Bobcats Picks Discussion (#9, #19, #39)

[countryboi]

I am not feeling twin1 at all.....i just dont see were he fits in our line up honestly we really need him to be a SF cause that is the thinnest position we have.

[bobcats3wallace]

You know what? To start with I wasn't so hot on the Twin #1 idea but, providing we can team him up with a defensive 5, I wouldn't be that opposed to drafting him #9 either - especially considering he is thought of as the best offensive post player in this draft.

Just means we would have to trade T2 IMO - and providing we got fair return, I would be ok with that.

Too many variables in a pick like that when you could pick Leonard or Klay Thompson and fill a need right off the bat.

Again, the Bobcats keep stressing shooting. Shooting, shooting shooting. And how can you not be stressing that given what the Bobcats did last year on offense? So your sitting there at 9 and you not only have probably the best 3 point shooter in this draft but he also fills a need on the wing for you. Not to mention he brings versatility to play SF or SG. Leonard is a nice player, but he doesn't provide this team with a great shooting ability. If you have an option of Klay Thompson at 9 i'm not sure how you pass it up. Especially not for a guy in Morris who you would then have to reform your roster just to fit him in.

Needless to say, I'm gladd that Klay Thompson is still a constant in Bobcats talk.

[bobcats3wallace]

Very interesting what Chad Ford said in his Chat yesterday. Loved the Cho hire and feels it is the step to get Charlotte out of the basement on his Future Pwer Ranking.

As for #9, he says Charlotte is focusing on 4 right now: Marcus Morris, Klay Thompson, Kemba Walker and Kawhi Leonard. *The Kemba one surprised me as I thought it would have been Burks from what we have heard.

Nice find. I think Kemba is a dream pick for MJ. I also understand why they like Leonard, and he would be a solid pick at 9. I'm not even sure if Leonard came in for a workout, did he? If he did I don't remember Silas really talking a lot about him. The two guys that Silas REALLY harped on were Morris and Thompson. Given what our GM and now President keep saying about shooting and the fact that Silas seemed to really like his versatility I really think that out of those three (assuming Kemba is gone) Klay Thompson would be the pick.

[Stun704]

Leonard came in with J.Ham and others, it was the workouts Brooks and Burks sat out on.. long story short Ham owned Leonard that's why we're inviting Ham back for a 2nd workout.

[bobcats3wallace]

Leonard came in with J.Ham and others, it was the workouts Brooks and Burks sat out on.. long story short Ham owned Leonard that's why we're inviting Ham back for a 2nd workout.

Okay, thanks. I thought he had to of had a workout. I'm guessing that Leonard will not be the pick based on that and the fact there was next to no chatter on him following his workout. I think Leonard very well could be the next Wallace but we need a SF with an outside shot to put next to Hendo. I've seen kemba start to slip lately and it's quite possible he could slip to 8, but not to 9. Not as long as the Pistons are sitting there. I think it will come down to Klay Thompson, Marcus Morris, and Marshon Brooks for the Bobcats. Then Jordan Hamilton probably just on the outside looking in, at least at 9.

[doc.end]

You know what? To start with I wasn't so hot on the Twin #1 idea but, providing we can team him up with a defensive 5, I wouldn't be that opposed to drafting him #9 either - especially considering he is thought of as the best offensive post player in this draft.

Just means we would have to trade T2 IMO - and providing we got fair return, I would be ok with that.

From Washington board - a good read there - their draft thread is going abotu comparing Veselý and Marcus Morris as SF for Wizards for a while, that's why I'm lurking there, I concur he would be a fit there. Nice thoughtful posts from WizarDynasty; with bit of glass full view regarding Wizards but still. Quoting one of them.

So four dimensions to be a shutdown small forward. This type of player is needed for a championship squad.
1--Standing reach to challenge shot. 9'0 plus. 2-- Low center of gravity and forearm strength while moving with strength to bump a player off balance without being called for a foul--bump with little arm movement. 3--Foot recovery speed after challenging a wide open players shot and forcing him to drive but still being able to keep up with him after he puts the ball on the floor (this is not lateral agility but foot reaction speed based on reading an offensive players foot position after he pump fakes and reacting correctly with your own foot position to deny him an offensive advantage after his fake. The quicker you are at reading and shifting your feet, the greater your chance at neutralizing the offensive advantage he gained from being wide open. 4--Raw lateral speed or ability to close off your man's driving lane before he gets into the paint.

I would feel better about Vesely if he had a skill beyond running hard and jumping high. From all the highlights I've seen, and limited game footage, he doesn't seem to have a tangible basketball skillset.

That worries me, a lot.

I've ranted this before and you guys are going to have to hear me rant this again.

Athletic ablity insofar as running and jumping are so overrated.

