doesn't feel like a major advantage over Tre's.

Also Tre's athletic combine numbers were excellent. He atleast has all the tools to develop a rim pressure game.

I value ball handling and shot making over just about anything else in a perimeter player.

Don't care how good you can shoot. if you can't create offense, you're a role player.

Don't care how well you can slash. if you can't create offense, you're a role player.


I trust VJ more than Tre to develop and refine that capability.

[KingCat]

I'd rather take the guy who is a great shooter but struggles to get to the paint over the guy that is a great slasher, but has an iffy jumper, especially in today's era.

I think odds are more likely that prospects eventually bulk and and learn to attack the paint than they are likely to learn how to shoot.

It doesn't help that VJ's interior game is also statistically weak and doesn't feel like a major advantage over Tre's.

Also Tre's athletic combine numbers were excellent. He atleast has all the tools to develop a rim pressure game.

I value ball handling and shot making over just about anything else in a perimeter player.

Don't care how good you can shoot. if you can't create offense, you're a role player.

Don't care how well you can slash. if you can't create offense, you're a role player.


I trust VJ more than Tre to develop and refine that capability.

I actually see it as the opposite with Tre being more likely to develop ball handling and shot creating since he is further along in those skills from my eyes.

I do think VJ has the higher ceiling of the two but feel he is the kind of propespect that will require a good developmental staff to reach his potential. I know Cliff is gone, but the current staff hasn't had much of an opportunity to prove their developmental skill either way, which is why I'm kinda iffy on going for VJ.

[Emhoward]

I'd rather take the guy who is a great shooter but struggles to get to the paint over the guy that is a great slasher, but has an iffy jumper, especially in today's era.

I think odds are more likely that prospects eventually bulk and and learn to attack the paint than they are likely to learn how to shoot.

It doesn't help that VJ's interior game is also statistically weak and doesn't feel like a major advantage over Tre's.

Also Tre's athletic combine numbers were excellent. He atleast has all the tools to develop a rim pressure game.

"Tpday's Era's" being key. I think for most of NBA history I would have said the opposite. Just goes to show how much things have changed.

[MPM]

I'm a bit of a coin toss on Tre/VJ, but one of the things that I think is being overplayed in VJ's favor is his playmaking potential relative to Tre. Tre dished out 2.7 assists per game to VJ's 3.2 while carrying a much bigger scoring load. If you watch Tre's games, he is more than capable of being a secondary playmaker - has pretty solid court vision. Combine this with his off the dribble shooting and you got something (at least on one side of the court).

[JMAC3]

I'm a bit of a coin toss on Tre/VJ, but one of the things that I think is being overplayed in VJ's favor is his playmaking potential relative to Tre. Tre dished out 2.7 assists per game to VJ's 3.2 while carrying a much bigger scoring load. If you watch Tre's games, he is more than capable of being a secondary playmaker - has pretty solid court vision. Combine this with his off the dribble shooting and you got something (at least on one side of the court).

A lot of the major draft guys seem to be pushing Tre up their boards over Ace and VJ over the last week.
Heard guys at no ceilings, rafael barlowe and kevin oconner talking about Tre moving up.

[Braggins]

I actually think shooting is one of the most overrated skills for draft prospects and prospects that don't do anything besides shoot tend to be some of the riskiest and most overvalued. Its a big red flag if a guy seems like he can't shoot at all, but guys who are mid shooters but have good all around games tend to develop better than guys who shoot and do nothing else. Shooting is one of the easier skills to improve with time and reps.

I didn't watch Tre play at all this year, but when I look at his stats he seems like a guy who only produced in one aspect of the game (scoring) and when I watch his highlights it seems like a lot of shooting difficult contested middys and 3s and not much else. I just generally tend to be more skeptical of these types of players.

[fatlever]

I'm a bit of a coin toss on Tre/VJ, but one of the things that I think is being overplayed in VJ's favor is his playmaking potential relative to Tre. Tre dished out 2.7 assists per game to VJ's 3.2 while carrying a much bigger scoring load. If you watch Tre's games, he is more than capable of being a secondary playmaker - has pretty solid court vision. Combine this with his off the dribble shooting and you got something (at least on one side of the court).

A lot of the major draft guys seem to be pushing Tre up their boards over Ace and VJ over the last week.
Heard guys at no ceilings, rafael barlowe and kevin oconner talking about Tre moving up.

Yes... I watched no ceilings latest and locked on big board latest. Both had tre 3.

