Don't Be Hurtin' Lin - The Jeremy Lin Thread 2

[bws94]

tonman, Lin will improve with minutes. But in terms of shooting out of it, he tends not to do that anymore. What he does tend to do is come alive certain parts of the game and seem to just be complementary other times of the game. Like, he recognized pressure on Kemba and then took over in the Sacramento game looking a lot like Linsanity. But, how often does he do that? And even if pressure isn't on Kemba, he can just be more assertive. No?

you are assuming that Lin gets to play his game. i listened to the GS game and in the 3rd quarter when Lin came in, for 3 minutes the play-by-play guy didn't mention his name. i'm thinking for 3 minutes Lin didn't even touch the ball. so how is he going to assert himself?

What 13th man said regarding that game. But there are some games where Lin seems to flick the switch at some times in a game and be very active where other times he seems to be more focused on D and spreading the floor. In time perhaps, as he gets to know his team mates games better he'll be more active in getting his own shots or facilitate to them more. Especially when he's on the floor with Kemba.

[tonman]

Lin has one glaring weakness that holds him back from playing PG. His handles. I think he can easily fix the occasional tunnel vision and I think that's because of his handles. I think his shots will fall. I think he can learn when to roam and when to stay home on good 3 point shooters. But he needs to get his handles to the point where he can get to his spots when heavy pressure is applied. He can speed split defense and now defenses know it so they now scheme to where Lin gets sloppy with his handles. His dribbling is decent when he has space, it's his handles under pressure that just don't seem secure.

same excuse. if he has trouble with his handles in space, he has to work on dribbling in a crowd OR not going into a crowd. personally I'd prefer the reward of what Lin provides in attacking the rim to the risk of turnovers. at the end of the day, is it a benefit to the team despite the turnovers? yes. batum turns the ball over 3.2 times a game and only averages 4.2 or so assists per game. so why do we keep allowing batum to be playmaker? because at the end of the day, it's a positive for him to do so.

[bws94]

There are some TOs on the dribble under pressure from Lin but the problem is more not going into his offense and getting bad shots because he has the ball and is concentrating on dribbling rather than evading the pressure or passing out of it fast so the offense can keep moving. With Batum, it's mostly bad passes and an occasional losing the ball. With Lin, it is a stalled offense that results.

[hood30]

To me, Kemba has been more impressive this season thus far for sure, but as things normalize I'm hoping to see the scale balance out a bit. Do I think Kemba is 34 to 22 minutes better? No.

This is just my opinion and I could be wrong but getting right to the point without any sugar-coating: I think Kemba is being over-used at the PG position and Lin under-used. Here's another way of looking at it: Both are true PGs, Kemba gets to play 34 minutes a game at the pg position whereas Lin plays 10 at pg while 12 at sg. The discrepancy is huge (34-10 at pg).

This is Clifford's idealogy which I don't agree with. It may have seemed like a good idea initially but I don't see this being the most effective for the team. I wonder what Lin would've done if he knew he was going to play 5 minutes of pg per half, does that satisfy the "getting to play my game" criteria?

I think both player's effectiveness (Lin) and efficiency (Kemba) could be improved with more balance at the pg position. Whether this will happen who knows, not likely from what I'm seeing. There have been no indications to point to this direction, the only roles that have been changing are Jeremy Lamb's and Frank Kaminsky as of late.

This quote above is exactly where the problem lies with Clifford and Lin....Lin efficiency started dropping slowly after Clifford started playing Kemba huge minutes while curtailing Lin's minutes as the main point guard....During the first few weeks, Lin took 9 shots per game and saw enough time as the PG and facilitating...over the past 5 game, he's averaging about 4 shots and his usage has dropped...So in my opinion, Clifford should be blame for Lin's slippage in statistics.

It feels like Lin is playing most of his minutes off the ball and just sits on the corner doing nothing..So his PG duty has diminished and he can only stand on the corner....Unless Clifford rectifies this, Lin's number will continue to slip.

If Clifford refuses to allow Lin to facilitate for at least 15 minutes while giving Kemba proper rest, than he should simply trade Lin...What's the point of having Lin, a high-end back up point guard on your team if you don't trust him in giving your starter proper rest.

I would also like to point out that while Kemba is having the best year of his career when it come to shooting%, he still hasn't improved as a facilitator and a point guard....Kemba is only averaging 4.8 assist per game in 34mpg...That is not good for a starting point guard...and that's even lower than his career average which is 5.2apg......So there's no reason why Lin shouldn't facilitate for at least 15 minutes since Kemba is not great at it.

