Kon Air: The Kon Knueppel Thread

[Chapelchilla]

Kon has hit the most 3 pointers in NBA history for any player in their first 4 games of their career.

He plays D fairly well too and if you cannot see that the team plays better with him on the floor overall, you are letting something else blind you.

Right now he is probably second to VJ in ROY standing.

[Bassman]

After 4 games I am very pleased with Kon’s performance! Agree with all said by @Yosemiteben. His ability to defend at this level is encouraging. Not a lockdown guy, but uses his body, strength, length and footwork to make things difficult for whomever he’s guarding. Kon will improve on his skills, get even stronger, and the coach/team will learn how to better utilize his passing.

[countryboi]

After 4 games I am very pleased with Kon’s performance! Agree with all said by @Yosemiteben. His ability to defend at this level is encouraging. Not a lockdown guy, but uses his body, strength, length and footwork to make things difficult for whomever he’s guarding. Kon will improve on his skills, get even stronger, and the coach/team will learn how to better utilize his passing.

He is a better defender than Melo...

[JMAC3]

If you think posting that clip somehow supports your critique of Kon's game or my statement that he's contributing and performing above my expectations, then so be it.

I'll just point out again that you are doing the exact isolated clip selection and ignoring of broader performance that you recently criticized Plowright of doing.

If I posted 15 clips of Kon containing drivers, would that convince you that he's a reliable point of attack defender? I would guess not, and I don't necessarily fault you for that. But posting like 2 random clips of him on defense just isn't interesting to me.

Only 2 people on this team have better on/off defensive stats than Kon - Melo and Diabate. I'm not going to act like Kon is a defensive stopper, but he's absolutely contributing to that defensive impact.

I love how this entire convo has somehow turned into me "critiquing Kon's game". I literally said he is shooting the ball great and I hope that it continues but if I am being honest he isn't doing much outside of making jump shots. I didn't bash him or parts of his game.

Which then turned into you inventing 7 things that you think Kon is doing well at, I disagreed on most. So that is me critiquing because I don't agree?

Then I provide 4 clips showcasing the opposite of your points and you have excuses for each or telling me they are random and don't interest you... and how you could provide 15 great defensive clips of Kon but you won't because it won't matter.

Again, all because I said the stats, advanced stats and my eyes say he isn't contributing much outside of being a great shooter- which was why I was lower on him throughout the draft process.

I guess, now that he is on the team I have to forget all that. Ignore the things he still isn't doing or pretend they exist otherwise I am a hater.

Meanwhile we just gave up 146 points to a team missing their two best offensive players. Everything is great and fine and we shouldn't have any concerns.

[JMAC3]

I would even say Kon has played well this year, no real complaints based on what I thought we were getting.

I am just not arms up in the air screaming he is ROY and an amazing pick and all my concerns are gone from this 4 game sample.

I thought he was more Corey Kispert than Austin Reaves/Luka Lite. So far I think he is showing he is an elite shooter and everything else is just minimum NBA player stuff.

Maybe he will break the ceiling I have on him, but him making a bunch of threes isn't worth the #4 pick to me personally.

[Braggins]

Also, I'm not sure what other people are seeing on defense when they watch him play... I still think people are grading him on a curve and acting like hes doing good on defense just because he doesn't get burnt every play.

Sorry for maybe injecting random negativity when hes playing well, but I saw something that I thought was a good example of what I was talking about before with his defense.

Read on Twitter

Kon doesn't do anything remotely impressive on this possession and honestly gives up a good look to Jovic, who just happens to miss the shot by a bit, and this is seen as an example of him playing "good" defense. It wasn't necessarily a terrible possession or anything, so I wouldn't make a big deal about it specifically, but I feel like most of the time I see someone highlighting his defense its just a routine possession like this where he doesn't really do anything notable and it gets portrayed as good defense.

