Fool Me Twice: The Gordon Hayward Thread

[GiggitySmalls]

He is playing like at all star level. If you hate thats up to you.

[Soul Rebel]

He is finding his way, as are others. You can hate the contract, but can't hate the player. He is exactly what we've been lacking on the wing and making others around him better.

If we could somehow find a young big man to clean up the boards and provide a presence inside, we'd be set!

[BigSlam]

In a league full of flash and fancy it's so refreshing to be able to enjoy watching a guy like Hayward play on your team.

[Chapelchilla]

Sure, it would have been nice to pay an established and marketable former all star peanuts to come play for Charlotte but that's not how the world works. As of now, he has been well worth the deal especially considering the mess we had been left with by Cho.
Hayward is fun to watch, plays the game the right way and has definitely made the franchise better. Go Hornets!

[GoBobs]

We might need that for anything lol

better to have it and not need it, then need it and not have it

and he's scored more than 20 for a season once. empty cap space to absorb a contract for picks > overpaid guy with multiple years left on his deal every single time too...

He scored 17 last year with walker, tatum and brown also taking up a bunch of shots. Hayward had a better true shooting percentage than all those guys and would easily have averaged over 20 with more shots.

I Hayward increase his value playing for us and we could then trade him for a pick that is better than taking on some dead weight contract

what's the point of signing a guy and losing draft position just to give him away again?

that's a lot of wheel spinning no matter how you cut it. and yeah, i'd like to think that a guy who is playing 3 scorers back is efficient in the shots they make after the defense is gameplanning and loading up against others. but that same logic had chicago thinking that otto porter was about to have a breakout season when they acquired him

maybe he's just better suited to that role. or maybe he's just not able to keep up. either way, you don't pay money to figure that out when the best possible outcome still doesn't benefit you that much.

i'm just saying guys.... if you've got to do this amount of mental gymnastics to make a move sound reasonable then its bad. positivity doesn't make it better. and if we had a larger fanbase, that was pissed, then the FO wouldn't be so comfortable doing this kind of thing time and time again.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2044203

Still plenty of time to make a deal like this and tank if we wanted to

[wilson115]

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[MasterIchiro]

Seems like yesterday Kupchak stretched Batum to steal Hayward.

Hayward is the star of the game. Wish he could play 48 minutes.

Miles saw open lanes and exploited them. He's been a plus as a bench player.

And finally, have to give it to Ball. He got everyone involved and should've racked up 3-4 more assists if not for his teammates fumbling passes and missing wide open threes. Ball has been attacking the rim more as defenses play him to pass.

[Chapelchilla]

Seems like yesterday Kupchak stretched Batum to steal Hayward.

Hayward is the star of the game. Wish he could play 48 minutes.

Miles saw open lanes and exploited them. He's been a plus as a bench player.

And finally, have to give it to Ball. He got everyone involved and should've racked up 3-4 more assists if not for his teammates fumbling passes and missing wide open threes. Ball has been attacking the rim more as defenses play him to pass.

Yep, gotta tip your hat to Kupchak and Jordan for making the move to get us a veteran star player when they had the chance. Spending the the money it took to land the first major piece we that needed, bold.
I heard he may turn into another Batum once he got paid but I don't believe that is case. Hmm

And Bridges, a nice home grown young talent. Exciting but still learning to bring it every night. It's probably to soon to give up on a guy like that.

Even Devonte! Maybe he can get that stroke back.

Plus Ball, that guy is alright too. LOL

Fun game by the Hornets. They are likeable and work hard, the consistent wins will come as they fill in the missing pieces but some of us are enjoying the ride in the meantime.....

[MasterIchiro]

Seems like yesterday Kupchak stretched Batum to steal Hayward.

Hayward is the star of the game. Wish he could play 48 minutes.

Miles saw open lanes and exploited them. He's been a plus as a bench player.

And finally, have to give it to Ball. He got everyone involved and should've racked up 3-4 more assists if not for his teammates fumbling passes and missing wide open threes. Ball has been attacking the rim more as defenses play him to pass.

Yep, gotta tip your hat to Kupchak and Jordan for making the move to get us a veteran star player when they had the chance. Spending the the money it took to land the first major piece we that needed, bold.
I heard he may turn into another Batum once he got paid but I don't believe that is case. Hmm

And Bridges, a nice home grown young talent. Exciting but still learning to bring it every night. It's probably to soon to give up on a guy like that.

Even Devonte! Maybe he can get that stroke back.

