Z-Rex: The Cody Zeller Thread

[Eoghan]

The mortal mind can barely fathom the level of suckiness that was Kirk Haston. Zeller looks like Bosh compared to that guy. He was basically a poor man's Skitishvilli. He was painfully slow, not athletic at all and all he could do was shoot which he was semi-decent at. Adam Morrison looks like LeBron James compared to that dude, he was that bad.

[Robot Rock]

i remember the hornets front-office trying to sell haston to the fans. they kept talking about how he has an unguardable sky hook, best they had seen since kareem, that he could shoot with either hand.

meanwhile, there were rumblings in charlotte that haston was drafted to appease the white racists who were not happy about the hornets having an all-black (or mostly black) roster, that had also featured some knuckleheads - coleman, mason, davis - and getting over the wesley, phills racing incident.

now, there was never any proof about the motives for drafting haston, but there were certainly rumors.

It wasn't racism, it was just a lousy pick. They reached for him when he wouldn't have gone higher than 25th or 30th otherwise.

But yeah, that's why I jokingly compare Zeller to him: tall, skinny white stretch 4 from Indiana who was a first-round pick by Charlotte. There are similarities. But Haston was historically bad. Probably a good guy though.

[LamarMatic7]

I really didn't know where to post this, but I was talking to Fats about this stat I have worked on and he pointed out the huge discrepancy between McRoberts and Zeller and how it confirms what his eyeballs are seeing when Zeller comes in and McRoberts goes out.

Basically the stat is based on what I call Direct Scoring Opportunities, field goal attempts, free throw attempts, and assist opportunities(passes leading to a shot, and if the shot was made it would be an assist). So I took these and got how many points each player on the team created from these opportunities. Then I figured out the difference between what the player created in points vs. what the team would create with those opportunities if that player was not playing.

For example, Cody Zeller has created 73 points on his scoring attempts(FGA and FTA) and 24 points on his assist opportunities. That comes to a total of 97 points created on 134 DSOs. 6.5 and 8.9 per game respectively. So what I did is took his 8.9 DSOs per game and figured out how many points would be created by the rest of team if Zeller was not playing and what the difference was. I did this for the whole team.

Well I was going to post the whole table, but I have no idea how to do that. Anyways. Zeller creates 1.47 points LESS than the team would without him. McRoberts creates 3.5 points MORE than the team would without him. Almost a 5 point difference in this one aspect of the game of basketball between the two guys that play for each other. It is a really big drop off from one to another.

I hope this made sense, I am terrible at explaining things.

Great job! Did you get the assist opportunities from player tracking over at nba.com/stats?

[theman]

I really didn't know where to post this, but I was talking to Fats about this stat I have worked on and he pointed out the huge discrepancy between McRoberts and Zeller and how it confirms what his eyeballs are seeing when Zeller comes in and McRoberts goes out.

Basically the stat is based on what I call Direct Scoring Opportunities, field goal attempts, free throw attempts, and assist opportunities(passes leading to a shot, and if the shot was made it would be an assist). So I took these and got how many points each player on the team created from these opportunities. Then I figured out the difference between what the player created in points vs. what the team would create with those opportunities if that player was not playing.

For example, Cody Zeller has created 73 points on his scoring attempts(FGA and FTA) and 24 points on his assist opportunities. That comes to a total of 97 points created on 134 DSOs. 6.5 and 8.9 per game respectively. So what I did is took his 8.9 DSOs per game and figured out how many points would be created by the rest of team if Zeller was not playing and what the difference was. I did this for the whole team.

Well I was going to post the whole table, but I have no idea how to do that. Anyways. Zeller creates 1.47 points LESS than the team would without him. McRoberts creates 3.5 points MORE than the team would without him. Almost a 5 point difference in this one aspect of the game of basketball between the two guys that play for each other. It is a really big drop off from one to another.

I hope this made sense, I am terrible at explaining things.

