Signed By Indiana - The Jeremy Lamb Thread

[yosemiteben]

Last time I checked, we have a top 5 defense in the 4th quarter, so if Lin is in the closing group that should only help his case

Just because we have a top defense as a whole in Q4 doesn't mean we hold offenses to a lower efficiency than our second unit does. Which makes perfect sense, because generally teams play their best lineups at the end of games, so giving up a higher DRTG could still be excellent relative to the rest of the league in that situation.

[yosemiteben]

I went back and read the exchange between you and 'catch20two'. Nowhere does he say that we're a poor rebounding team or question the veracity of your claim.

If you reinvented the definition of the word 'skew' you'd be right.

[mrknowitall215]

Do you think I am making up the view that DRPM is a better metric for bigs than guards? Go bring that up in the stats boards and see what response you get.

Do you think I am making up the view that DRTG is flawed when applied on an individual basis generally, and especially to a player that plays limited minutes against second units? Go bring that up in the stats boards and see what response you get.

I'm making a argument that there's not just one, but a abundance of defensive metrics that support the team performing better defensively on the floor with Lamb than the aforementioned. My stance is that you only use these metrics when they are convenient to your narrative, which would mean that you're hypocritical and contradicting to the very metrics that you use as a platform of evidence for your beliefs

You keep magnifying the flaw of these stats in this vein, but you'll use the strength of these stats (DRPM, DRating, etc.) the very moment you want to push a narrative

Give me the best defensive stat for wing defenders, so I can use that as a metric to measure the team's defensive performance with Lamb on the floor versus Lin and Daniels at the SG position

[yosemiteben]

As for Daniels, I already pointed out that no one is really saying he's the superior defender. He's playing because his shooting is ridiculously more efficient and he's been much better at shooting from outside.

As for Lin, if you can invent a stat that normalizes defensive impact against bench players to impact against starters, I'm guessing every coach and analytics group in the league would love for you to give them a call. I don't know how to do that.

Do you at least recognize the flaw in using the DRTG stat to compare Lamb and Lin, or do I just get to be called hypocritical and disingenuous again?

[HornetJail]

Give me the best defensive stat for wing defenders, so I can use that as a metric to measure the team's defensive performance with Lamb on the floor versus Lin and Daniels at the SG position

The eye test.

I don't think Daniels is any better on defense than Lamb. Their defense is a wash. Daniels is playing over Lamb because he's shooting almost 19% better from three. I like Lamb as a future piece, but his lack of shooting is keeping us from playing him right now since we have a way better jump shooter behind him. I wish we'd acquired a PG version of him as well for a certain somebody that is also struggling badly.

[mrknowitall215]

As for Daniels, I already pointed out that no one is really saying he's the superior defender. He's playing because his shooting is ridiculously more efficient and he's been much better at shooting from outside.

As for Lin, if you can invent a stat that normalizes defensive impact against bench players to impact against starters, I'm guessing every coach and analytics group in the league would love for you to give them a call. I don't know how to do that.

Do you at least recognize the flaw in using the DRTG stat to compare Lamb and Lin, or do I just get to be called hypocritical and disingenuous again?

It's all hypocritical & disingenuous because a player can only play against the competition that's placed before him whether if it's starters or bench players. So theoretically without saying because it'll denounce everything you're posting, you're trying to tell me that Lamb has played defense well against 2nd units since that's what the defensive metrics are stating. Remember, there's more than one defensive metric that states this, at least 3 or more

[catch20two]

As for Daniels, I already pointed out that no one is really saying he's the superior defender. He's playing because his shooting is ridiculously more efficient and he's been much better at shooting from outside.

As for Lin, if you can invent a stat that normalizes defensive impact against bench players to impact against starters, I'm guessing every coach and analytics group in the league would love for you to give them a call. I don't know how to do that.

Do you at least recognize the flaw in using the DRTG stat to compare Lamb and Lin, or do I just get to be called hypocritical and disingenuous again?

It's all hypocritical & disingenuous because a player can only play against the competition that's placed before him whether if it's starters or bench players. So theoretically without saying because it'll denounce everything you're posting, you're trying to tell me that Lamb has played defense well against 2nd units since that's what the defensive metrics are stating. Remember, there's more than one defensive metric that states this, at least 3 or more

Finally someone who's not slurping every decision Cliff make. I said the same thing. Yosemite use these stats when he want to make a point and then dismiss them when they don't say what he want it to say. It's annoying. When I'm wrong about the eye test I back down because the stats don't lie if that's what's happening. Either way I understand Lamb's decrease in minutes with Lee ballin. I just don't understand it with Daniels who's a lesser defender no matter what people tell me just like PJ was. As long as we keep winning tho it's no biggie to me. I just see the cracks and how bad our bench has been. I'm hoping we get the bench going before the playoffs.