Over the past 5 games, Kemba is averaging 38minutes per, and this has come at the expense of Lin...It looks like Clifford has lost confidence in Lin facilitating and would rather play Kemba 40 a night just to keep Lin's hand off the ball as the PG.

[HornetJail]

I don't think we have any intention of playing Kemba for 40 minutes a night all season long. Clifford has FINALLY started to play the hot hand and I'm not about to stop him now- better late than never. It's more that Lin's minutes are decreasing because he's not playing well, rather than the other way around. A lot of you guys seem to think that Lin is not playing well because his minutes are decreasing and that simply isn't the case. Kemba really only gets 40 minutes when we get nothing out of Lin in a game. Otherwise, his minutes and Lin's minutes are pretty normal. You can watch the games, look at basketball reference's game logs or whatever you want to do, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that force feeding Lin 25-30 minutes every game is not what is going to win us games.

[bws94]

MKG, what I'm going to say sounds counterintuitive, but how well Lin plays shouldn't necessarily determine how much he plays. I think a lot of fans say play Lin 25-30 minutes because at any time, even after looking dreadful in a game, he can step it up. In the Sacramento Kings game he didn't play exceptionally well and seemed on his way to a ho-hum game in regulation. Then OT, he stepped it up.

But, unlike most fans I don't know if he should play PG to get the best out of him. I think he should be in the flow, the going to the corner is a waste. He should go out and get the ball, get it and do something other than dribble around and pass it back to Kemba or Batum. And it's hard to tell when he will just do that or make a pass leading to a good look or what. So, fans knowing Lin say play him, there's always the potential for a big play.

I say, play him if the matchups and game situations make sense. But he's kind of like a box of chocolates.

[Klazart]

I don't think we have any intention of playing Kemba for 40 minutes a night all season long. Clifford has FINALLY started to play the hot hand and I'm not about to stop him now- better late than never. It's more that Lin's minutes are decreasing because he's not playing well, rather than the other way around. A lot of you guys seem to think that Lin is not playing well because his minutes are decreasing and that simply isn't the case. Kemba really only gets 40 minutes when we get nothing out of Lin in a game. Otherwise, his minutes and Lin's minutes are pretty normal. You can watch the games, look at basketball reference's game logs or whatever you want to do, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that force feeding Lin 25-30 minutes every game is not what is going to win us games.

It's all chicken and egg. Sometimes players start well in games other times they don't. Rhythm is important. Usage and style of play is important. If you get enough opportunities your stats equalise over time. If you don't then they don't and it's a vicious circle of diminishing returns. There is no way to prove this of course. Anecdotally, when Iin was getting a lot more minutes and the ability to play out and through his mistakes he was putting up solid stats, I'm talking about Houston for example. A PG who isn't being allowed to facilitate for the few minutes he's on the court isn't going to give you jack.

Kemba started the season poorly, but he was still given enough minutes and usage to play through. All this is simply cause he was a high pick and Lin was undrafted. It's a self fulling prophecy. I don't see how Lin will ever get out of this. His career trajectory has been going downhill every year and he's simply not getting the opportunity to prove otherwise. I'd say to Lin fans that it is what it is, a lost cause. Time to move on.

As a fan from Ireland it leaves a bad taste of the NBA. But then that's just representative of America for me. The idea of equal opportunity and fairness is a mirage, the NBA is simply another manifestation of it.

[leeramundo]

I swear. Its almost as if some of you actually want Hornet fans to hate Lin with some of the crazy nonsense that is spewed on here. It won't work, though. I like him. Really solid player.

But I've never seen such madness in my life.

As a Lin fan I'm happy to hear you say this. I've beenstaying away from the boards the last few days cause of a few other Lin fans. I'm afraid they'll get to some of the posters here and start to get some legitimate Lin hate going like it happened at clutchfans. This is not to say there weren't real haters at clutchfans, but the few overzealous fans didn't help and compounded with trolls pretending to be Lin fans, made that board kind of a cesspool. I really hope that doesn't happen here. The good news is I haven't really seen any actual haters here. Crazy Lin fans and trolls though, there has been a few.

[tonman]

I don't think we have any intention of playing Kemba for 40 minutes a night all season long. Clifford has FINALLY started to play the hot hand and I'm not about to stop him now- better late than never. It's more that Lin's minutes are decreasing because he's not playing well, rather than the other way around. A lot of you guys seem to think that Lin is not playing well because his minutes are decreasing and that simply isn't the case. Kemba really only gets 40 minutes when we get nothing out of Lin in a game. Otherwise, his minutes and Lin's minutes are pretty normal. You can watch the games, look at basketball reference's game logs or whatever you want to do, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that force feeding Lin 25-30 minutes every game is not what is going to win us games.