[yosemiteben]

I love how this entire convo has somehow turned into me "critiquing Kon's game". I literally said he is shooting the ball great and I hope that it continues but if I am being honest he isn't doing much outside of making jump shots. I didn't bash him or parts of his game.

Which then turned into you inventing 7 things that you think Kon is doing well at, I disagreed on most. So that is me critiquing because I don't agree?

Yes? I just posted observations of what I found impressive, and you were just like "actually he's not like any of these things, see these random, isolated, contextless examples that contradict it"? I don't care about your opinion and am not really coming at you about it, I'm just sharing mine and simply noting the irony of you arguing against it by pointing to isolated examples, something you specifically have criticized other people about.

I guess, now that he is on the team I have to forget all that. Ignore the things he still isn't doing or pretend they exist otherwise I am a hater.

This is you just not trying to have a productive discussion. I never said any of this. I said I have a hard time believing someone can watch all our games and say he's not contributing (I continue to believe that, it's just a fact that it's hard for me to believe that). I didn't say your opinion is wrong, didn't say you have to forget anything, didn't say you're a hater, didn't say you should pretend things exist, didn't say *insert any other random strawman you seem to want to include*.

Meanwhile we just gave up 146 points to a team missing their two best offensive players. Everything is great and fine and we shouldn't have any concerns.

Again, nothing I said could even possibly be construed to mean this.

[fatlever]

Read on Twitter

[JDR720]

Kon's defended shooting % is actually very good. Overall 12% lower than average. When guarded by Kon, players shoot 34%. That's about the same as Sion, who is at 33%. In the paint Kon is holding players to 20-22% lower than average. His defensive rating is also best on the team tied with Diabate.

There's nothing in the stats or the games that suggest Kon hasn't been a solid defender. If people want him to make flashy defensive plays or get a lot of STOCKS then Kon isn't their guy, he's never going to be one of those types of players with his athletic profile.

But he can be and already is a very competent team defender and a solid man defender due to his strength/footwork/IQ.

Not necessarily saying he's their level but he's a Marc Gasol, not a Dwight Howard. He defends by being smarter, not more athletic.

[JMAC3]

I love how this entire convo has somehow turned into me "critiquing Kon's game". I literally said he is shooting the ball great and I hope that it continues but if I am being honest he isn't doing much outside of making jump shots. I didn't bash him or parts of his game.

Which then turned into you inventing 7 things that you think Kon is doing well at, I disagreed on most. So that is me critiquing because I don't agree?

Yes? I just posted observations of what I found impressive, and you were just like "actually he's not like any of these things, see these random, isolated, contextless examples that contradict it"? I don't care about your opinion and am not really coming at you about it, I'm just sharing mine and simply noting the irony of you arguing against it by pointing to isolated examples, something you specifically have criticized other people about.

I guess, now that he is on the team I have to forget all that. Ignore the things he still isn't doing or pretend they exist otherwise I am a hater.

This is you just not trying to have a productive discussion. I never said any of this. I said I have a hard time believing someone can watch all our games and say he's not contributing (I continue to believe that, it's just a fact that it's hard for me to believe that). I didn't say your opinion is wrong, didn't say you have to forget anything, didn't say you're a hater, didn't say you should pretend things exist, didn't say *insert any other random strawman you seem to want to include*.

Meanwhile we just gave up 146 points to a team missing their two best offensive players. Everything is great and fine and we shouldn't have any concerns.

Again, nothing I said could even possibly be construed to mean this.

Let's just drop it because you are ignoring half of what I am saying, which is why it seems like a pointless conversation, and I am at the point where unless I have nothing but glowing things to say it is going to be met with pushback.

but yes if you want to gaslight yourself into thinking Kon riding the ball handlers back is good defense and scheme then I can't really have the convo.
Same with you ingoring the fact that Philly did in fact hunt Kon on the last possession which you ignored to make a point about Tre Mann.
Or that him turning the ball over 3 times in 3 mins is fine because he made other plays in that stretch...