Plus Ball, that guy is alright too. LOL

Fun game by the Hornets. They are likeable and work hard, the consistent wins will come as they fill in the missing pieces but some of us are enjoying the ride in the meantime.....

Yeah some were calling the Hornets one of the most horribly managed teams in the NBA after the Batum stretch. The crying stopped fortunately. It was impossible to have a conversation with fans. Reminds me so much of the reactionary meltdown after Rozier signed. Hayward is scoring more than he did as the leader in Utah. He's making a case for Kupchak to go out and bring in major help. And I don't mean that lightly.

[yosemiteben]

It was horrific roster management to need to stretch Batum. I think that's pretty much settled at this point.

Glad Hayward is playing well and hope our roster is good enough to capitalize on it.

[MasterIchiro]

Roster shaping up just fine to me. Hayward is ahead of LeBron James in scoring. He's worth his weight in gold.

[yosemiteben]

Roster shaping up just fine to me. Hayward is ahead of LeBron James in scoring. He's worth his weight in gold.

We're paying a guy $9M not to play for us for the next three years. It's ok to acknowledge that good roster management wouldn't require that.

[BigSlam]

I try hard not to play the sliding doors/butterfly effect game, because you guys don’t know what impact the ripples could have had, but it’s really interesting to think of what the last 4+ years of Charlotte basketball might have been had Utah not have matched back in 2014.

[Chapelchilla]

I try hard not to play the sliding doors/butterfly effect game, because you guys don’t know what impact the ripples could have had, but it’s really interesting to think of what the last 4+ years of Charlotte basketball might have been had Utah not have matched back in 2014.

Right! A Kemba/Hayward combo instead of Batum would have been a solid foundation. What a shame.

[JMAC3]

Roster shaping up just fine to me. Hayward is ahead of LeBron James in scoring. He's worth his weight in gold.

We're paying a guy $9M not to play for us for the next three years. It's ok to acknowledge that good roster management wouldn't require that.

Yeah I do not think anyone is forgetting this.

Just for fun... if there were just these 4 options (among a billion) and you had to chose one of these which would you prefer?

1) Hornets with Hayward and 9 Million dead cap from stretching Batum (how it is now).

2) Hornets with Hayward, but dumped Batum and lottery protected first (assume no difference making player brought back)

3) Hornets with no Hayward, Batum expiring and Christian Wood at 3/48 (we would of had to offer slightly more, worse team and Houston no state income tax)

4) Hornets with no Hayward, Signed Grant for 3/60, and Batum on Expiring.

Again, we don't know what all the options were, could of been, etc... but if you got a do over and you had to chose one of these which one would you go with? Again, you can invent a billion other options, but I think all these are fair options to chose from.

[yosemiteben]

Roster shaping up just fine to me. Hayward is ahead of LeBron James in scoring. He's worth his weight in gold.

We're paying a guy $9M not to play for us for the next three years. It's ok to acknowledge that good roster management wouldn't require that.

Yeah I do not think anyone is forgetting this.

I mean if MI wants to throw shade about reactions to the deal and act like everything is going great and Kupchak should be praised, seems like we should be fully acknowledging all parts of the deal.

I don't view those options as the only options worth considering or all that were potentially available, so not sure the point of what you're asking. I probably would do option 2 though with significant protections on the pick.

[JMAC3]

I don't view those options as the only options worth considering or all that were potentially available, so not sure the point of what you're asking. I probably would do option 2 though with significant protections on the pick.

Which is the reason I mentioned multiple times in the post that I can not list every single option that could of existed or been available. However I think all 4 options are pretty fair and probably a bit more favorable than they needed to be considering I gave you chance to sign two guys who are playing really well... when we could of spent that money on guys who are not playing well.

The point of asking is for discussion... you know offering up alternatives to what was done instead of just saying I don't like that and I wish we would of done some other mysterious thing. It makes for better content rather than saying "I am not sure what I would of done, but in 12 months I will see which turns out the best and use that hindsight to really hate the Hayward signing".

[JMAC3]

I don't view those options as the only options worth considering or all that were potentially available, so not sure the point of what you're asking. I probably would do option 2 though with significant protections on the pick.

Which is the reason I mentioned multiple times in the post that I can not list every single option that could of existed or been available. However I think all 4 options are pretty fair and probably a bit more favorable than they needed to be considering I gave you chance to sign two guys who are playing really well... when we could of spent that money on guys who are not playing well.

