NBA ChoK16 - the Rich Cho Thread

[Eoghan]

Those glossy defensive stats aren't leading to many wins. Maybe I'm old school but you play defense to win games, not put up neat stats.

[yosemiteben]

We play the same teams everyone else does and we are better at rebounding against them. We have been for three straight years. Listing off some good rebounders doesn't change the reality that we have been one of if not the best defensive rebounding teams in the league.

If you think that our losing streak has more to do with our paint defense and defensive rebounding than our complete inability to guard the perimeter, then I think you need to examine our deficiencies a little more closely.

[bigbob]

We play the same teams everyone else does and we are better at rebounding against them. We have been for three straight years. Listing off some good rebounders doesn't change the reality that we have been one of if not the best defensive rebounding teams in the league.

If you think that our losing streak has more to do with our paint defense and defensive rebounding than our complete inability to guard the perimeter, then I think you need to examine our deficiencies a little more closely.

Yes we might be amazing at defensive rebounding this year but remind me again, what is our stats on offensive rebounding? Dead last? How can a team be 2nd best in the league in defensive rebounding but dead last in offensive rebounding? Is that even possible? Yes it is: The "coach cliff" playbook, use your 3 slow bigs to crowd the paint on the defensive end, then on the offensive end, have those bigs shoot 3s from the perimeter. If I could easily see his strategy from watching a few games, you can bet other teams have figured it out long ago. I get it though, Cliffs options are limited now that big Al is injured as well as mkg. But when other teams have clearly exposed the crap out of your strategy, its best to try something else...Play the traditional way: 1 big as center, not 2.

[JDR720]

hornets paint d stats

8th in defended fg% 6 feet or less (-1.7% and 57.4%) that would be worse if Al was playing, so we are probably slightly above average when the frontcourt is healthy (not counting MKG since he hasn't played this season).

3rd in FG attempts 6 feet or less (24.1)

4th worst in defended fg% 10 feet or less (-1.9% 51.7%) that would also be worse if Al was playing, so pretty terrible.

14th in defensive efficiency (would be worse if Al was playing)

2nd in defensive rebound% (but still about average in terms of total reb%)

[yosemiteben]

Look at our defensive stats on 3 point shots and long distance twos and you will unlock the secret to our losing streak.

[JDR720]

our terrible perimeter defense is probably a product of our defensive scheme (stop them from getting shots in the paint at all costs), we end up over helping and leaving guys open for easy shots and our bigs for the most part are bad at pnr defense. we have more perimeter defensive talent than paint defensive talent.

[Braggins]

Cliffords system is low margin of error basketball. We dont get offensive rebounds or transition baskets because we focus so much on transition d and defensive rebounding. So when we mess up and let a team get a couple more o-boards or fast break points than normal it can completely screw us since we most likely arent getting those points back with our own o-boards or fast breaks. These problems are amplified by having bigs that are such weak individual rebounders. I feel like this is why we always have good defensive rebounding and general defensive statistics but not many wins to show for it. I dont really see how it helps us much to accomplish those numbers the way we do. We arent getting any advantage in the rebounding or transition game. We are just making it a complete wash by eliminating offensive boards and transition points for both teams.

I think this has had a negative effect on our roster construction. Wouldnt it be better to be a good defensive rebounding team because we have good defensive rebounders rather than by having to completely give up on other aspects of the game that could be advantageous to us like transition scoring and offensive rebounding (if we still had Biz) because we completely sold out our interior toughness and frontcourt athleticism to acquire shooters?

Ive always felt like Cliffords system is designed to make a weak roster look mediocre. Its basically just playing things as safely as possible and hoping the other team makes more mistakes. But what happens when the other team doesnt make more mistakes? Where is our advantage coming from?

[yosemiteben]

our terrible perimeter defense is probably a product of our defensive scheme (stop them from getting shots in the paint at all costs), we end up over helping and leaving guys open for easy shots and our bigs for the most part are bad at pnr defense. we have more perimeter defensive talent than paint defensive talent.

Our scheme isn't built on defensive help in the paint, and I pretty strongly disagree that our bigs are poor PNR defenders. Marv, Cody, and Frank are all very mobile defenders that typically do very well in PNR situations. I strongly disagree that we have better perimeter defensive talent than paint defensive talent. What metrics are you using to support that claim?

[Braggins]

our terrible perimeter defense is probably a product of our defensive scheme (stop them from getting shots in the paint at all costs), we end up over helping and leaving guys open for easy shots and our bigs for the mst part are bad at pnr defense. we have more perimeter defensive talent than paint defensive talent.