[mrknowitall215]

As for Daniels, I already pointed out that no one is really saying he's the superior defender. He's playing because his shooting is ridiculously more efficient and he's been much better at shooting from outside.

As for Lin, if you can invent a stat that normalizes defensive impact against bench players to impact against starters, I'm guessing every coach and analytics group in the league would love for you to give them a call. I don't know how to do that.

Do you at least recognize the flaw in using the DRTG stat to compare Lamb and Lin, or do I just get to be called hypocritical and disingenuous again?

It's all hypocritical & disingenuous because a player can only play against the competition that's placed before him whether if it's starters or bench players. So theoretically without saying because it'll denounce everything you're posting, you're trying to tell me that Lamb has played defense well against 2nd units since that's what the defensive metrics are stating. Remember, there's more than one defensive metric that states this, at least 3 or more

Finally someone who's not slurping every decision Cliff make. I said the same thing. Yosemite use these stats when he want to make a point and then dismiss them when they don't say what he want it to say. It's annoying. When I'm wrong about the eye test I back down because the stats don't lie if that's what's happening. Either way I understand Lamb's decrease in minutes with Lee ballin. I just don't understand it with Daniels who's a lesser defender no matter what people tell me just like PJ was. As long as we keep winning tho it's no biggie to me. I just see the cracks and how bad our bench has been. I'm hoping we get the bench going before the playoffs.

It's not a big deal to me either. I'm just asking for some consistency. I dislike presumptions and perceptions that don't have statistical backing, especially on this forum where it's used as gold

[catch20two]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/hornets/status/710242425302810625[/tweet]

[Eoghan]

I get people question Lamb's defense, but I don't get Daniel is the solution. I feel Daniel is even worse defensively than Lamb somehow. Am I the only one feel that way?

I feel like Cliff's problem with Lamb is that he regularly makes mistakes rather than D in general.

Same here. Lamb could look like a defensive guru in every statistical category and it wouldn't matter b/c all Cliff remembers is Lamb falling asleep on that backdoor cut.

[chabber]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/hornets/status/710242425302810625[/tweet]

Lamb, Lin and Kaminsky. I watch this every game. So fun. They didn't get it all though, the whole thing last about 20 seconds.

Also count me as someone who wants Lamb back. Should have put him in tonight to just see what he had. The regulars were just not all there tonight.

[mrknowitall215]

Interesting stat I ran into by mistake...

Jeremy Lamb is 2nd in the NBA on points per possession via pick-and-roll situations (minimum 100 possessions) only behind Stephen Curry

http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/ball-handler/?sort=PPP&dir=1&CF=Poss*GE*100&Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

[JDR720]

i think you have to put context to advanced stats, almost all of them are flawed in some way.


defensive plus minus has lamb 16th. which is tied with Courtney Lee and barely behind Nic and better than Middleton. i dont think anyone thinks Lamb is close to Lee on defense or better than Middleton.

another defensive plus minus goof. Cody is 31st, which is too low but thats not even the goof it has Albus at 36. anyone with a working brain knows Al is god awful on defense.

lamb's FG overall defense among guards is 41.9 which is good but that would tell you he is better than Butler, Iman Shumpert, Thompson and Iggy to name a few, which he clearly isn't. and im pretty sure it doesn't take into account when a player goofs and leaves someone open.

lambs defensive rating is 104 (b-ball ref) which is better than Klay and equal to tony allen. (Al's is 102).


you cant measure defense like you can offense, the best way to determine if a player is a good defender or not is watching him play not looking at flawed stats.

[catch20two]

So we're saying that defensive advanced stats mean nothing? Because somehow Lamb bamboozled the flawed advanced statistics system to overrate him as a defender in 3 separate metrics. Because somehow Lamb's running around like a chicken with his head cut off defense make our opponents shoot low percentages. These statistics has hoodwinked us.

[yosemiteben]

I would be a lot more convinced of the reliability of those stats if the flaws that have been discussed at length were addressed and explained.

[qiantom]

I think the defensive advanced stats still get it right in terms of the big picture. The players that rank higher tend to be better defenders than those that rank lower. But if your focus is one particular player, the stats may be way off.
Every team has a different defensive schema, such as how to defend the pnr, when to switch, when to rotate and there is no way for the stats to know who missed the assignments. The stats are probably not even able to tell when one loses his man completely and a teammate picks up his man. So in Lamb's case, if Clifford thinks he is blowing his assignments and is a bad defender, I have to believe he is.

