Z-Rex: The Cody Zeller Thread

[JDR720]

He needs to life weights a lot during the offseason, needs to get around 255 pounds so he can bang a little more and wont get pushed as easy, the average weight of a NBA PF is 250, he is 240 now he is to small

[Eoghan]

Nope, I'm telling you, he could weigh 300 lbs and he'd still get thrown around like a rag doll. It's all mental. Toothpick Noel played 100x more physically than Zeller.

[mrknowitall215]

He needs to life weights a lot during the offseason, needs to get around 255 pounds so he can bang a little more and wont get pushed as easy, the average weight of a NBA PF is 250, he is 240 now he is to small

I don't even think lifting weights will help Zeller. Now that I've went back to watch the strengths of his game while at Indiana, he doesn't need anything that'll impede his speed like more weight because that's his primary advantage as a 7-footer. What he need to do is learn how to consistently make that jump shot at the top of the key at all cost. Once he get that down pact, the slower footed bigs will have to play up on him, and from there he can go back to playing like Indiana Cody Zeller

[Bassman]

He needs to life weights a lot during the offseason, needs to get around 255 pounds so he can bang a little more and wont get pushed as easy, the average weight of a NBA PF is 250, he is 240 now he is to small

I don't even think lifting weights will help Zeller. Now that I've went back to watch the strengths of his game while at Indiana, he doesn't need anything that'll impede his speed like more weight because that's his primary advantage as a 7-footer. What he need to do is learn how to consistently make that jump shot at the top of the key at all cost. Once he get that down pact, the slower footed bigs will have to play up on him, and from there he can go back to playing like Indiana Cody Zeller

Agree with your conclusion. Zeller doesn't have the body-type to add major bulk. He has decent strength now (remember his measurables) but lifting weights does not translate into power. His keys are his athleticism/quickness relative to his size. Combine that with quality shooting and improved handles, and he can be a difficult matchup. His stroke doesn't look broken at all, but it is not effective right now. His defense has good moments. He has a lot to learn and I trust he will improve. Although I wanted us to draft Beal I was happy with Cody (given we had secured Jefferson prior). Time will tell.

[MKGsMotor]

He needs to life weights a lot during the offseason, needs to get around 255 pounds so he can bang a little more and wont get pushed as easy, the average weight of a NBA PF is 250, he is 240 now he is to small

I don't even think lifting weights will help Zeller. Now that I've went back to watch the strengths of his game while at Indiana, he doesn't need anything that'll impede his speed like more weight because that's his primary advantage as a 7-footer. What he need to do is learn how to consistently make that jump shot at the top of the key at all cost. Once he get that down pact, the slower footed bigs will have to play up on him, and from there he can go back to playing like Indiana Cody Zeller

Agree with your conclusion. Zeller doesn't have the body-type to add major bulk. He has decent strength now (remember his measurables) but lifting weights does not translate into power. His keys are his athleticism/quickness relative to his size. Combine that with quality shooting and improved handles, and he can be a difficult matchup. His stroke doesn't look broken at all, but it is not effective right now. His defense has good moments. He has a lot to learn and I trust he will improve. Although I wanted us to draft Beal I was happy with Cody (given we had secured Jefferson prior). Time will tell.

Beal wasn't in the same draft as Cody and we actually didn't have Jefferson before Cody.

I'll be honest, Cody looks really bad. Not anywhere close to the scoring big man I and I'm sure the Bobcats thought he'd be right off the bat.

[MKGsMotor]

I don't even think lifting weights will help Zeller. Now that I've went back to watch the strengths of his game while at Indiana, he doesn't need anything that'll impede his speed like more weight because that's his primary advantage as a 7-footer. What he need to do is learn how to consistently make that jump shot at the top of the key at all cost. Once he get that down pact, the slower footed bigs will have to play up on him, and from there he can go back to playing like Indiana Cody Zeller

Agree with your conclusion. Zeller doesn't have the body-type to add major bulk. He has decent strength now (remember his measurables) but lifting weights does not translate into power. His keys are his athleticism/quickness relative to his size. Combine that with quality shooting and improved handles, and he can be a difficult matchup. His stroke doesn't look broken at all, but it is not effective right now. His defense has good moments. He has a lot to learn and I trust he will improve. Although I wanted us to draft Beal I was happy with Cody (given we had secured Jefferson prior). Time will tell.

Beal wasn't in the same draft as Cody and we actually didn't have Jefferson before Cody.

I'll be honest, Cody looks really bad. Not anywhere close to the scoring big man I and I'm sure the Bobcats thought he'd be right off the bat.