Our scheme isn't built on defensive help in the paint, and I pretty strongly disagree that our bigs are poor PNR defenders. Marv, Cody, and Frank are all very mobile defenders that typically do very well in PNR situations. I strongly disagree that we have better perimeter defensive talent than paint defensive talent. What metrics are you using to support that claim?

We do aggressively help the paint at times. Clifford even talked about it when we started doing it last season to try to prevent Marv/Al from getting abused inside. Our bigs are good at defending pnr's though.

If over helping the paint was causing some of our 3 point defense issues i dont know that there is any metric that could express that. Nuances like that are part of the reason that advanced metrics can sometimes be misleading. Im not saying this is definitely the case as I havent paid a ton of attention to it lately. However, what seems like a more likely explanation for our interior defense being good, Marv/Al/Cody/Hawes/Frank all of a sudden becoming tough individual paint defenders or us overhelping as a team? I would actually say that our sudden inability to guard the 3 point line is more likely evidence that we are overhelping the paint than it is that our interior defense is stronger than our perimeter defense.

[JDR720]

pick and roll defensive stats

pnr roll man
1.07 PPP (3rd worst in league)
pnr handler
.086 ppp (4th worst in league)

and that is without Al for a good chunk of games.

more stats

off screens 1.02 ppg (5th worst)
hand offs .91 ppp (8th worst)
cuts 1.25 ppp (6th worst)

the more perimeter defense talent > interior defensive talent is mostly an opinion. by my count we have 1 above average defensive big (Cody) and 2-3 above average defensive guard (Nic,Lin and sometimes PJ)

[yosemiteben]

I don't think you can take PNR stats like those and attribute the weakness entirely to our bigs. It can also point to scheme breakdowns by the ball handle defender and help defense.

I think it's something that's worth watching generally and tough to diagnose the real problem without paying lots of specific attention to the issue. SURE WOULD BE NICE IF SOMEONE WHO WAS GOOD AT BREAKING DOWN GAME TAPE COULD WRITE A PIECE ON THIS :cough: Lamar :cough:

[gafun]

Only big guy who can play some PnR is Cody. Our bigs are either bad at setting screens or it is not a major part of game plan. AL always stayed near the paint. Hawes and Frank focus more on 3s than setting screens. We simply give up offense rebounds by staging bigs guy outside. 3s has become single major factor about win or loss to Hornets besides defense.


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[fatlever]

our terrible perimeter defense is probably a product of our defensive scheme (stop them from getting shots in the paint at all costs), we end up over helping and leaving guys open for easy shots and our bigs for the most part are bad at pnr defense. we have more perimeter defensive talent than paint defensive talent.

Our scheme isn't built on defensive help in the paint, and I pretty strongly disagree that our bigs are poor PNR defenders. Marv, Cody, and Frank are all very mobile defenders that typically do very well in PNR situations. I strongly disagree that we have better perimeter defensive talent than paint defensive talent. What metrics are you using to support that claim?

If the bigs aren't partially to blame for our woes in defending the pick and roll, then who is to blame? We can't put it all on Kemba, right? Seems like all our problems defending the perimeter come from our inability to deal with pick and roll situations.

Do you guys think this has anything to do with a change of scheme since losing Al? Obviously Al was a trainwreck defending the pick and roll, but he knew his limitations and sagged way off the picks, stayed in the paint and gave up wide open jumpers to the open big man. Cody on the other hand is playing the pick and roll entirely different with aggressive hedges out past the 3pt line.

[fatlever]

I don't think you can take PNR stats like those and attribute the weakness entirely to our bigs. It can also point to scheme breakdowns by the ball handle defender and help defense.

I think it's something that's worth watching generally and tough to diagnose the real problem without paying lots of specific attention to the issue. SURE WOULD BE NICE IF SOMEONE WHO WAS GOOD AT BREAKING DOWN GAME TAPE COULD WRITE A PIECE ON THIS :cough: Lamar :cough:

I was thinking the same thing... we need a really deep piece from Lamar breaking down, play by play, what is going wrong with our pick and roll defense and perimeter defense.

I pointed out a bunch of stats in the losing streak thread about how we are bottom of the league in defending the 3pt line recently. I think those pick and roll stats JDR posted also support the claim that something is really broken. I just don't know if its players who are just bad individual defenders or something we are (or are not) doing from a scheme standpoint. Our is it more related to the rotations being use?

[fatlever]

And even Cody who is supposed to be our best big man defender, has been making a lot of mistakes defending the pick and roll over our losing stretch.

