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Signed By Indiana - The Jeremy Lamb Thread

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Re: Rustler - The Jeremy Lamb Thread 

Post#981 » by Braggins » Mon May 9, 2016 11:32 pm

fatlever wrote:
Joest2003 wrote:I have to disagree. I think he's above average at mid range and drives off the glass. He is a professional scorer and that has value in this league. When he comes in the game you know hes going to score the ball unlike Daniels where if he doesn't get a spot up open 3 he ain't going to score. And rebounding. Lamb is deff above average at his position at rebounding.


So, he is above average at one of the most inefficient shots in basketball - mid range jump shots, a shot that isn't what our offense is designed to produce - and he is a good rebounding shooting guard, which really isn't very important, especially for a team that lead the league in def rebounding %. When he moves over to small forward you lose any rebounding advantage he had at SG.

Mid range shootibg is still valuable as a counter to when defenses sell out super hard against 3s and layups. Having someone who can take advantage of that space in the middle, even if it isnt a primary strategy, can go a long ways towards keeping defenses honest.
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Re: Rustler - The Jeremy Lamb Thread 

Post#982 » by qiantom » Mon May 9, 2016 11:47 pm

Lamb was banished because of his defense. His offense has always been good enough. With Al back on the bench, there were just too many bad defenders on the 2nd unit that changes had to be made. Al and Lamb and Frank together on the court was disastrous if you remember.
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Re: Rustler - The Jeremy Lamb Thread 

Post#983 » by qiantom » Mon May 9, 2016 11:51 pm

Braggins wrote:
fatlever wrote:
Joest2003 wrote:I have to disagree. I think he's above average at mid range and drives off the glass. He is a professional scorer and that has value in this league. When he comes in the game you know hes going to score the ball unlike Daniels where if he doesn't get a spot up open 3 he ain't going to score. And rebounding. Lamb is deff above average at his position at rebounding.


So, he is above average at one of the most inefficient shots in basketball - mid range jump shots, a shot that isn't what our offense is designed to produce - and he is a good rebounding shooting guard, which really isn't very important, especially for a team that lead the league in def rebounding %. When he moves over to small forward you lose any rebounding advantage he had at SG.

Mid range shootibg is still valuable as a counter to when defenses sell out super hard against 3s and layups. Having someone who can take advantage of that space in the middle, even if it isnt a primary strategy, can go a long ways towards keeping defenses honest.


Correct, but not so much for role players. Star players need to be able to hit the midrange, so Kemba's ability to hit those is key for the team in late game situations. Bench players like Lamb have much more value if they can hit threes, drive to the basket and play defense. You are playing against opposing benches, so you should be able to get those high efficiency shots most of the time for yourself or your teammates.
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Re: Rustler - The Jeremy Lamb Thread 

Post#984 » by Braggins » Mon May 9, 2016 11:53 pm

I'm more on the catch22 side of this argument. I don't actually mind Cliff not trusting Lamb with a rotation spot for the playoffs, although I think some of the reasoning behind it (the move to second unit Alfense) was misguided, but I also think people are going a little overboard with the extent that they are downplaying Lamb's contributions this season. He was our second best scorer and carried our bench (along with Lin) for half of the season. Im not even sure we would have been able to keep our heads above water long enough for MKGs return and the Lee trade to propel us to the playoffs if it wasn't for Lamb. He was a key factor in so many wins and actually carried the team in a fair amount of games. He lost his rotation spot for the playoffs because Daniels was a better fit for Alfense, and the way Cliff tightened the rotation didn't leave much need for a 4th wing. His defensive issues put him clearly behind Lee and Lin in the pecking order, which is fine, but doesn't necessarily mean that Lamb is a lost cause or anything. Daniels is not nearly as good as Lamb, but when you are only looking for someone to be a spot up deep threat for a few minutes here and there then he makes more sense than Lamb.
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Re: Rustler - The Jeremy Lamb Thread 

Post#985 » by Braggins » Tue May 10, 2016 12:05 am

qiantom wrote:
Braggins wrote:
fatlever wrote:
So, he is above average at one of the most inefficient shots in basketball - mid range jump shots, a shot that isn't what our offense is designed to produce - and he is a good rebounding shooting guard, which really isn't very important, especially for a team that lead the league in def rebounding %. When he moves over to small forward you lose any rebounding advantage he had at SG.

