Don't Be Hurtin' Lin - The Jeremy Lin Thread 2

[Flip Murray]

Some people criticize Lin fans they do not have patient on Cliff. Really? We have seen how Lin's three former coaches Woodson, McHale, Scott had mistreated Lin and how they had ALL failed their teams as head coach after Lin left. They have approved themselves were wrong (or bad) coaches for the teams too! Lin fans are entitled to our own opinions about Cliff's decisions after 15 games.

as long as you're realistic and understand that Lin plays for a team then I wouldn't criticize you for having an opinion that Lin should be playing more.

For example if somebody came out and said Cliff should play Lin more because it would help the Hornets do X, Y, and Z to make the team better then I would welcome that discussion. We've added a good number of quality posters who contribute meaningfully to the discussion and I hope they stick around for a long time along with Lin. Turning into a middle school drama queen over it is what I have a problem with.

The people here really care about this team, trust me when I say that. We want Lin to succeed

This might be a perfect combination - a team that wants to prove it belongs and a player that wants to prove himself. It doesn't have to be adversarial.

What we obtain too cheap we esteem too lightly - remember that.

[13th Man]

Flip, I agree with your post for the most part. I am not questioning Clifford's integrity, moreso his judgement of how Lin fits best with the team. Currently, I see him being used as a utility player rather than a role player that gets to play to his strengths. In turn, I think this would help out the team as well, not just for Lin. There's still a lot of season left for tweaking and optimization which is what I'm hoping for.

[bws94]

TTNN, the fact that Lin and Kemba are on the court so much together is what I'm basing it on. From that point on, the chemistry will take time to build. It's easier with Batum, he's not playing point. Kemba has been on the court because he's played at a very high level. Therefore he gets more minutes than usual.

[Flip Murray]

Flip, I agree also. I am not questioning Clifford's integrity, moreso his judgement of how Lin fits best with the team. Currently, I see him being used as a utility player rather than a role player that gets to play to his strengths. In turn, I think this would help out the team as well, not just for Lin. There's still a lot of season left for tweaking and optimization which is what I'm hoping for.

I think Cliff will figure it out. We had a lot of personnel turnover this offseason so naturally it is going to take a lot of tweaking to figure out the optimal setup. Right now if it was me I would stick with as much of the two Jeremys on the court together as possible. I think they've developed some chemistry

[bws94]

Again agree with you flip. The Jeremys are a good tandem, I don't see them so much competing with one another for minutes than complementing each other. Neither needs to be a sixth man. You can see them as a combined 6th man or 6th and 7th, it really doesn't much matter as to use them together whenever possible, or if going with one, as the game dictates. I think Lin's chemistry with Kemba can happen, but it'll take some time to fine tune.

[TTNN]

some people love to talk out of both sides of their mouth on this. If you want Lin to get treated like he deserves then you're in the right place with the right coach to do that. He's a professional basketball player that's got to earn his minutes just like anybody else. He doesn't need to be coddled by coaches or have the franchise bend over backwards to appease only him.

My guess is Lin would say a lot of people are overreacting, and would admit that he hasn't played up to his potential this year so far. He knows that the minutes are going to be based off his performance but also what is best for the team. This isn't about building the best lineup around Jeremy Lin, its about building the best rotation with the players we have.

The Hornets didn't **** over jeremy Lin. He's not an idiot. He knew exactly what he was signing up for and say what you want about Steve Clifford but he is as up front, honest, and as professional as it gets. He calls it like he sees it and wouldn't BS a player. I think Lin came to Charlotte for an opportunity to be part of a team. After all the hype of Linsanity and all the hater backlash he just wanted to come to a franchise where he could be a good, normal NBA player without as much of the ridiculous scrutiny.

Lin can thrive in Charlotte, but you have a correct and realistic definition of what thriving is for him. He needs a stable situation where he's judged by his qualities as a basketball player only. You can't define stable after 20 games.

I do feel you exaggerate it a bit here. When we are talking about maximize a player's potential, it does not equivalent to asking the franchise to bend over backwards to appease only him. And I don't see that as a conflict of the interest of the team, maximize all the player on the team is the goal for the team and is a need for team to win.

Lots of arguments comes from how to use Lin would best benefit the team, it's just Lin fans see areas that Lin could really help but was not allowed. I don't see much difference from fans asked for playing Kaminsky more over Hawes, or ask to play Lamb more over PJ. Nobody would consider them trying to bend the franchise backwards to appease only Kaminsky or Lamb.