The eye will see what the eye wants to see.

[Chapelchilla]

Kon's defended shooting % is actually very good. Overall 12% lower than average. When guarded by Kon, players shoot 34%. That's about the same as Sion, who is at 33%. In the paint Kon is holding players to 20-22% lower than average. His defensive rating is also best on the team tied with Diabate.

There's nothing in the stats or the games that suggest Kon hasn't been a solid defender. If people want him to make flashy defensive plays or get a lot of STOCKS then Kon isn't their guy, he's never going to be one of those types of players with his athletic profile.

But he can be and already is a very competent team defender and a solid man defender due to his strength/footwork/IQ.

Not necessarily saying he's their level but he's a Marc Gasol, not a Dwight Howard. He defends by being smarter, not more athletic.

I agree. One thing that I noticed that stands out is how he works his way to right place on the floor to block the guy from ever getting the ball or cuts his angle to the basket off or gets into position to make sure the ball stays in the wrong part of the floor for them to get a quick easy score on him. It's little stuff that some players never really get and he seems to get it even as a brand new rookie.
Sure he can be better as he gets older, bigger and more experienced and needs to improve parts of his game to be more well rounded but the guy is obviously operating as an NBA starter level player so far in his nascent career. He doesn't look overwhelmed by the size or pace or out of place on the court at all. Melo sees it.

[yosemiteben]

Let's just drop it because you are ignoring half of what I am saying, which is why it seems like a pointless conversation, and I am at the point where unless I have nothing but glowing things to say it is going to be met with pushback.

I'm sorry you feel that way. It's untrue, as evidenced by the very large volume of negative posts on here that I don't respond to or the critical posts I actually make myself.

But your critiques don't feel constrained by reference to things I actually say, so sorry you feel like I have said these things.

but yes if you want to gaslight yourself into thinking Kon riding the ball handlers back is good defense and scheme then I can't really have the convo.
Same with you ingoring the fact that Philly did in fact hunt Kon on the last possession which you ignored to make a point about Tre Mann.
Or that him turning the ball over 3 times in 3 mins is fine because he made other plays in that stretch...

The eye will see what the eye wants to see.

FWIW, I responded to your point about that last play with Kon because you cited it as an example of bad defense by Kon, or I guess more specifically, evidence that his defense "isn't all fine and dandy." He barely did anything at all in that play, it's simply not an example of bad defense.

Reasonable minds can definitely differ on proper defensive technique and positioning when pursuing a defender off a screen while in drop defense, it's very common for coaches to say to maintain close contact with the driver from behind ("make them feel you") and force them to either pull up or go into the drop defender. That's routinely how we play defense in that scenario. Stop the play 3 seconds in and you see that our defense is very well positioned to contain the drive and recover:



Even ignoring this, I just don't understand the cognitive dissonance in criticizing Plowright for posting a random clip from Kon, then you are basically doing the exact same thing. Like do you not see that happening? What is the distinction there in your mind? These random examples from very small portions of just one game don't do anything for me, for what I believe is the exact same reason that Plowright's post did nothing for you.

[JMAC3]

Let's just drop it because you are ignoring half of what I am saying, which is why it seems like a pointless conversation, and I am at the point where unless I have nothing but glowing things to say it is going to be met with pushback.

I'm sorry you feel that way. It's untrue, as evidenced by the very large volume of negative posts on here that I don't respond to or the critical posts I actually make myself.

But your critiques don't feel constrained by reference to things I actually say, so sorry you feel like I have said these things.

but yes if you want to gaslight yourself into thinking Kon riding the ball handlers back is good defense and scheme then I can't really have the convo.
Same with you ingoring the fact that Philly did in fact hunt Kon on the last possession which you ignored to make a point about Tre Mann.
Or that him turning the ball over 3 times in 3 mins is fine because he made other plays in that stretch...