Kemba last 5 games 2 games less than 1.0 pps 1 game at 1.125 posted and 2 games abover 1.2 pps. Average 38.8 mpg. We have won as many games when Kemba plays 40+ minutes vs. < 30 minutes. Kemba is Kemba regardless of how many minutes he plays. And 1 of the 3 games Kemba played over 40 minutes Lin scored 8 in overtime. That's after only scoring 6 in regulation. Again I am saying consistent minutes not whining for 30+ for lin. Those consistent minutes and proper usage should allow more of what we saw in that overtime game. And lin has played on a better overall team in Houston and produced.

Kemba's shooting isn't going to win us games. In 7 of 8 losses he's shot over 15 fga. In the 10 wins only 2 times did he shoot over 13 fga. Charlotte and Kemba are not Good enough to play hero ball.

[RealHusky]

Pretty good summary of what has happened to Lin this year. It isn't much different than what I been saying since early this year.

http://hoopshabit.com/2015/12/04/charlotte-hornets-kemba-walkers-effect-on-jeremy-lin/

[13th Man]

Pretty good summary of what has happened to Lin this year. It isn't much different than what I been saying since early this year.

http://hoopshabit.com/2015/12/04/charlotte-hornets-kemba-walkers-effect-on-jeremy-lin/

The article is in line with what I've been saying as well. I like Kemba, he's a good player and a good guy. Just want to see the ship being balanced out a bit more at the PG position and that's on Clifford.

[Walt Cronkite]

The article points out that 9 out of the 12 3s Lin has made without Walker have been assisted, so I don't know how much it really supports the idea that Lin can't play "his game" when Walker is sharing the floor with him. Furthermore, if his diehard supporters want Lin playing without Kemba on the court, I think they're going to be disappointed. His success shouldn't come at the expense of the team's and right now, the team is succeeding in part because Kemba has had a career year. Kemba's game has been pretty unchanged statistically with the exception of his shot falling at a higher rate, which I really don't want to change.

Somewhat related (and I know I've pointed this out before), the idea that Lin isn't getting to play "his way" doesn't seem to be supported by statistics. His usage rate (% of team possessions used by a player when he's on the floor) is the highest it's been since his Linsanity heyday, so he's getting the opportunities. He's playing on a team with a slower pace than those Knicks and has been protecting the ball better and taking less FTs in favor of more 3s than he was then, so there are differences, but when he gets on the floor he certainly gets to make offensive decisions that impact possessions.

[bws94]

The two most important, productive players on the team are Kemba and Batum. They'll always play with few exceptions. Can Lin do more with more minutes? Sometimes. Should it be placed on how he plays? His game history shows he can have ineffective play and help a team win by stepping up at any point in the game. So if I'm a team's coach, I pick the spots where he plays more due to matchups but try to get him playing time because of that quality. If he can help me win games, that's the bottom line.

[Walt Cronkite]

Totally agree with you bws94

[13th Man]

One thing that stood out for me in the article was:

When Walker is off the court, the Hornets as a team see a 7.6 percent increase in assist percentage (up to 62.5), they get an increase of 2.1 in assist ratio and the team’s eFG and TS percentages rise (4.4 and 4.1 percent, respectively). The team’s offensive rating jumps by 3.3 and the defensive rating improves by 7.5.

Can''t agree that Kemba should get superstar treatment. Playing close to 40 mins (over the last 5 games) is just too much especially if it negatively impacts the team. There are very few players that deserve this type of minutes in the league.

The strength of this team lies in it's balanced depth, asking for the roles to be allocated a bit more accordingly is not going to shake up or destroy the team dynamics but could improve it. Team wins should always trump individual player's egos or whatnot, unless you are Kobe (not saying that Kemba is Kobe lol).

[hood30]

Pretty good summary of what has happened to Lin this year. It isn't much different than what I been saying since early this year.

http://hoopshabit.com/2015/12/04/charlotte-hornets-kemba-walkers-effect-on-jeremy-lin/

My problem with this article is the writer making the point that Lin is stuck behind another "ball-dominant" player...In reality, I doubt Lin would be able to find a team that doesn't have such a player on their roster...Most teams have all-stars who needs the ball and are better than Lin....Although Kemba is not a "star", he does have better credential than Lin around the League.