[bws94]

But can you TTNN (maximize all the players on the team)? When Wade played with LeBron they had a hard time at first playing together. But they learned how. Wade had to alter his game and do less so LeBron could do more. Bosh had to do far less also. When Kobe played with Shaq, Kobe had to do far less than what he did after Shaq left. You can run plays for guys more and use them as alternative options when the main guys are loaded on, but there is compromise in basketball when there are similar type players sharing the floor. I think Lin/Lamb should be used without Kemba more. I think Kemba's minutes should be less and may be if his hot plays cools off. That opens up a lot for Lin.

[tonman]

okay I am a Lin fan and an old Hornets fan from pre-Bobcats time so getting back into this Hornet's team. some of the Lin fans are a bit overzealous with pushing for more minutes for Lin. chill. in my opinion, Kemba overall has played well. as for minutes, I think Clifford is missing out if he's not playing his core bench consistent playing time. as I've said so before, this team is not so talented that by playing the starting 3/4 major minutes, they are going to get you wins.

I go with the old saying, the more things change the more they stay the same. I think Clifford has done a good job so far but if you're going to embrace the smaller lineup 3 point shooting team play passing offense, you need to embrace it wholeheartedly. that's where I find fault and how that ties to Lin and his minutes.

Batum naturally takes a place in the starting lineup due to the need for a playmaker and stretch wing especially with MKG. but adding "shooters" and "playmaking PFs" do not necessarily make the 2014-15 Hornets a small ball team oriented passing offense.

I can only listen to games as I live out west but for a stretch there all I could hear was Kemba trying to take over on offense vs. Curry blowing up on offense in the 3rd quarter. the difference is that the floor was stretched by personnel, other players on GS showed they were capable scoring threats, there was little to no help available which allowed Curry that much more space to get his shots off. Radio is hard to follow but if the ball does not move, it's hard to get the defense stretched. I am not saying the ball has to move every time down the floor but you're not going to convince many people that Kemba isn't going to try to score and more than not it's going to be a pull up type midrange jumper. as I've said it before, if I were playing against this team, I'd make Kemba beat me and that is essentially what the Warriors did.

As for Lin, it's not just the PNR, he's constantly pushing the ball down the court if given the chance. increase Pace. that's how you need to play against GS. you can't slow down because 1) your defense isn't good enough and 2) 3 points beats 2 points. Memphis has/had a quality defensive team but it is also efficiency at the 2 point game that makes them good so they're not just trading 3 for 2. We're not that good. Once you get them running and playing defense at all 5 spots, then their shots might end up a little short. Curry apparently didn't expend that much effort guarding Kemba and the rest of the defense didn't expend much effort watching. I watched the Lakers last year with Lin and Clarkson (and no Kobe) destroy Golden State. A fluke game most likely but they did it with ball movement and efficient scoring. Got GS on their heels and didn't let up.

so back to my original point, with the players that Clifford has, I see a slow reverting back to a style of play from previous seasons. I am always amazed at how Batum can disappear if he's supposed to be a playmaker. I am imagining how we would play if Kemba and MKG and Al were on the court. what can Batum and Cody/Frank/Hawes/Hansbrough do to spread the floor? the only good thing is that Batum will space the floor and shoot threes, Lamb will shoot threes, and Lin will shoot threes as well as Hawes and Frank. therefore, just by nature of the players added, three point shots will increase, but the question is are you just adding players or is the scheme really changing.

[TTNN]

TTNN, the fact that Lin and Kemba are on the court so much together is what I'm basing it on. From that point on, the chemistry will take time to build. It's easier with Batum, he's not playing point. Kemba has been on the court because he's played at a very high level. Therefore he gets more minutes than usual.

I kind of think the way currently Kemba and Lin on court together is not the way coach Clifford envisioned. They did not play off each other, or to say they don't have much chemistry together yet. and I don't think develop their chemistry is on coach's priority list. I'm not saying that should be, just state the fact that is not. Let's just leave it as that.

I agree with Kemba was playing at high level, but I do concern about his minutes, this is kind of early int he season, not in March, so I do think we don't really need to drive Kemba that hard.