Mid range shootibg is still valuable as a counter to when defenses sell out super hard against 3s and layups. Having someone who can take advantage of that space in the middle, even if it isnt a primary strategy, can go a long ways towards keeping defenses honest.


Correct, but not so much for role players. Star players need to be able to hit the midrange, so Kemba's ability to hit those is key for the team in late game situations. Bench players like Lamb have much more value if they can hit threes, drive to the basket and play defense. You are playing against opposing benches, so you should be able to get those high efficiency shots most of the time for yourself or your teammates.

I don't really agree with a lot of this. Second unit defense still often sell out to stop 3s and layups. There is still value to having a guy out there who can be a release valve by hitting those mid range shots. When Kemba wasn't in the game Lamb pretty much took on his role as our primary scoring threat, so it still is very relevant that he can take advantage of open mid range shots. As far as whether or not that ability is more or less important than spot up shooting, I would say that it just depends on the context. When we made the move towards running Alfense on the second unit then yeah, Daniels spot up shooting was more valuable. Alfense negates what Lamb likes to do anyways and you just want a spot up shooter at that position. When we weren't doing Alfense we needed a primary scoring threat and Lambs ability to create his own shot from pretty much anywhere on the floor and all the other things he can do on offense are more valuable. We made up for his lack of spot up shooting at other positions (having Hawes at center instead of Al).

My only problem with the way Lamb got handled at the end of the season was that I don't think we ever should have went to trying to run Alfense with the bench unit. Al is absolutely atrocious and imo was literally the worst player on our team other than Harrison and MAYBE Hansbrough. He is one of the most negative impact players in the entire league. Lamb isnt any more of a liability on defense than Al and he is a better scorer and a better fit with the other players on the bench. The Lin/Lamb/Frank/Hawes bench core performed much better than Lin/Daniels/Frank/Al and it was extremely obvious. This is one of the issues I still have with Clifford. He still does things that are very obviously incorrect because he has too many stupid old man principles.
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Re: Rustler - The Jeremy Lamb Thread 

Post#986 » by yosemiteben » Tue May 10, 2016 12:34 am

Lamb was outstanding from the start of the season through 12/1. During that period he actually got more minutes than Lin, shot 52% from the field and 36% from three. From 12/1 through the end of the season his scoring fell off a cliff - he shot 42% from the field and 28% from three.

Lamb was straight up bad offensively for 75-80% of the season. His shooting %'s from December through February are worse than his averages from December through the end of the season, so it's not accurate to say that playing with Al caused that drop.
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Re: Rustler - The Jeremy Lamb Thread 

Post#987 » by Braggins » Tue May 10, 2016 12:55 am

The move to Alfense may not have been the reason for his bad performances, but I do think it was a big part of the reason he ultimately lost his spot. When you are running offense through Al then all you really want from your other positions are spot up shooters and defenders. Lamb wasn't hitting 3s or playing good defense, so he got replaced by someone who also wasn't playing good defense, but who we know is going to hit open 3s. His replacement then got collectively replaced by Lee, Batum, and Lin in the playoffs. I think It is sensible from the perspective of wanting to run Alfense.
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Re: Rustler - The Jeremy Lamb Thread 

Post#988 » by Vanderbilt_Grad » Tue May 10, 2016 1:48 am

Al went down on Nov 29th. Lamb's decline matched the roster adjustments made after that.
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Re: Rustler - The Jeremy Lamb Thread 

Post#989 » by JMAC3 » Tue May 10, 2016 5:31 pm

I think we need to get back on the Jeremy Lamb train as an organization.

He struggled down the stretch without a doubt, but lets remember how happy we all were early in the year with that signing. He starts a 3/21 this season, which is still not an awful contract in the grand scheme of things. Also, it is very unlikely we can trade him as his value is at an all-time low as he fell out of favor and is no longer a young player on a rookie deal. We need to approach him as a major part of the rotation heading into next season.