The good point this article is making is the fact that Lin's minutes ar too inconsistent, specially at the point-guard position.

Also, while I suspected it, I wasn't aware the statistic of Lin playing PG without Kemba on the court, were so great.

So basically, the statistics is validating everything we've been saying...Lin is much better when he's at the Point guard...Lin is shooting 44%fg and 36%3point when Kemba is off the court...A lot of that has to do WITH lin standing on the corner while Kemba does his thing and create for himself.

The solution is simple....Let Lin facilitate for 15 minutes at PG and watch his stats improve...Let Kemba rest for longer..No need for him to play 35+ minute so early in the season...Kemba may be a better scorer and can create his own shot better, but he's not the better all-around point guard.

[ChokeFasncists]

The article points out that 9 out of the 12 3s Lin has made without Walker have been assisted, so I don't know how much it really supports the idea that Lin can't play "his game" when Walker is sharing the floor with him.

I guess most of them come from PnR where Lin is the ball handler and he gets the ball back from the roll man after passing to him.

[gafun]

If you judge Lin's performance based on his individual stats such as pts,APG, it might be not better than previous seasons which he played more minutes and more on PG role. But if you check the Hornets lineups performance, Lin almost in all top lineups (net rating) which usually Kemba and AL were absent. The reason is Lin always focus team work. He could do well on 1-1 if the space is open, but he would contribute much more to the team if he plays PG. unfortunately people always look at individual status and don't give credit for team players.

[hood30]

One thing that stood out for me in the article was:

When Walker is off the court, the Hornets as a team see a 7.6 percent increase in assist percentage (up to 62.5), they get an increase of 2.1 in assist ratio and the team’s eFG and TS percentages rise (4.4 and 4.1 percent, respectively). The team’s offensive rating jumps by 3.3 and the defensive rating improves by 7.5.

Can''t agree that Kemba should get superstar treatment. Playing close to 40 mins (over the last 5 games) is just too much especially if it negatively impacts the team. There are very few players that deserve this type of minutes in the league.

The strength of this team lies in it's balanced depth, asking for the roles to be allocated a bit more accordingly is not going to shake up or destroy the team dynamics but could improve it. Team wins should always trump individual player's egos or whatnot, unless you are Kobe (not saying that Kemba is Kobe lol).

I was surprised by these stats...This also explain how Mo William was able to greatly improve the Hornets with his play when Kemba was injured last year.

Not only is Lin's statistic suggesting he's better when Charlotte let's him facilitate, the stats also shows Charlotte is a much better team when Lin is allowed that freedom.

Now, I'm not calling for Lin to start..but it is clear Clifford needs to do better when it comes to using Lin off the bench....

I'd like to know the Hornets have an "analytic department" and are aware of these stats...Maybe they are aware of them but simply don't care.

Here's my solution for Clifford:

Sub out Kemba at the 5th minute mark of the first quarter..and bring in Lin...Let Lin facilitate for the remaining 5 minute left in the first.

Leave Lin in until the 6th minutes mark of the second quarter and sub Kemba in to replace Lin...Depending on how Lin is playing, you could even keep Lin in with Kemba, but personally, I'd like to separate them as much as possible.

Kemba can still get 30-31 minutes while Lin is guaranteed a floor of 25-28 minutes.....Lamb should start and P.J should be removed from the rotation.

[bws94]

13th man, my thoughts are Kemba was playing big minutes because he was on a real roll. His shooting efficiency, his assists, his impact on the game, his rebounding, his active defense, he was really putting it all together AND helping the team win games. In fact, were it not for him, a lot of Ws are Ls. Besides Batum, no one impacted the game more than Kemba. He was MVP some games, Batum others. Lin had significant contributions in a few games, crucial in others, but not really MVP of any game that I can think of besides perhaps the 1st Knicks game. So, it isn't star treatment more than Kemba playing out of his mind so he should be on the floor to help the team win.

hood, coaches don't allocate minutes to backup/sometimes 6th men so much. Lin is going to be used in his normal places and depending on what Clifford feels is right for any given team and matchup, he'll be on the floor or not. He may have a base 17-18 minutes, but that's all realistically he'll have. He can go up to 30 in some games, maybe more in OT games, and as low as around 17 in others. I think those fans wishing for more will have a long season ahead of them. I hope Clifford uses Lin more for a win-win. Lin get more chances to help the team and the team wins because Lin stepped up for them and made the big contributions.

I'm happy Lin is on a winning team with a coach that understands the game. I don't agree with all of his moves but fans always second guess coaches.