However, Clifford might have tons of stuff on his to do list, thus something got pushed down, but I do hope some day, he will attend to things I'm hoping for.

What I'm trying to say is, there are things that is not ideal, it is nothing wrong to point it out. We do need patience for coaches to come to it, but we don't really have to say everything the coach did is the best way, or correct.

[TTNN]

But can you TTNN (maximize all the players on the team)? When Wade played with LeBron they had a hard time at first playing together. But they learned how. Wade had to alter his game and do less so LeBron could do more. Bosh had to do far less also. When Kobe played with Shaq, Kobe had to do far less than what he did after Shaq left. You can run plays for guys more and use them as alternative options when the main guys are loaded on, but there is compromise in basketball when there are similar type players sharing the floor. I think Lin/Lamb should be used without Kemba more. I think Kemba's minutes should be less and may be if his hot plays cools off. That opens up a lot for Lin.

I think Lin/Lamb should be used without Kemba more. I think Kemba's minutes should be less and may be if his hot plays cools off.

well, you give an example yourself here.

Logically you could not maximize every player all together on the team, but you still could trying to maximize their strength thus the combination result of the team is the best. This should not be that hard to understand, and your LBJ/Wade/Boss case is the perfect example.

Basically you want player play together to have synergistic effect, if not, at least additive effect, not antagonist effect. That's why I was hope Kemba/AI play less time together, those two's game do not go well together. I do feel those two antagonist each other a little bit. Same thing, I like Kaminsky/Zeller pair, but not Kaminsky/Hawes pair.

[hood30]

His 3pt shot has been improving from 32% Linsanity days to 36.9% last season, that's not marginally improved. And yet he could not gain any trust from his coaches.

I hate to put this comparison, but there are players who did not make that kind of improvement, yet nobody lost trust in them.

Just like today, Lin played total 13 min, with 22 touches, and he shot twice, made a 3, and got 4 FT chances, made 3 assist, 1 steal and 1 block. (he had 1 TO too.), not sure you could get much more out of 22 touches than this production. Yet when he played only 5 min and got subbed by Roberts, I can't see any player could have a good performance out of limitation like this. BTW, defensively, Lin only let one shot made on him today.

I really don't get what Lin did or did not do to lost coach Clifford's trust this quick.

I've been watching Jlin for several years, and as a huge Lin fan I will say he is still definitely adjusting to the new system and trying to find his role. If you remember last season with a new team, he did the same thing and then came on incredibly strong in the second half of the season and became by far the best player on the Lakers. This season so far he hasn't been our best player overall. Yes his defense has been phenomenal and a major upgrade over Kemba but Kemba has been decent to solid offensively for the most part, and Lin has had some really bad games offensively. I don't think there is any agenda against him, he just isn't lighting the world on fire yet and until he does, he won't earn consistent minutes and will just be a 15-20 minute backup PG

To be honest, I have tried, and I could not see what is Lin's role on this team. It has been shifting left and right, and I don't think he could ever finish adjusting.

I truly believe the Hornet main reason for signing Lin is to be assurance policy in case Kemba got hurt....They were worried about their depth at PG and needed someone better than Brian Roberts to play the 15 minutes when Kemba sits...After losing Mo William, who really balled after Kemba got hurt, they knew they needed someone comparable and the only guy on the market was Lin.

My guess is Lin was sweet talked by the Hornets FO without explicitly telling him he was going to get consistent good minute off the bench, but Lin probably took their words as that..that he was going to be at the very least, the first guard off the bench and a 6th man.

It is Lin's fault for not realizing that it wasn't a good fit and Clifford is a defensive coach with low level tolerance for player like him who aren't established starters...He should have known better...At least, he will learn from this.

By watching the games, you could tell that Clifford is starting to lose patience with Lin by letting him know about it after every mistake..and the hook is quick whenever Lin makes a turnover..So Lin has less space to get going with a quick hook that sends him packing into the bench.

The good news is he's not tight to the 2 year contract...He can leave after the year is over and he should...This is clearly not a good fit for him..He needs a coach that gives him space and let him play PnR...I don't even see that much of that anymore when he gets subbed in...That is because Clifford is calling all the plays and has lost confidence in Lin to even let him run his game...That was supposedly why Lin came here..because even as a bench player, when he gets subbed in, he will be allowed to run PnR to death until the other team can successful stop it and Lin is taken out of the game.