The eye will see what the eye wants to see.

FWIW, I responded to your point about that last play with Kon because you cited it as an example of bad defense by Kon, or I guess more specifically, evidence that his defense "isn't all fine and dandy." He barely did anything at all in that play, it's simply not an example of bad defense.

Reasonable minds can definitely differ on proper defensive technique and positioning when pursuing a defender off a screen while in drop defense, it's very common for coaches to say to maintain close contact with the driver from behind ("make them feel you") and force them to either pull up or go into the drop defender. That's routinely how we play defense in that scenario. Stop the play 3 seconds in and you see that our defense is very well positioned to contain the drive and recover:



Even ignoring this, I just don't understand the cognitive dissonance in criticizing Plowright for posting a random clip from Kon, then you are basically doing the exact same thing. Like do you not see that happening? What is the distinction there in your mind? These random examples from very small portions of just one game don't do anything for me, for what I believe is the exact same reason that Plowright's post did nothing for you.

I posted the play not because it was bad defense by Kon. You are right he did nothing. I posted the play because you specifically made a point that teams weren't targeting or hunting him. Yet on the most important play in the game, they had Kons player set the screen to force the switch. Over Tre Mann and LaMelo who were both on the floor. That seems noteworthy to me and would indicate that teams are hunting the switch with Kon.

I feel like I have made that clear in several posts on why that play was posted and it wasn't just simply a random play I posted for **** and giggles.

[

- defensive effort - at this point I don't see him as a defensive liability on ball, which was something I expected during his rookie season. Teams are not hunting him in mismatches and trying to go at him, and small sample size notwithstanding to date he has not hurt us on defense.

[wilson115]

Also, I'm not sure what other people are seeing on defense when they watch him play... I still think people are grading him on a curve and acting like hes doing good on defense just because he doesn't get burnt every play.

Sorry for maybe injecting random negativity when hes playing well, but I saw something that I thought was a good example of what I was talking about before with his defense.

Read on Twitter

Kon doesn't do anything remotely impressive on this possession and honestly gives up a good look to Jovic, who just happens to miss the shot by a bit, and this is seen as an example of him playing "good" defense. It wasn't necessarily a terrible possession or anything, so I wouldn't make a big deal about it specifically, but I feel like most of the time I see someone highlighting his defense its just a routine possession like this where he doesn't really do anything notable and it gets portrayed as good defense.

Disagree. Kon does a good job of getting skinny against the pick and staying glued to his man and denying the open three. Then slows the drive enough for McNeeley to recover against the cut, forcing Jovic to throw up the one-legged one-handed prayer. How many times have we seen a Hornet guard not even seeing the pick coming and getting erased from the play right away...

[Diop]

Read on Twitter

?s=46

[Chapelchilla]

People around the league who are tuning in can see that he is a good player so I am not sure why Hornets fans that watch games wouldn't have already seen that too. If we drafted Tre Johnson - I would think he is pretty good too. Or if we had landed VJ - I would be overjoyed. Flagg would look better with us then he has with the Mavs due to their dumb use of him at PG but you can still see he is good. Fears has a nice handle but the shooting is suspect. Ace, maybe something is wrong with him but he has been bad thus far so I would be worried. I dont think we considered anyone else did we?

[yosemiteben]

Let's just drop it because you are ignoring half of what I am saying, which is why it seems like a pointless conversation, and I am at the point where unless I have nothing but glowing things to say it is going to be met with pushback.

I'm sorry you feel that way. It's untrue, as evidenced by the very large volume of negative posts on here that I don't respond to or the critical posts I actually make myself.

But your critiques don't feel constrained by reference to things I actually say, so sorry you feel like I have said these things.

but yes if you want to gaslight yourself into thinking Kon riding the ball handlers back is good defense and scheme then I can't really have the convo.
Same with you ingoring the fact that Philly did in fact hunt Kon on the last possession which you ignored to make a point about Tre Mann.
Or that him turning the ball over 3 times in 3 mins is fine because he made other plays in that stretch...