And I'm tired of everyone talking about the OKC model. You know what model I want? The San Antonio model. The Dallas Model (of this year). Heck, even the Lakers model (yeah, I give you that they have Kobe).

Look at the list of NBA champions.

2011 Dallas
2010 Lakers
2009 Lakers
2008 Cs
2007 Spurs
2006 Heat
2005 Spurs

Nobody in that group with a real run and jump squad. But they're all smart. Coached well. Lakers win back-to-back with Derek Freaking Fisher at point. Dallas with Jason "old man" Kidd.

Smarts wins championships. Heart wins championships. Basketball IQ wins championships.

THAT'S what's most important. I don't care if it's a reach - but if the Wiz drafted the guy who tested out to have the best combination of basketball IQ and worth ethic, I'd be happy.

Kidd is one of the best defensive guards of all time.

Kidd is the genius behind the mavericks. He would easily be one of the best coaches in the league if he retired.
Jason Terry has always been a gilbert arenas type scorer with no defense.
tyson chandler has always been a dominant rebounder and defensive player. He just had knee injuries that plague him until this year with mavs.
Marion has always been a two way player at the small forward spot. I have always said that Haywood is a great backup center which he proved to be with the mavs.
Obviously Barea developed an outstanding IQ playing with one of the smartest players ever in the nba in jason kidd.
Dirk has outstanding size for a powerforward which is the main reason why he is dominant. Had he been 6'8 instead of 7' plus he wouldn't be nearly as dominant.
Basketball IQ with poor physical defensive ability on defense...you can't get away with those traits unless you have a tremendous size advantage offensively. Marcus Morris does not have a significant size advantage at 6'8 with an average standing reach for a small forward and absolutely no lateral defensive ability or shotblocking.
He has dirk's game but is 5 inches shorter. Dirk can get away with his game because he has the size with no shotblocking to battle on the block. Marcus Morris main job as a small forward is to contest perimeter shots and stay in front of penetrating players out on the perimeter.
The only way Marcus could get away with having slow feet on defense is to make up for his slow feet by being able to play further away from his man due to absurdly above average standing reach.
Unfortunately there are no medical procedures to make M. Morris arms longer or to make his leg muscle react instantaneous to fake pump and drives that guards use on kick outs from a point guards dish.
M.Morris is the same category has Jamison. He would be nice as a scoring boost coming off the bench but if he is your longterm starter you will get murdered defensively against elite teams. same thing with D.Williams. He may be trying to sale himself as a small forward offensively but he has show zero ability to shutdown other small forwards out on the perimeter.
Small forwards make their living playing defense out on the perimeter and play erasor using extraordinary length to force a perimeter player to change his natural shot mechanics and closing speed to disrupt three point shots out on the perimeter. Footspeed and the strength using slight forearm nudges to redirect and knock a driving perimeter player off balance and off initial driving lane without being called for the foul and high physical motor for scrapping for long rebounds.
Morris has no lateral foot speed to speak off. He doesn't have length to challenge perimeter shots. he doesn't have low center of gravity and strength to knock quick driving guards off balance without being called for a foul.
D.Williams has decent length for changing shot mechanics on perimeter (1) but he doesn't have low center of gravity strength to redirect driving perimeter players bending his knees (0) , his combine score says that he has decent footspeed to match shutdown driving lanes(1). He seems to not have quick foot recovery speed to challenge perimeter shooters forcing a perimeter player to put the ball on the floor and then still be able to force them into a bad driving angle to the basket. (2 out 4)
Vesely has outstanding length to change shot mechanics of perimeter shooters on nearly every possession 1pt, he has average footspeed for a small forward closing out on shots but nothing elite when going against the quickest player .5 and doesn't have low center of gravity and forearm strength to redirect a perimeter players driving lane. He has pretty decent lateral speed shutting off driving lanes. 1 (2.5 out of 4).
Singleton has excellent low center of gravity and strength to redirect a driving perimeter player, he also has pretty decent foot recovery speed when closing out out perimeter shooters and still forcing them into bad driving angles to the basket (this isn't lateral speed). he doesn't have outstanding length to change shot mechanics on a shot. He does have a excellent lateral speed to cut off driving lanes. (3 out of 4).
M.Morris Doesn't have length. Doesn't have a low center of gravity and forearm strength to redirect a perimeter players off balance and off their driving lane. Doesn't have the footspeed to recover after challenging an open perimeter players shot. He doesn't have the raw lateral speed to cut off a penetrating guards driving lane. (0 out of 4)
So four dimensions to be a shutdown small forward.
1--Standing reach to challenge shot. 9'0 plus. 2-- Low center of gravity and forearm strength while moving with strength to bump a player off balance without being called for a foul--bump with little arm movement. 3--Foot recovery speed after challenging a wide open players shot and forcing him to drive but still being able to keep up with him after he puts the ball on the floor 4--Raw lateral speed or ability to close off your man's driving lane before he gets into the paint.