The first year under Clifford I seem to remember us being one of the most conservative pick and roll defenses in the league - again partly due to Jefferson's inability to defend in space. Maybe we need to revert back to some more conservative approaches to our defense?

[Braggins]

Going purely by the eye test I would say that our bigs as a whole are pretty good at defending the pick and roll and perimeter (Cody, Marv, Frank), but are a bit weak inside (Marv, Frank, Al), and our guards are good at covering a lot of space on rotations but weak at defending the pick and roll. I'm sure I'm like 50% or more wrong because I haven't really been paying close attention lately, but thats the basic impression I've had this season.

[Hornet Mania]

This summer, at least on paper, it sure seemed like we opted for offensive talent over defensive talent with several of our choices. From a defensive perspective the changes all seem to leave us equal or worse on that end. Looks like this to me:

Hendo=Batum (Batum's defense hasn't been much better, imo, if at all. I chalk it up to offensive load)
Biz > Hawes
Winslow>Frank
Lamb=Lance (inept vs inept, Lamb is obviously waaaaaay better on O)

The one exception is the addition of Lin, who is very obviously superior to Roberts on both ends. All those changes plus the loss of MKG made it seem like only a matter of time until we got consistently exploited on the defensive end. I suspect it's a combo of lackluster defensive talent and scheme problems. Other teams have studied our success on that end early in the year and adjusted accordingly, we don't have the personnel to do much else than what we've been doing especially during the last few weeks when the injuries were piling up.

Hopefully when MKG comes back he can be the shot in the arm that tightens everything up once again. It's a lot to ask of a guy who has been out for months, but it's all we've got.

[TinmanZBoy]

Coach clifford said something like "from game 12-24? the hornets was the No.2 defense, and were facing pretty good competitions"... so he thinks it is not the team could not play good defense, the issue is the inconsistency....
the bad stretch (defensively) started at Clippers game at home, Lin was out with injury in that one, since then Lin missed another one, then Nic missed four...lamb hit a bad stretch... Frank, Daniels are always hit and miss defensively... nobody stepped up...

[DY_nasty]

Coach clifford said something like "from game 12-24? the hornets was the No.2 defense, and were facing pretty good competitions"... so he thinks it is not the team could not play good defense, the issue is the inconsistency....
the bad stretch (defensively) started at Clippers game at home, Lin was out with injury in that one, since then Lin missed another one, then Nic missed four...lamb hit a bad stretch... Frank, Daniels are always hit and miss defensively... nobody stepped up...

it started waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay before that

we shouldn't have beat toronto. the defense was basically trash from the orlando game and on

cliff is exactly right about the 24 game mark. we haven't been right since

the offense is more limited by injuries than the defense too imo

[HornetJail]

It is time to acquire a rim protector Cho. I'm tired of watching teams run the pick and roll on us only to have an easy layup or wide open 3 when we collapse. Still don't mind Zeller and am high on Frank but we need a rim protector that is not Tyler. The defense is sad but it was predictable coming into this season.

I still can't wrap my head around the fact that our team felt it appropriate to come into the season with Jefferson, Kaminsky, Zeller, Marvin, and Hawes as our rotation bigs.

I feel like you have to ignore stats to come to the conclusion that we haven't had excellent paint defense and defensive rebounding, like we have every year since Cliff has been our coach.

Our defense has to focus on the interior because of how glaring an issue it is. Our wings and guards average so many blocks because teams can waltz into the paint with no fear of a Bismack Biyombo protecting the rim. In a best-case defensive scenario, our guards shouldn't even be in the paint that much. Our "rim protectors" are so bad that our guards have to bail them out in the paint, thus leaving the 3-point shooters wide open. It's been happening constantly over the last ten games. Our wings and guards have to hang back and defend the drive instead of getting a good contest on the 3s, and as a result we've been getting scorched from three. If we didn't do that, we'd get burned on the interior. Defense starts on the interior and we're going to keep getting scorched like this until we've got something resembling a paint presence. Even slow ass Roy Hibbert would be a massive upgrade.

I feel like our defensive rebounding actually hurts the 3-point defense, because we have guys like Lamb and Kemba coming in to grab those boards. In the event where we don't get that rebound, Lamb or Kemba's man is wide open from 3. If we leave Cody, Kaminsky, Marvin, and Hawes to do all the board work and Lamb and Kemba stay on their man till the possession is over, we'll surrender a lot more offensive rebounds. We're in a lose-lose situation on defense with this roster.

Not sure how you don't see this.