[Zombiesonics]

Looks like Clifford is trying to develop lamb into a better defender. Short leash . Still a little strange since the kid did help win a ton of games earlier in the year and was playing well by all metrics .

lambs errors stick out so much on defense because they are correctable and have to do with lack of effort . Playing Daniels over him just for shooting is extremely myopic imo though

[TTNN]

As for Daniels, I already pointed out that no one is really saying he's the superior defender. He's playing because his shooting is ridiculously more efficient and he's been much better at shooting from outside.

As for Lin, if you can invent a stat that normalizes defensive impact against bench players to impact against starters, I'm guessing every coach and analytics group in the league would love for you to give them a call. I don't know how to do that.

Do you at least recognize the flaw in using the DRTG stat to compare Lamb and Lin, or do I just get to be called hypocritical and disingenuous again?

Sorry to jump in the discussion, I didn't get back to check what was the history about the discussion, but just some thought directly coming out of your post here, hopefully you won't feel I'm against you here.

As for Daniels, I already pointed out that no one is really saying he's the superior defender. He's playing because his shooting is ridiculously more efficient and he's been much better at shooting from outside.

You might want to check his shooting this past 5 games when he was given meaningful time. Not impressing at all. Troy is a player need play designed for him. When he was giving longer PT and no play set up for him, he become a liability, I don't trust his BBall IQ, and he is just not the same level player as Lamb. All the problem Lamd has, Troy has it too.

As for Lin, if you can invent a stat that normalizes defensive impact against bench players to impact against starters, I'm guessing every coach and analytics group in the league would love for you to give them a call. I don't know how to do that.

NBA.com added a lot more data from sportsVU, thus there are tons of other ways to look at defense other than DRPM. It just need a lot of digging and putting things together

Here is one example for you: Lin's defensive dash board after all star break. http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/202391/tracking/defense/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&SeasonSegment=Post%20All-Star

Here they basically track each shot and defined the closest defender as the player defending the shot, and it counts the results out of it. So it is not a good indication of team defense, but it sure gives a good indication on how good you are defending shots going at you. It counts a player's defensive FG%, but also taken account of the offender's FG%, and gives out a Diff%, that's the best way I could think about taking into consideration of the offender capability, (thus even better way by simply segregates with starter or bench player). So if your diffensive FG% is very good, but the player you defending normally had lousy FG%, your Diff% won't be good either. So, here, I think this is one of the defensive data you could use that normalizes defensive impact against bench players and starter players.

In addition to this, NBA.com play type also list each player how good they are defending different playtype. I did an analysis about this team's defense before all star break and wrote a fan post here: http://www.atthehive.com/2016/2/14/10990506/hornets-defense-by-play-type, (hope it is okay to post link to other sites on this board).

If you look at Troy's defense, and look at Lamb's, no coach will play Troy over Lamb. (I know the post was long, just focus on the two tables at the end is good enough).

However, even Lamb was doing good defensively pre-all star break, he was horrible after all star break. eye-test is pretty obvious, and for those who would like to have number support, here it is:

Pre-All Star: -4% Diff%, negative in most categories. http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/203087/tracking/defense/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PerMode=Totals&SeasonSegment=Pre%20All-Star

Post-All Star: 7.3% Diff%, big positive in most categories. http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/203087/tracking/defense/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PerMode=Totals&SeasonSegment=Post%20All-Star

So I was not surprise coach play Troy over Lamb, but I was really surprise keep playing Troy this long. I thought it was only try to send a message thing, but anyway, Lamb benching is not really undeserving. Still, I hope coach will stop this experiment, and shift it back from Troy to Lamb.

[LamarMatic7]

has Bonnell asked Clifford anything about this?

[TinmanZBoy]

i think this Alfense affected Lamb the most, Lin the second most...without Al, either Spencer or Cody would set good screens for guards to attack, there are a lot movements, open lanes, guards are in a good rhythm to shoot too... with Al, basically guards have to feed Al in the post first, then clear the side let Al iso...when the double team came, one guard will wait for AL passing off double team, either feed Al again after the re-post or shoot threes, or sometimes guards will cut in the lane...
the second unit is still getting used to playing with Al...they had established a certain way to play all season, all of sudden they have to change and the lack of ball movement on Alfense does not help either.... replacing lamb with Daniels has not worked either, but I guess coach will give extra games to see if it will improve.... I actually really hoped Cody sit last game, let Al play with starters, then either Psycho-T or Spencer would play with the second unit and see how it went, it never happened....