Lets remember the positives he brings to the court as I think we focus too much on the negatives with him. He is a good scorer as he can score at all three levels in the pros- 3s, midrange, and getting to the bucket. Also, he is a good rebounder due to his length and can help grab boards when the bigs do a good job boxing out, this shows on the offensive end as well as he is prone to tip ins. He is also a strong athlete as he is not scared to attack the rim aggressively and he picks up easy buckets that we struggle to find with inbound lobs and transition leak outs. He also, showed he can be a playmaker for others when he is given the chance and seems like an ideal secondary playmaker on the second unit.

His weaknesses are he is not a great mental player and he tends to get unorganized on both ends of the court. Defensively he is not a great lateral quickness guy and is poor at fighting over screens. Also, he tends to get lost starring at the ball and this allows his man to slip to basket or re-locate to an open area on the perimeter for shots. He needs to continue to get stronger in the weight room, but a lot his mistakes can be fixed with more mental focus. He has the length to be an average defender and that would be enough to get him minutes. If he can get stronger that would be great, because with his length and athleticism he may be able to switch over to slower SF and be less likely to get beat off the dribble.

If this team is able to re-sign Lin and Batum, we would have a pretty strong wing rotation with these 5 guys and allow us to focus on the front court issues.

PG- Kemba (36)- Lin (12)
SG- Batum (24)- Lin (12)- Lamb (12)
SF- MKG- (36)- Batum- (12)

We could sign a cheap Vet to play minutes at SF if we were in a pinch- Caron Butler or whoever.
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Re: Rustler - The Jeremy Lamb Thread 

Post#991 » by Mystical Apples » Sat May 14, 2016 11:23 pm

*Note - a few names shifted slightly away from their bubbles. Lamb is actually in the upper right quadrant, directly to the left and below Kaminsky (Kaminsky is the bubble between "Kaminsky" and "Delly").

I was going to drop this on Kaminsky's thread but it has more to do with Lamb (and Lin's future), IMO. I sorted all players with > 300 FGA, (25) 25-29ft FGA, 25 Drives FGA, and > 30% from 25-29 ft. For this exercise I was interested in player usage/tendencies instead of volume or performance so I expressed FGA's as ratios instead of total volume. Had I sorted this differently, say with total Drives instead of Drive FGA, the chart would look considerably different.

X-axis = ratio of Drives FGA to total FGA.
Y-axis = ratio of 25-29ft FGA to total FGA.

Bottom Left Quadrant: Players who can space the floor and drive but predominantly 3/4/5's with usage elsewhere.

Top Left Quadrant: Predominately C&S floor spacers (or Pullups) who drive relatively little. Batum is an oddity because he rarely drives, otherwise he has little in common with these players.

Bottom Right Quadrant: With few exceptions, these are the guys you don't want to play with. Let's move on.

Top Right Quadrant: Generally PG's who can space the floor but also attack. Oh, and Frank Kaminsky and Jeremy Lamb. Had I sorted using total drives instead of drives fga Frank and Jeremy would shift a little closer to Gallo or left of him.

So about Lamb. IMO he fell out of the rotation almost entirely for offensive reasons and lineup construction. Overall, Lamb's not a good team defender but combined with Kaminsky's mobility in defending PNR and Lin's strength, Lamb's challenges getting over screens was marginalized while his length on switches and shot clock closeouts was maximized. Thus, on that unit he was a plus defender. Defensive rebounding was another bonus creating grab-n-go cross matches on the other end.

Offensively, combinations of Lamb + Kemba + Frank + Lin were a stilted mess of 4 guys with attacking tendencies. Hawes + Marvin (Top Left Quadrant) helped make it work overall. Almost everyone’s TS% dipped with Lamb “ON” but not Hawes - Lamb and Hawes were good for each other.