[ohara]

Interesting note from Chad Ford that makes me rather nervous. Says Portland wants Kemba Walker, and will dangle Andre Miller. He has a 7.8 ,mil contract that is Non-Guaranteed if waived by 6/29. Assuming Kemba falls to us at #9, with that kind of salary relief, do you think MJ would consider trading #9 for Miller and #21? Just reading that and knowing of the deal we made for the Dust Chip and the Crash trade, it would be something he might end up considering, and it just gave me an uneasy feeling. What if they took Diop and #9 for Miller and #21? Now that would be more enticing. Losing $14 mil off the payroll and still having #19 and #21 sounds like something that would interest MJ, no?

[countryboi]

how do you say you want to "collect assets" and then two weeks later trade the 9th pick for cap space...that would be a very bobcats move.

[Marvel]

^Yeah, going by what Cho's vision is, what he said about collecting assets and the mere fact we're in a rebuild, there's no way trading our 9th for a declining veteran makes sense.

And prospects coming in for 2nd workouts doesn't necessarily mean it's a good thing...does it?
You can like a guy straight off the bat, 1st time - last time type guys. You don't need 2 workouts to determine whether or not you like Irving or Derrick Williams.

They may be targeting Hamilton at 19. Hence the 2nd workout.

[JMAC3]

I really think Klay Thompson is the guy at 9. He has the size to play both the 2 and 3. He Spreads the floor with outstanding range. His release is crazy quick and he is one of the most accurate shooters in college. He could come in and start at SG next year until Hendo gets back and then we can move him to the three once we get ride of Jack. At 19 we can grab the best player available. Same goes with 39th. I would defiantly try to work that up into the first round, but that will be difficult.

[JMAC3]

I really think if Kemba falls to us at 9 then we will take him. I do not like the pick, but I think that we will end up taking him and seeing what he does. If we were to draft Kemba I would try to package our other two picks together to get Klay Thompson because he would benefit from Kemba's ability to get into the lane for drive and kick threes. I just do not see Kemba lasting I could see Detroit dealing its pick to somebody if he were still available.

[BigSlam]

^Yeah, going by what Cho's vision is, what he said about collecting assets and the mere fact we're in a rebuild, there's no way trading our 9th for a declining veteran makes sense.

Cap space is an asset.

If we traded #9 and Gana or Diaw for Miller then it would be instant cap space.

We wouldn't be trading for Miller the declining vet, we would be trading for cap space.

[Jaruff]

^Yeah, going by what Cho's vision is, what he said about collecting assets and the mere fact we're in a rebuild, there's no way trading our 9th for a declining veteran makes sense.

And prospects coming in for 2nd workouts doesn't necessarily mean it's a good thing...does it?
You can like a guy straight off the bat, 1st time - last time type guys. You don't need 2 workouts to determine whether or not you like Irving or Derrick Williams.

They may be targeting Hamilton at 19. Hence the 2nd workout.

Yea, but if Cho feels that he can get the same caliber player at 21 that he can at nine, you make that deal and shed salary.

I mean, when you look at 10-30, a lot of those guys have shuffled in the past month. Brooks has regularly been in the 20-25 range and now he's in the lotto. Burks has been in the top ten but I've seen him as low as 17.

If you can shed Diop's salary AND get a player of roughly the same caliber, I think you do it. If Kemba drops to nine and Portland fires, do the deal. Take the 21st, hustle them for the second rounder and/or rights to one of their Euros, and go from there.

[ohara]

How about this curve ball. I posted earlier about the ESPN Magazine article where players picked for their teams in the Lottery. Hendo picked Chris Singleton for his defense and said his offense is also good and getting better. Well, today Ryen Rusillo had Chad Ford on his radio show and they discussed the latest on the draft and Lottery. Ryen commented that people seem to have Marcus Morris pegged for Charlotte. Chad was very wary of that and mentioned that when he spoke with Bobcat scouts, they seemed to be very high on - Chris Singleton. Love his defense, offense is underrated, and getting better.

[BigSlam]

What if we made the Miller trade and it looks something like:

#9 and Diop
for
#21 and Miller

and then we waive Miller creating an additional $7mil in cap space on top of the $13mil or so we get from Przybilla and MoPete coming off the books creating around $20mil of instant cap space.

Then with that cap space, we do one of three things:

1. Sign Marc Gasol to a serious offer sheet
2. Phone the Jazz and see if they are taking Kanter 3rd overall and see if we can take Big Al off them
3. Apply the same above to the Clippers and Kaman

Then at #19 we draft who ever drops out of Burks, Brooks, Thompson or Hamilton (assuming one of the drops) and then we take BPA at #21.