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[fatlever]

I actually think shooting is one of the most overrated skills for draft prospects and prospects that don't do anything besides shoot tend to be some of the riskiest and most overvalued. Its a big red flag if a guy seems like he can't shoot at all, but guys who are mid shooters but have good all around games tend to develop better than guys who shoot and do nothing else. Shooting is one of the easier skills to improve with time and reps.

I didn't watch Tre play at all this year, but when I look at his stats he seems like a guy who only produced in one aspect of the game (scoring) and when I watch his highlights it seems like a lot of shooting difficult contested middys and 3s and not much else. I just generally tend to be more skeptical of these types of players.

I guess a lot of it comes down to how much you believe in his ability to play on ball creator role, which he has apparently done at other levels just not last year. And also how much you believe that you can coach him out of some of the mid-range shots in favor of passing or driving to the rim and lastly how much you believe his athletic and physical profile would allow him to at least be a neutral Defender eventually.

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[amcoolio]

I actually think shooting is one of the most overrated skills for draft prospects and prospects that don't do anything besides shoot tend to be some of the riskiest and most overvalued. Its a big red flag if a guy seems like he can't shoot at all, but guys who are mid shooters but have good all around games tend to develop better than guys who shoot and do nothing else. Shooting is one of the easier skills to improve with time and reps.

I didn't watch Tre play at all this year, but when I look at his stats he seems like a guy who only produced in one aspect of the game (scoring) and when I watch his highlights it seems like a lot of shooting difficult contested middys and 3s and not much else. I just generally tend to be more skeptical of these types of players.

Didn't Miller do the same thing though? Albeit a bigger wing

Its really impossible to judge freshmen nowadays with how disjointed college basketball is. Tre is good at shot creation, and we simply need more of that. And playing with actual NBA players (if we ever get any, I know) will only help him more.

THat said, I don't think we overthink this and just take whoever is left out of Ace/VJ, as both offer two-way upside and their best forms of themselves would be playing minutes in the conference finals

[Braggins]

I'm a bit of a coin toss on Tre/VJ, but one of the things that I think is being overplayed in VJ's favor is his playmaking potential relative to Tre. Tre dished out 2.7 assists per game to VJ's 3.2 while carrying a much bigger scoring load. If you watch Tre's games, he is more than capable of being a secondary playmaker - has pretty solid court vision. Combine this with his off the dribble shooting and you got something (at least on one side of the court).

On a per possession basis VJ averaged +1.1 assists (4.3 vs 3.2) per 70 possessions despite having -5% less usage than Tre. VJ also had a higher assist/turnover ration. Its not a huge difference necessarily but it seems like it could be meaningful.

[Braggins]

I actually think shooting is one of the most overrated skills for draft prospects and prospects that don't do anything besides shoot tend to be some of the riskiest and most overvalued. Its a big red flag if a guy seems like he can't shoot at all, but guys who are mid shooters but have good all around games tend to develop better than guys who shoot and do nothing else. Shooting is one of the easier skills to improve with time and reps.

I didn't watch Tre play at all this year, but when I look at his stats he seems like a guy who only produced in one aspect of the game (scoring) and when I watch his highlights it seems like a lot of shooting difficult contested middys and 3s and not much else. I just generally tend to be more skeptical of these types of players.

Didn't Miller do the same thing though? Albeit a bigger wing

Its really impossible to judge freshmen nowadays with how disjointed college basketball is. Tre is good at shot creation, and we simply need more of that. And playing with actual NBA players (if we ever get any, I know) will only help him more.

THat said, I don't think we overthink this and just take whoever is left out of Ace/VJ, as both offer two-way upside and their best forms of themselves would be playing minutes in the conference finals

Miller had way better length than Tre and was a much better rebounder and defender. Ace is in some way in a similar boat because at least with him he has good tools and its easy to imagine him becoming a good defender.

I don't really have a great idea what to make of Tre because I didn't watch any of his games, so I don't want to make it sound like I'm confident hes going to suck at everything besides shooting/scoring or that I don't think he could develop, but he just seems like the type of player I tend to be a little lower on. I'd be a bit more comfortable with VJ, but I can't say that I would hate any pick of Ace, Tre, or VJ, without actually putting in the work to really watch them all in-depth.

[MPM]

I'm a bit of a coin toss on Tre/VJ, but one of the things that I think is being overplayed in VJ's favor is his playmaking potential relative to Tre. Tre dished out 2.7 assists per game to VJ's 3.2 while carrying a much bigger scoring load. If you watch Tre's games, he is more than capable of being a secondary playmaker - has pretty solid court vision. Combine this with his off the dribble shooting and you got something (at least on one side of the court).