The point of asking is for discussion... you know offering up alternatives to what was done instead of just saying I don't like that and I wish we would of done some other mysterious thing. It makes for better content rather than saying "I am not sure what I would of done, but in 12 months I will see which turns out the best and use that hindsight to really hate the Hayward signing".

I believe we have disagreed on this very thing in the past, because you view it as a we could of signed someone else/had flexibility moving forward/traded cap space for picks type situation. Which I understand, but without giving a more detailed solution then it is you playing it very very safe and letting things playout and choosing the best outcome once you have way more information then Hornets did at the time of the signing.

It is a bit like me saying "I don't like the pick of Miles Bridges here" and you saying "who would you rather of picked?" and then my response being "idk, but I would of picked someone else or traded the pick for a future pick"

Then fast forward 15 months and me saying "See I knew we shouldn't of picked Miles Bridges, we should of picked ___(insert name here)__ instead"

It is pretty hard for me to be wrong in this scenario when I say "we should of picked someone else". The only time I am wrong in this situation is if Miles Bridges ends up the best option from that draft class. It feels like that is what you are doing with the Hayward situation by not offering up what you would of done and then 9 months from now when some team gets a good asset via trade or one of the other free agents breaks out you can point your finger and say "See we could of done that instead".

I don't know if I laid this out the best way possible, but maybe after reading this you will see why I ask the questions I do sometimes, I promise if you met me I am pretty solid dude and not trying to be a dick.

[yosemiteben]

I don't view those options as the only options worth considering or all that were potentially available, so not sure the point of what you're asking. I probably would do option 2 though with significant protections on the pick.

Which is the reason I mentioned multiple times in the post that I can not list every single option that could of existed or been available. However I think all 4 options are pretty fair and probably a bit more favorable than they needed to be considering I gave you chance to sign two guys who are playing really well... when we could of spent that money on guys who are not playing well.

The point of asking is for discussion... you know offering up alternatives to what was done instead of just saying I don't like that and I wish we would of done some other mysterious thing. It makes for better content rather than saying "I am not sure what I would of done, but in 12 months I will see which turns out the best and use that hindsight to really hate the Hayward signing".

Except I'm not going to use hindsight to say I hate the Hayward signing, so maybe don't preemptively criticize me for it.

I hate the roster moves required to make the Hayward signing because there wasn't a plan, which is literally the FO's job. I would be more forgiving on that point if it didn't feel exactly like the Kemba situation, where we also made a decision with no apparent backup plan in place and were made completely subject to Kemba's whims.

I'm not saying I hate the Hayward signing, I'm saying I hate stretching Batum and it's (in my view) undeniable evidence of a failure of roster management. I don't think it's fun or interesting to speculate as to the various permutations of deals that may or may not have been feasible based on information I don't have. It's cool if you want to, but I don't enjoy that so don't expect me to join in.

[JMAC3]

I don't view those options as the only options worth considering or all that were potentially available, so not sure the point of what you're asking. I probably would do option 2 though with significant protections on the pick.

Which is the reason I mentioned multiple times in the post that I can not list every single option that could of existed or been available. However I think all 4 options are pretty fair and probably a bit more favorable than they needed to be considering I gave you chance to sign two guys who are playing really well... when we could of spent that money on guys who are not playing well.

The point of asking is for discussion... you know offering up alternatives to what was done instead of just saying I don't like that and I wish we would of done some other mysterious thing. It makes for better content rather than saying "I am not sure what I would of done, but in 12 months I will see which turns out the best and use that hindsight to really hate the Hayward signing".

Except I'm not going to use hindsight to say I hate the Hayward signing, so maybe don't preemptively criticize me for it.

I hate the roster moves required to make the Hayward signing because there wasn't a plan, which is literally the FO's job. I would be more forgiving on that point if it didn't feel exactly like the Kemba situation, where we also made a decision with no apparent backup plan in place and were made completely subject to Kemba's whims.

I'm not saying I hate the Hayward signing, I'm saying I hate stretching Batum and it's (in my view) undeniable evidence of a failure of roster management. I don't think it's fun or interesting to speculate as to the various permutations of deals that may or may not have been feasible based on information I don't have. It's cool if you want to, but I don't enjoy that so don't expect me to join in.

Haven't you pointed out several other players throughout the early season saying "we could of signed this guy if we wanted veteran leadership for way less money". I am not trying to come at you on this I promise. Read my post I just made before you posted this one and maybe my point will come through cleaner. I may have sounded aggressive towards you when I am really not trying to.