When the December injuries hit, Marvin remained at PF almost exclusively which altered the dynamics. Al's February return forced Clifford to find the right combination of floor spacing, defensive perfume for Al's 1 man zone, and lower usage attackers who didn't need Al’s space to contribute. Thus, Lamb's role and Kaminsky's usage changed dramatically.

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Re: Rustler - The Jeremy Lamb Thread 

Post#992 » by fatlever » Sat May 14, 2016 11:48 pm

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Re: Rustler - The Jeremy Lamb Thread 

Post#993 » by Mystical Apples » Sat May 14, 2016 11:50 pm

The short version of the above: lineup construction matters as much (or more) than the individuals themselves, assuming most things remain equal. If Lamb is central to the future then I have doubts Lin returns and certainly not Al.

MKG will be at worst the team's second most efficient PNR handler - one of Lamb's strength's and possibly an issue if Clifford envisions MKG expanding his offensive skill set with the 2nd unit. Otherwise, Lamb could thrive as a lanky defender surrounded by shooting and mobility elsewhere.
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Re: Rustler - The Jeremy Lamb Thread 

Post#994 » by Radu_Hornets » Wed Jun 1, 2016 9:19 pm

Am I the only one to still believe Lamb will provide something to the team next year ?
I mean, I still think he can be a very good bench player...
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Re: Rustler - The Jeremy Lamb Thread 

Post#995 » by Vanderbilt_Grad » Wed Jun 1, 2016 10:39 pm

I suspect that he can ... depending on what other moves the team makes over the summer.
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Re: Rustler - The Jeremy Lamb Thread 

Post#996 » by Braggins » Wed Jun 1, 2016 10:48 pm

I expect his role next season will be similar to this season. He'll play a big part in our rotation for most of the regular season, but his role will probably be reduced somewhat for the post season. I don't think he will lose his spot like he did this year, though, just be featured less down the stretch.
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Re: Rustler - The Jeremy Lamb Thread 

Post#997 » by LofJ » Wed Jul 27, 2016 3:16 pm

http://www.atthehive.com/2016/5/27/11744086/looking-back-at-jeremy-lambs-uneven-defense

Lamar may be onto something about Lamb's defense. Due to his agility, length, and instincts Lamb has untapped potential there, he's not a lost cause on defense at all in my opinion. He needs to work on taking better angles around picks and to add strength so he can fight through them. If he can improve in those areas and ensure that he also stays mentally engaged at all times he will be a plus defender and a great player to have as the 1st wing off the bench.

The reports that Clifford was giving him 1 on 1 coaching and the pictures of him in the team weight training facility prove that we're working on it with him. I'm hopeful that Lamb will come out strong next year and gain Clifford's trust.
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Re: Rustler - The Jeremy Lamb Thread 

Post#998 » by fatlever » Tue Aug 23, 2016 6:15 pm

http://www.atthehive.com/2016/8/23/12609916/jeremy-lamb-offseason-maturity-player-person

Lamb referred to last year as his “first full season” in the NBA, and said he didn’t realize just how valuable sleeping well, eating right, and planning your workouts are to your game.

"You know, I've been in Charlotte pretty much the whole (summer), trying to stay around the coaches and get their feedback,” Lamb said. “I've been working on my mindset and my physical strength so it's been a great summer."

"The biggest goal for me is to fight for my minutes and have energy every night,” Lamb said. “If I do those things, I'll be able to be on the court.”
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Re: Rustler - The Jeremy Lamb Thread 

Post#999 » by fatlever » Thu Aug 25, 2016 4:25 am

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Re: Rustler - The Jeremy Lamb Thread 

Post#1000 » by Johnstarks » Thu Aug 25, 2016 9:24 am

I think lamb is what made lin and Lee so expendable. Why should $24m to replace them when 7m already allocated to lamb and sessions could be had for 6..., that leaves 11 extra to use toward zeller or ~16-17 to his replacement.

I think lamb will perform better this year and I really like the length on the perimeter with lamb, mkg, and batum.

If hornets had just kept biyombo on a cheap deal they'd be dark horse contenders. Hibbert/hawes backup combo is quite the nightmare in the postseason esp if zeller gets hurt again

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