On a per possession basis VJ averaged +1.1 assists (4.3 vs 3.2) despite having -5% less usage than Tre. VJ also had a higher assist/turnover ration. Its not a huge difference necessarily but it seems like it could be meaningful.

Not really saying they are equal facilitators - Tre is a gunner - I think my point is that folks seem to envision Tre as a black hole relative to VJ, which I think is inaccurate. Tre can pass the ball (very well at times) - he also shot the ball about 30% more than VJ, much of which was required of him in the Texas team context. Either way, like you, I'm kind of OK with any of the three which is an odd place to be. I generally have 'a guy.' I think I currently still slightly lean Ace then up in the air on Tre/VJ.

[Braggins]

I'm a bit of a coin toss on Tre/VJ, but one of the things that I think is being overplayed in VJ's favor is his playmaking potential relative to Tre. Tre dished out 2.7 assists per game to VJ's 3.2 while carrying a much bigger scoring load. If you watch Tre's games, he is more than capable of being a secondary playmaker - has pretty solid court vision. Combine this with his off the dribble shooting and you got something (at least on one side of the court).

On a per possession basis VJ averaged +1.1 assists (4.3 vs 3.2) per 70 possessions despite having -5% less usage than Tre. VJ also had a higher assist/turnover ration. Its not a huge difference necessarily but it seems like it could be meaningful.

Not really saying they are equal facilitators - Tre is a gunner - I think my point is that folks seem to envision Tre as a black hole relative to VJ, which I think is inaccurate. Tre can pass the ball (very well at times) - he also shot the ball about 30% more than VJ, much of which was required of him in the Texas team context. Either way, like you, I'm kind of OK with any of the three which is an odd place to be. I generally have 'a guy.' I think I currently still slightly lean Ace then up in the air on Tre/VJ.

There was a typo in my post fyi. Meant to say "+1.1 assists (4.3 vs 3.2) per 70 possessions".

I lean VJ then Ace then Tre. I think part of the reason I feel the way I do is because while I do agree that Hornets are in a position where they need some high upside, I also think completely whiffing on this pick would be kind of devastating since most of us are hoping this is their last high pick for a while unless they get big time lottery luck. VJ seems like the least likely to completely whiff.

[luciano-davidwesley]

I'd rather take the guy who is a great shooter but struggles to get to the paint over the guy that is a great slasher, but has an iffy jumper, especially in today's era.

I think odds are more likely that prospects eventually bulk and and learn to attack the paint than they are likely to learn how to shoot.

It doesn't help that VJ's interior game is also statistically weak and doesn't feel like a major advantage over Tre's.

Also Tre's athletic combine numbers were excellent. He atleast has all the tools to develop a rim pressure game.

Very fair points all other things being equal but you've only addressed 50% of the game. What about when we don't have the ball? Johnson has a rep for barely trying on the defensive end. I admit I have not dived into his game in any detail at this stage though.

I'm just very averse to drafting a guy who will be a major negative defensively.

So I'm currently

VJ
Ace
Tre

This could change as I delve into things more with each guy.

[fatlever]

Read on Twitter

[fatlever]

https://www.reddit.com/r/CharlotteHornets/comments/1kxxxv6/tre_johnson_fans_please_rise_up/

per discussion by doug on today's show

is tre the best of all worlds?

more upside than vj/kon
safer than ace

[Bassman]

https://www.reddit.com/r/CharlotteHornets/comments/1kxxxv6/tre_johnson_fans_please_rise_up/

per discussion by doug on today's show

is tre the best of all worlds?

more upside than vj/kon
safer than ace

I just think Tre’s defense is weak, and potentially a liability at NBA level. For having good size at SG he gets eaten up on screens, trails plays at times and struggles to maintain consistency as an on ball defender. Maybe he was exerting himself so much offensively at Texas he just coasted on D, but it shows up regularly during game breakdowns. He could get better and probably will improve some, but it doesn’t seem part of his DNA.

But no doubt Tre is a strong shooter and scorer. Can’t be certain on how VJ will turn out on that end. Edgecombe got handled by Duke and some other teams. He didn’t create well enough to overcome some defenses, and it only gets tougher going forward.

[JustBuzzin]

I think Tre is my guy if Bailey is not available. I just love his shot creation ability. We have to have players who can score given our injury history with Melo/Miller. Tre flat out get buckets.