That is sort of a "well-duh", the opposite of an oxymoron, so obvious it doesn't need to be said. What you are saying is Zeller is playing like crap whiile McBob is not.

Could you run those same numbers for preseaon? As I recall Zeller was every bit as good if not better than McRobert in the preseason, but I can't find preseason numbers to prove it.

I still think Zeller will be a good player. At this point I have to question the coaching staff. Either they are telling him to play against his strength or he is doing it himself and they are not correcting him.

[LamarMatic7]

Could you run those same numbers for preseaon? As I recall Zeller was every bit as good if not better than McRobert in the preseason, but I can't find preseason numbers to prove it.

That's why it's the preseason. You play a lot against guys with unguaranteed contracts or 9-12th men.

I think someone playing bad basketball in the preseason or summer league is more of a red flag than somebody playing good is a sign of credibility.

[Amateur Wannabe]

Could you run those same numbers for preseaon? As I recall Zeller was every bit as good if not better than McRobert in the preseason, but I can't find preseason numbers to prove it.

That's why it's the preseason. You play a lot against guys with unguaranteed contracts or 9-12th men.

I think someone playing bad basketball in the preseason or summer league is more of a red flag than somebody playing good is a sign of credibility.

Agreed, especially for Summer League. I laughed at some guys playing there... yet Cody didn't play bad It's still a bit of shock to him, I guess.

[JDR720]

Cody averaged 8.88ppg and 6.12rpg in the preseason on 44% shooting

[mrknowitall215]

Cody averaged 8.88ppg and 6.12rpg in the preseason on 44% shooting

In how many minutes per game?

That'll be the deciding factor on if I think his preseason numbers indicate whether he was average or below average. Either way, it's marginally better than how he's playing now, but I want to put it in context

[JDR720]

Cody averaged 8.88ppg and 6.12rpg in the preseason on 44% shooting

In how many minutes per game?

That'll be the deciding factor on if I think his preseason numbers indicate whether he was average or below average. Either way, it's marginally better than how he's playing now, but I want to put it in context

22.8mpg

[mrknowitall215]

Cody averaged 8.88ppg and 6.12rpg in the preseason on 44% shooting

In how many minutes per game?

That'll be the deciding factor on if I think his preseason numbers indicate whether he was average or below average. Either way, it's marginally better than how he's playing now, but I want to put it in context

22.8mpg

That would make his preseason per 36 numbers look about 14 points & 10 rebounds. OK, I'll admit that he was at least decent in the preseason. I can't say the same for his regular season numbers though

[JDR720]

Cody's regular season per 36 numbers are about 10ppg and 8reb, if he would shoot better his scoring will probably be back to 14ppg per 36

[LamarMatic7]

Cody's regular season per 36 numbers are about 10ppg and 8reb, if he would shoot better his scoring will probably be back to 14ppg per 36

true. or also the difference between 14ppg and 10ppg shows the difference of playing against real NBA players or guys who are trying to make it.

[Eoghan]

Could you run those same numbers for preseaon? As I recall Zeller was every bit as good if not better than McRobert in the preseason, but I can't find preseason numbers to prove it.

That's why it's the preseason. You play a lot against guys with unguaranteed contracts or 9-12th men.

I think someone playing bad basketball in the preseason or summer league is more of a red flag than somebody playing good is a sign of credibility.

Everyone needs to And 1 this post. Not mine, Lamar's.

[lmcguir5]

I don't think most of the board is appreciating the fact that he's being asked to do something he never did at IU, and that is to become a stretch four. Yes, he was bigger than most of the competition in college, and no that won't translate to the NBA but he needs the time to adjust. Have I called him a dumpster fire before? Yes. But I also defended him in saying that he is only going to improve with more playing time. Practice will never completely prepare you for when the bullets start flying in a real game.

[catch20two]

I don't think most of the board is appreciating the fact that he's being asked to do something he never did at IU, and that is to become a stretch four. Yes, he was bigger than most of the competition in college, and no that won't translate to the NBA but he needs the time to adjust. Have I called him a dumpster fire before? Yes. But I also defended him in saying that he is only going to improve with more playing time. Practice will never completely prepare you for when the bullets start flying in a real game.