The eye will see what the eye wants to see.

FWIW, I responded to your point about that last play with Kon because you cited it as an example of bad defense by Kon, or I guess more specifically, evidence that his defense "isn't all fine and dandy." He barely did anything at all in that play, it's simply not an example of bad defense.

Reasonable minds can definitely differ on proper defensive technique and positioning when pursuing a defender off a screen while in drop defense, it's very common for coaches to say to maintain close contact with the driver from behind ("make them feel you") and force them to either pull up or go into the drop defender. That's routinely how we play defense in that scenario. Stop the play 3 seconds in and you see that our defense is very well positioned to contain the drive and recover:



Even ignoring this, I just don't understand the cognitive dissonance in criticizing Plowright for posting a random clip from Kon, then you are basically doing the exact same thing. Like do you not see that happening? What is the distinction there in your mind? These random examples from very small portions of just one game don't do anything for me, for what I believe is the exact same reason that Plowright's post did nothing for you.

I posted the play not because it was bad defense by Kon. You are right he did nothing. I posted the play because you specifically made a point that teams weren't targeting or hunting him. Yet on the most important play in the game, they had Kons player set the screen to force the switch. Over Tre Mann and LaMelo who were both on the floor. That seems noteworthy to me and would indicate that teams are hunting the switch with Kon.

I feel like I have made that clear in several posts on why that play was posted and it wasn't just simply a random play I posted for **** and giggles.

[

- defensive effort - at this point I don't see him as a defensive liability on ball, which was something I expected during his rookie season. Teams are not hunting him in mismatches and trying to go at him, and small sample size notwithstanding to date he has not hurt us on defense.

"Here are two clips that show his defense isn't fine and dandy"

Then you post that final play clip as one of your two examples. I'm not exactly putting words in your mouth here.

But whatever, it's fine, you must have not meant that that was an example of a problem with his defense. Probably didn't give it a lot of thought, that's fine. The whole point is undermined anyway IMO by the fact that you're engaging in a Plowright-style "see, here's a random clip" exercise to make a point.

[JustBuzzin]

Someone mentioned about others not taking accountability for being wrong on draft picks.

That's funny because I always admit when I'm wrong it's just I'm rarely wrong.

Can't really say I was wrong on Kon, because I never said he was a bad player. From the start I said he's going to be a good role player. My problem with Kon was his low ceiling. I felt Ace had a much higher ceiling. Has Kon been better than I expected? Yes! Hopefully he keeps it up and maybe he proves me wrong over time and develop into a borderline all-star kind of player.

I was completely wrong on VJ. That's the guy I wasn't really high on. I just didn't see what we're seeing in his game now when he was at Baylor. It felt like he would disappear at times and settle as a role player. He has surprised me with his offensive game so far.

If I had to rank the prospects so far VJ/Flagg/Harper/Coward/Kon in that order.

[Liver_Pooty]

Someone mentioned about others not taking accountability for being wrong on draft picks.

That's funny because I always admit when I'm wrong it's just I'm rarely wrong.

Can't really say I was wrong on Kon, because I never said he was a bad player. From the start I said he's going to be a good role player. My problem with Kon was his low ceiling. I felt Ace had a much higher ceiling. Has Kon been better than I expected? Yes! Hopefully he keeps it up and maybe he proves me wrong over time and develop into a borderline all-star kind of player.

I was completely wrong on VJ. That's the guy I wasn't really high on. I just didn't see what we're seeing in his game now when he was at Baylor. It felt like he would disappear at times and settle as a role player. He has surprised me with his offensive game so far.

If I had to rank the prospects so far VJ/Flagg/Harper/Coward/Kon in that order.

Cooper will be fine once Kidd stops trying to make an 18 year old a point forward like Scottie **** pippen in his prime.