I'll elaborate because I'm sure I'll get slack for "the scoring big man I and I'm sure the Bobcats thought he'd be right off the bat." Cody looks lost out there. I'm sure it's partly because he's being used unlike how he was for the past two years in college, but still. He looks completely panicked when he has the ball and usually doesn't even look at the rim. He is basically getting paid 4 million for being catching the ball and handing it off. He looks awful. I went to the Suns game and saw it up close. He barely boxed out, got tossed around like a six footer. He always looked lost and his main objective instead of trying to score, play defense, and be effective, is to just try not to break down and look like he doesn't belong. But that's exactly what he looks like sometimes. His numbers aren't good. Maybe for a second rounder there's passable. But Cody was the FOURTH pick overall. 90% of the NBA world was shocked when we got him, so don't act like it was an expected pick in a bad draft class. Cho's ass is on the line. I'm not writing Cody off completely, but let's be honest how many of us thought Cody would be averaging double digits right now?

This is coming from someone who came around on the pick after the initial shock. This is not looking good, fellas.

/rant

[Radu_Hornets]

Needed also to be here:

Thing is, Zeller is getting the ball in his spot. He loves the high post and needs space and quickness to beat his man and make a move toward the hoop. Gets bodied by his man, does a quick spin move around him and then finishes usually left with a driving layup, that was his go-to move at Indiana. The problem is, he can't throw the ball in the ocean right now and defenders are leaving him wide open and forcing him into jumpshots. So then he's either aggressive and trying to create something (he's not good at this, partly due to subpar handles) or being passive and just trying to keep the ball moving.

Looking at Cody's highlight and from what I remember of him in Indiana, he was never a stretch 4 who played mostly away from the rim.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6IrTEWLoy8[/youtube]

In this next video you'll see what the scouts said his positives and strengths were. At 7:18 of the video it says of his shooting potential that he "only took 24 jump shots but he has good mechanics (75.7 ft%) will be able to showcase shooting stroke more in the NBA game. So I cant understand how you can draft a athletic big with good post game and relegate him to being mostly a stretch 4 when thats not his game.

However it does say that his weakness is that he hasnt gotten stronger from his fresh to soph seasons and that he has tendency to get pushed around inside. If that was known you have to wonder why you'd draft a big guy 4th who seems weak inside. If you want a stretch 4 you wouldnt want that stretch 4 to be a guy who only took 24 jump shots the whole season would you?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wvb2SNJ9T4w[/youtube]

I think Zeller needs to get in the weight room workout with Oakley and Biz to develop strength and toughness and be used primarily as a posting, pick and roll type big man. I honestly see nothing in Zeller's game that says he should be used as a perimeter shooting big.

[EwingSweatsALot]

I really didn't know where to post this, but I was talking to Fats about this stat I have worked on and he pointed out the huge discrepancy between McRoberts and Zeller and how it confirms what his eyeballs are seeing when Zeller comes in and McRoberts goes out.

Basically the stat is based on what I call Direct Scoring Opportunities, field goal attempts, free throw attempts, and assist opportunities(passes leading to a shot, and if the shot was made it would be an assist). So I took these and got how many points each player on the team created from these opportunities. Then I figured out the difference between what the player created in points vs. what the team would create with those opportunities if that player was not playing.

For example, Cody Zeller has created 73 points on his scoring attempts(FGA and FTA) and 24 points on his assist opportunities. That comes to a total of 97 points created on 134 DSOs. 6.5 and 8.9 per game respectively. So what I did is took his 8.9 DSOs per game and figured out how many points would be created by the rest of team if Zeller was not playing and what the difference was. I did this for the whole team.

Well I was going to post the whole table, but I have no idea how to do that. Anyways. Zeller creates 1.47 points LESS than the team would without him. McRoberts creates 3.5 points MORE than the team would without him. Almost a 5 point difference in this one aspect of the game of basketball between the two guys that play for each other. It is a really big drop off from one to another.

I hope this made sense, I am terrible at explaining things.

[mrknowitall215]

I really didn't know where to post this, but I was talking to Fats about this stat I have worked on and he pointed out the huge discrepancy between McRoberts and Zeller and how it confirms what his eyeballs are seeing when Zeller comes in and McRoberts goes out.

Basically the stat is based on what I call Direct Scoring Opportunities, field goal attempts, free throw attempts, and assist opportunities(passes leading to a shot, and if the shot was made it would be an assist). So I took these and got how many points each player on the team created from these opportunities. Then I figured out the difference between what the player created in points vs. what the team would create with those opportunities if that player was not playing.

For example, Cody Zeller has created 73 points on his scoring attempts(FGA and FTA) and 24 points on his assist opportunities. That comes to a total of 97 points created on 134 DSOs. 6.5 and 8.9 per game respectively. So what I did is took his 8.9 DSOs per game and figured out how many points would be created by the rest of team if Zeller was not playing and what the difference was. I did this for the whole team.

Well I was going to post the whole table, but I have no idea how to do that. Anyways. Zeller creates 1.47 points LESS than the team would without him. McRoberts creates 3.5 points MORE than the team would without him. Almost a 5 point difference in this one aspect of the game of basketball between the two guys that play for each other. It is a really big drop off from one to another.