Stretch 4, blah blah blah. He showcased himself as such in the predraft workouts and tricked us into believing it. I feel no pity for him trying to convert into a stretch 4. He made that hard bed himself to divert the attention away from how soft he is in the paint. It's not like he's finishing well around the rim anyway.

I'm going to be his worst critic until he reach at least average numbers. He's playing like a undrafted free agent forced into playing time because of injuries instead of a top 5 pick. He's getting wide open looks 15 feet from the rim that even Tristan Thompson (not a stretch 4) can make.

[lmcguir5]

I don't think most of the board is appreciating the fact that he's being asked to do something he never did at IU, and that is to become a stretch four. Yes, he was bigger than most of the competition in college, and no that won't translate to the NBA but he needs the time to adjust. Have I called him a dumpster fire before? Yes. But I also defended him in saying that he is only going to improve with more playing time. Practice will never completely prepare you for when the bullets start flying in a real game.

Stretch 4, blah blah blah. He showcased himself as such in the predraft workouts and tricked us into believing it. I feel no pity for him trying to convert into a stretch 4. He made that hard bed himself to divert the attention away from how soft he is in the paint. It's not like he's finishing well around the rim anyway.

I'm going to be his worst critic until he reach at least average numbers. He's playing like a undrafted free agent forced into playing time because of injuries instead of a top 5 pick. He's getting wide open looks 15 feet from the rim that even Tristan Thompson (not a stretch 4) can make.

I understand what you're saying but everyone knew that he was going to have a difficult time making the transition because of his size. So yes, I am going to defend him when we are asking him to be a completely different player. I know he was the fourth overall pick, but everybody knew that the last draft wasn't the strongest in the world. I would still rather watch Zeller struggle than to ever claim Byron Mullens belongs to my team. Just think, would you rather watch Zeller or Mullens?

[catch20two]

Just think, would you rather watch Zeller or Mullens?

I'd rather have Zeller over Mullens but only because he has a more likeable personality, not because he's a better player. Hopefully Zeller will be better than Mullens eventually. That shouldn't be that hard to do.

[Eoghan]

If your best defense is "At least he's not Mullens" that doesn't sound too good.

[JDR720]

at least Zeller doesn't chuck up 6 threes a game

[Snidely FC]

You know, I once read a study about chess players. The study took MRI's of chess players brains. What the MRI's showed was that beginning chess players use the Analysis part of the brain, whereas Master chess players use the Memory part of the brain. This can be extrapolated to all sports to explain the phenomenon of the game "slowing down." With experience an athlete moves from thinking - which causes hesitation - to reacting, as their brain moves from Analysis to Memory. This can explain why someone can look so good in Summer League versus other inexperienced players but then can't perform to the same level versus experienced players.

You joke at least Cody doesn't chuck up threes, but that is actually an important point. He is not irrationally confident about what he can do on the court ala Mullens. To me his problem is the exact opposite. He lacks surety in what he is doing. He looks tentative. That is effecting everything he does, especially his shot, which is hitting the front of the rim every time. Players that come into this league ready to play at the right speed are extremely rare. Cody is doing everything one beat too slow. To me that doesn't mean he sucks. That means he needs time to adjust, time for the game to slow down for him.

That's my long winded way of saying that I am surprised at the level of derision toward Cody Zeller. This team did Cody no favors by signing Al Jefferson after drafting him, pushing him out of the post. Nor has Clifford done him any favors with odd usage. Not only is Cody inexperienced, but his coach has no familiarity with the best way to use him. I look at Cody Zeller and marvel at a 7 foot fluid, athletic twenty one year old, and see massive potential. It's clear now this it not a great team. We need to focus on collecting assets. Management and coach need to figure out how to best use our young assets. I don't care if Cody was drafted at four or ten, that's water under the bridge. I am still excited about Cody Zeller's potential.