[Teddyb]

what might be interesting is to look at Lins numbers when he's NOT playing with Kemba....

[ChokeFasncists]

Lin's gotta learn to make fewer mistakes. It's good for him.

[TinmanZBoy]

Lin's gotta learn to make fewer mistakes. It's good for him.

i think he has to be not afraid to make mistakes,

[ChokeFasncists]

Well, both are good. Let's say he's gotta strike a balance?

OTOH, as you said, he's not the up and coming star with potential anymore. Those have more leeway. Now he has to do what circumstance is giving him.

EDIT: There's also the possibility of levels. In one period he is allowed to make mistakes, like most of the time during his first year in Houston. He's done that, now is the time for him to figure out how to be effective with precision. Then after that, he could be given more freedom to experiment. It's really too bad, we really don't know what would happen if he wasn't benched in his second year in Houston. It might have been awesome. Ship has sailed tho. Now it's a different situation that demands different strategy.

[RevolDas]

One of the reason Lin is not playing as good as we hoped for might be that he's constantly having to switch between PG and SG. Another is he haven't settled in his play time on the court. And finally with Kemba playing well, his mins has no doubt reduced and that have an effect on his performance, since I think that he is a slow burn type of player - he needs time to "warm up". That might also be the reason that he often plays his best at the 4th quarter.

All of these are on him though. Adapt or die, so to speak. I hope that he can settle to a role whatever it may be here, and coming year as well. He's been switching teams all his career and have to play different style different role under different coach's system everywhere he goes and never have a chance to really settle down. I really think that Hornet can provide a stable environment for him and that would benefit the team as well.

[ChokeFasncists]

One of the reason Lin is not playing as good as we hoped for might be that he's constantly having to switch between PG and SG. Another is he haven't settled in his play time on the court. And finally with Kemba playing well, his mins has no doubt reduced and that have an effect on his performance, since I think that he is a slow burn type of player - he needs time to "warm up". That might also be the reason that he often plays his best at the 4th quarter.

All of these are on him though. Adapt or die, so to speak. I hope that he can settle to a role whatever it may be here, and coming year as well. He's been switching teams all his career and have to play different style different role under different coach's system everywhere he goes and never have a chance to really settle down. I really think that Hornet can provide a stable environment for him and that would benefit the team as well.

Ultimately, he just needs to become a better basketball player, defend, make baskets, pass, make good decisions, don't turn the ball over. It really shouldn't be that complicated.

[TinmanZBoy]

there is this question always in my mind
why did not Lin get a MLE deal with the hornets this summer...
if coach clifford, cho really wanted lin, why could not they offer Lin a MLE? tbh, the fact that Lin could not net a MLE contract annoyed me big time, for his own sake, it is a little insulting...

[steady]

there is this question always in my mind
why did not Lin get a MLE deal with the hornets this summer...
if coach clifford, cho really wanted lin, why could not they offer Lin a MLE? tbh, the fact that Lin could not net a MLE contract annoyed me big time, for his own sake, it is a little insulting...

Lin was in a hard spot when the DeAndre Jotdan deal with Mavs fell apart. He expected to go to Dallas it seemed like - from Woj and other reports the Mavs were going after him to run PNR with DeAndre. He has said something like God left one door obviously open for him. And that it was Charlotte.

Charlotte knew probably - because it was so late in free agency when they reached deal with him that Lin would have limited options by then. yeah Cho played hardball with him. But it was business.

//

One thing ... if Lin was going to make a career of moving around the league at least he has played for teams that have been very fun to watch - and underdogs who unexpectedly made the playoffs.

With the exception of Laker, of course. and the Warriors who I don't really count because he was such a different player then.

[BlackOutBuzz]

You can't make this **** up: "Charlotte Hornets and Steve Clifford screwing Jeremy Lin"

http://sportige.com/88239-charlotte-hornets-jeremy-lin-getting-screwed-by-steve-clifford-1544/

If you don't want to contribute a click to this drivel, the basic gist is that - as the title says - Jeremy is getting the shaft whether he's healthy or not.

If he's healthy, then Lin was being "screwed" by Clifford by not playing him enough minutes vs. Golden State, especially in light of Brian Roberts getting more minutes than Lin.

If he's injured, then Lin is being "screwed" by Clifford's insistence to play him at all and risking his long term health. I...

Sorry Cliff, you just can't win here.

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