I hope this made sense, I am terrible at explaining things.

Oh, it makes a whole lot of sense, and sadly it is pretty obvious that the Bobcats are 100x better with journeyman Josh McRoberts in the lineup than 1st round 4th overall Cody Zeller in the lineup. I didn't really need numbers to justify what my eyeballs directly saw

Can you do the same thing with MKG vs Jeff Taylor? I think that might even be a bigger differential if not similar

[EwingSweatsALot]

I really didn't know where to post this, but I was talking to Fats about this stat I have worked on and he pointed out the huge discrepancy between McRoberts and Zeller and how it confirms what his eyeballs are seeing when Zeller comes in and McRoberts goes out.

Basically the stat is based on what I call Direct Scoring Opportunities, field goal attempts, free throw attempts, and assist opportunities(passes leading to a shot, and if the shot was made it would be an assist). So I took these and got how many points each player on the team created from these opportunities. Then I figured out the difference between what the player created in points vs. what the team would create with those opportunities if that player was not playing.

For example, Cody Zeller has created 73 points on his scoring attempts(FGA and FTA) and 24 points on his assist opportunities. That comes to a total of 97 points created on 134 DSOs. 6.5 and 8.9 per game respectively. So what I did is took his 8.9 DSOs per game and figured out how many points would be created by the rest of team if Zeller was not playing and what the difference was. I did this for the whole team.

Well I was going to post the whole table, but I have no idea how to do that. Anyways. Zeller creates 1.47 points LESS than the team would without him. McRoberts creates 3.5 points MORE than the team would without him. Almost a 5 point difference in this one aspect of the game of basketball between the two guys that play for each other. It is a really big drop off from one to another.

I hope this made sense, I am terrible at explaining things.

Oh, it makes a whole lot of sense, and sadly it is pretty obvious that the Bobcats are 100x better with journeyman Josh McRoberts in the lineup than 1st round 4th overall Cody Zeller in the lineup. I didn't really need numbers to justify what my eyeballs directly saw

Can you do the same thing with MKG vs Jeff Taylor? I think that might even be a bigger differential if not similar

I have the entire team in an excel file. I just don't know how to post a table without it being extremely jumbled.

The MKG/Taylor gap is not as big as McRoberts and Zeller. McRoberts is the top guy on the team in the stat and Zeller is 2nd to worst, worst being Pargo which doesn't really have enough of a sample size to count.

MKG is at .86 PC difference where Taylor is at -0.59 PC Difference.

MKG is actually number one on the team in the PC by scoring attempts differnece, which probably surprises some. McRoberts is number one in the PC by assist opportunities difference.

[Robot Rock]

Please, don't be Kirk Haston 2.0.

[countryboi]

who the hell is kirk haston

[mrknowitall215]

Please, don't be Kirk Haston 2.0.

He's on par

who the hell is kirk haston

A power forward the Charlotte Hornets drafted in the 1st round (16th overall) back in 2001 out of Indiana University

Hmmm...

[HornetJail]

Kevin Love eclipsed Haston's entire career totals in a single game.

[catch20two]

They drafted Kirk Haston over Zach Randolph.

[mrknowitall215]

They drafted Kirk Haston over Zach Randolph.

A decade from now they might be laughing at Rich Cho for draft Cody Zeller over Nerlens Noel

[Robot Rock]

Please, don't be Kirk Haston 2.0.

He's on par

who the hell is kirk haston

A power forward the Charlotte Hornets drafted in the 1st round (16th overall) back in 2001 out of Indiana University

Hmmm...

I'd say Zeller is better than Haston by at least a little bit. Zeller can at least run the floor, dunk the ball and grab errant rebounds on occasion.

[mrknowitall215]

I'd say Zeller is better than Haston by at least a little bit. Zeller can at least run the floor, dunk the ball and grab errant rebounds on occasion.

Certainly I think Cody Zeller is better than Kirk Haston. I'm just picking fun at the slight similarities like the fact that they are both tall white guys from Indiana University that was drafted by a Charlotte franchise in the 1st round. Also worth mentioning, Haston was "supposed" to be a stretch 4

[powerforward]

I knew when we picked haston back in the day it would be a mistake when his highlight video during the draft was a running 15 ft baseline hook.

Just a terrible pick. Don't think Cody is anywhere close to that, but I would love to see him in the post more instead of trying to drive to the basket.

[fatlever]

i remember the hornets front-office trying to sell haston to the fans. they kept talking about how he has an unguardable sky hook, best they had seen since kareem, that he could shoot with either hand.

meanwhile, there were rumblings in charlotte that haston was drafted to appease the white racists who were not happy about the hornets having an all-black (or mostly black) roster, that had also featured some knuckleheads - coleman, mason, davis - and getting over the wesley, phills racing incident.

now, there was never any proof about the motives for drafting haston, but there were certainly rumors.