Walking away from draft night with Big Al, Burks and Hamilton wouldn't be so bad!

[BigSlam]

How about this curve ball. I posted earlier about the ESPN Magazine article where players picked for their teams in the Lottery. Hendo picked Chris Singleton for his defense and said his offense is also good and getting better. Well, today Ryen Rusillo had Chad Ford on his radio show and they discussed the latest on the draft and Lottery. Ryen commented that people seem to have Marcus Morris pegged for Charlotte. Chad was very wary of that and mentioned that when he spoke with Bobcat scouts, they seemed to be very high on - Chris Singleton. Love his defense, offense is underrated, and getting better.

Ya, but if I am Hendo - especially considering he is on crutches for 4-6 months - I'm not about to advocate my team drafting a player that plays the same position as me (Burks, Thompson, Brooks) in a mock draft.

[bobcats3wallace]

^Yeah, going by what Cho's vision is, what he said about collecting assets and the mere fact we're in a rebuild, there's no way trading our 9th for a declining veteran makes sense.

Cap space is an asset.

If we traded #9 and Gana or Diaw for Miller then it would be instant cap space.

We wouldn't be trading for Miller the declining vet, we would be trading for cap space.

Exactly. Cap Space is the biggest asset in many ways. You can do anything with cap space and this would provide instant cap space. Also, you have to remember, this draft is not very top heavy but it is very deep. And like Slam said, your not trading for a declining veteran. Miller would never play here in Charlotte, his contract would be terminated. We would just want the cap space.

Now, on to the realistic part. We are currently sitting at 50 million. If we traded Diop and number 9 then we would be getting rid of 7 million this season and 7.3 next season. That would lower our salary number to 43 this year and 21 the year after. Last years salary cap was at 58 million, so if it was anything close to that then we would be sitting about 15 million UNDER the cap. Which that 15 million is money we can do anything with. Then of course the following year we would be so far under we wouldn't know what to do with it. Anyway, enough of the numbers, now on to scenarios. I'm not sure that Slam's scenario's would be the best for us. Personally I would take the two draft picks, I would sign some low key short term (2 year max) deals, and wait for that big summer where we have only 28 million committed.

Back to the draft. If we have picks 19 and 21 then there is still likely to be very good talent available. For example we may just be able to snatch Jordan Hamilton at 19 and still get Nikola Vucevic at 21. If you told me we could trade Diop for cap space and walk away with Jordan Hamilton and Vucevic I would say hell yes. You would walk away from the draft with a lineup as follows:
DJ/Liv/??
Hendo/Carroll
Jack/Hamilton
Diaw/Thomas/DJW/Najera
Vucevic/??

Then you have basically your same young core, still have 2 very solid players, and have a ton of cap space to use WISELY. Having said all this though, I highly doubt that Kemba would get past Detroit at 8 and even if he does we all know MJ has a secret obsession with Kemba. I doubt MJ would trade away the pick if he could get Kemba....

[ZackAttack23]

Here's my latest mock draft! http://www.nbadraft.net/nba_mock_drafts ... fs;twitter

[BigSlam]

Here's my latest mock draft! http://www.nbadraft.net/nba_mock_drafts ... fs;twitter

Looks good Zack. The only questions I have:

- Twin #1 to Houston when they already have Scola?
- Hamilton to the Pacers with Granger and George holding down the wings?
- Interesting that you have Valanciunas and Motiejunas taking such a hit - what's the reason?

I like Biyombo to the Suns. Tristan Thompson and Greg Monroe sure would be a good front court foundation for the Pistons too and I agree that Faried would be awesome for the Knicks playing next to Amare and doing the grunt work while Amare and Melo can continue to look pretty.


All in all a cool mock though. Thanks for sharing.

[ZackAttack23]

Here's my latest mock draft! http://www.nbadraft.net/nba_mock_drafts ... fs;twitter

Looks good Zack. The only questions I have:

- Twin #1 to Houston when they already have Scola?
- Hamilton to the Pacers with Granger and George holding down the wings?
- Interesting that you have Valanciunas and Motiejunas taking such a hit - what's the reason?

I like Biyombo to the Suns. Tristan Thompson and Greg Monroe sure would be a good front court foundation for the Pistons too and I agree that Faried would be awesome for the Knicks playing next to Amare and doing the grunt work while Amare and Melo can continue to look pretty.


All in all a cool mock though. Thanks for sharing.

Thanks. To answer your questions, here are my answers ... first I picked Marcus to the Rockets because I feel he could play more of a SF role there. I know they have Patterson and Scola, but still. I picked Hamilton to the Pacers because I see him more like a SG and he could fill in nicely there. Also because I have a sneaky feeling that Granger isn't the long term answer at SF. The last question you have is about Jonas and Donatas. Well I think it's obvious why I have them so low. Contracts. That's all I need to say.