Pulling Against my Home Team

[dmutombo321]

I notice fats mention in the game thread that he no longer particularly cares whether the team wins or loses when he watches games since he recognizes that the team has a first round ceiling at best. Instead, he just hopes to be entertained.

I take it a step further and actually pull for the opposition every game. The ideal game outcome for me is a Bobcats loss in which the team is competitive, our young guys like DJ and Brown show development and Wallace/Jax have strong games to keep their trade values high.

Barely scraping by to narrowly win games against bad lottery teams like Minny, NJ, Washington and Toronto is nothing for them to be proud of. Those types of wins, while gratifying in the short term, actually harm the franchise, not help it.

Its looking more and more like MJ is going to be too stubborn to rebuild and this team will continue to flounder in perpetual mediocrity for the next 5-6 years.

My hope was that something like a 3-15 start would open his eyes and make him come to terms with what needs to be done. Instead, I can already see another 35-42 win season shaping up from a mile away.

As long as the team remains mediocre and not bad, the competitor in MJ will continue to cling to the fantasy that the team can somehow raise their game and pull of a triumphant first round upset against an Orlando or Boston. Accordingly, he’ll continue to stick with the status quo and/or pursue bandaid trades that will keep the team too good to have a shot at drafting a difference maker yet too pedestrian to ever have a shot at being competitive in the post season.

Whenever blowing up to rebuild via the lottery is mentioned, someone invariable quips about how that makes no sense because the FO botched their picks in the 05 and 06 drafts when they had top 5 selections. This is true. And there is no guarantee it wont happen again. But if you’re not in the picking in the top 5-6 range, you don’t even give yourself a chance to succeed because the John Walls, Blake Griffins and Kevin Durants are all off the board.

Small market teams who assemble competitive rosters do so through the lottery because they aren’t going to attract top tier free agents. If allstar players like Chris Paul, Kevin Durant and Andrew Bogut all started their careers in LA or NY, cities like New Orleans, OKC and Milwaukee wouldn’t stand a snow ball’s chance in hell at courting them as free agents. But since these players started their careers with these small market teams via the draft, they cultured relationships, became comfortable in their respective cities and all signed extensions.

Sadly, this season is going to shape up one of two ways: another first round embarrassment or narrowly missing the playoffs. Either way, it wont matter. They will have insignificant financial flexibility to make any meaningful additions or trades and the draft pick they’ll earn will be in the 12-16 range, granting them the right to select a GOAT dynamo like Kyle Singler.

[captaincrunk]

Barely scraping by to narrowly win games against bad lottery teams like Minny, NJ, Washington and Toronto is nothing for them to be proud of. Those types of wins, while gratifying in the short term, actually harm the franchise, not help it.

You'd be singing differently if we were 8/2 instead of what we are now. That's understandable. But to act as though beating teams that are worse than us is a bad thing is pretty much ludicrous. We SHOULD be winning those games. We should be pushing games with the Jazz to the last minute. If anything, the last two games have shown me that the bobcats can do what a playoff team can do. Compete with other Playoff teams, and win against the rest. Add in the fact that the Bobcats always seem to have a slow start and tend to somehow do better against better teams and you'll see it's worth a "wait and see" approach.

My hope was that something like a 3-15 start would open his eyes and make him come to terms with what needs to be done. Instead, I can already see another 35-42 win season shaping up from a mile away.

A 3/15 start probably would open his eyes. It would mean we had a horrible team, and needed to rebuild. But we don't have a horrible team.

As long as the team remains mediocre and not bad, the competitor in MJ will continue to cling to the fantasy that the team can somehow raise their game and pull of a triumphant first round upset against an Orlando or Boston. Accordingly, he’ll continue to stick with the status quo and/or pursue bandaid trades that will keep the team too good to have a shot at drafting a difference maker yet too pedestrian to ever have a shot at being competitive in the post season.

You do realize that we've traded away loads of picks right? We didn't even get to draft in the second round last year. This year will be better but not by much.

Whenever blowing up to rebuild via the lottery is mentioned, someone invariable quips about how that makes no sense because the FO botched their picks in the 05 and 06 drafts when they had top 5 selections. This is true. And there is no guarantee it wont happen again. But if you’re not in the picking in the top 5-6 range, you don’t even give yourself a chance to succeed because the John Walls, Blake Griffins and Kevin Durants are all off the board.

Rajon Rondo wasn't a top 5 pick. Assuming that will work is stupid. Sure it's more likely to work but there are no guarantees in the draft.

Small market teams who assemble competitive rosters do so through the lottery because they aren’t going to attract top tier free agents. If allstar players like Chris Paul, Kevin Durant and Andrew Bogut all started their careers in LA or NY, cities like New Orleans, OKC and Milwaukee wouldn’t stand a snow ball’s chance in hell at courting them as free agents. But since these players started their careers with these small market teams via the draft, they cultured relationships, became comfortable in their respective cities and all signed extensions.

Exactly! That's why LeBron is still in cleveland, and Melo will be staying in Denver, and Bosh will be chillin in Toronto! Hooray draft! Oh, and I hear Chris Paul might be going to NY anyway.

Sadly, this season is going to shape up one of two ways: another first round embarrassment or narrowly missing the playoffs. Either way, it wont matter. They will have insignificant financial flexibility to make any meaningful additions or trades and the draft pick they’ll earn will be in the 12-16 range, granting them the right to select a GOAT dynamo like Kyle Singler.

Yes, because no one in the 12-16 range has ever won championships ever!

[Stun704]

Yeah, because Kobe Bryant was a top 10 pick as well..

Bottom Line: You aren't winning a championship in this league unless you are lucky enough to select a generational talent, and more then likely that generational talent isn't recognized as one when you select it.. Are the Blazers gonna win a championship with their current roster? probably not, and they were the poster boys for building through the draft.. so was are the thunder, and I doubt they'll ever win a championship... to win a championship as a small market, its more luck then anything, and mortgaging your team, for the hope of a future isn't the answer IMO, because you never know what the future holds. Having your team max out its potential and make the best selections possible regardless of your pick ALA Spurs... is the best route to take IMO because there is ALWAYS atleast one player that falls through the cracks.

[fatlever]

i should clarify a little... its not so much that i dont care if we win, its just that if we lose its not going to make me upset for more than 5 minutes. of course, each game i would prefer to see us win, but more importantly for me right now is that the team games are fun to watch.

my favorite season so far as a bobcats fan was 2006-2007 (more specifically from Jan-Apr 2007 when walter herrmann took the league by storm, when matt carroll lit up the winter and when wallace was still playing like wallace. for me, that was by far the most entertaining the bobcats have ever been.

there were many times last year and so far this year that i was very bored watching the bobcats. i can live with boring if my team is winning a lot of games and competing deep into the playoffs. but i would rather be a very entertaining team winning 30 games then a boring team winning 40 games. if and when the bobcats reach a level of consistent playoff play, then i will allow myself to get angry during a loss.

its like this, the bobcats are my fave team, but i get more upset when chelsea loses than when the bobcats lose, because chelsea is competing for championships, the bobcats are not. chelsea losing a game has a much greater impact on their season. i was way more upset at chelsea losing 0-3 vs sunderland at home on sunday than i was about the bobcats losing to utah at home on saturday.

the twolves game was by far the most entertaining bobcats game for me this season. i would have been disappointed if they lost i guess, but either way, win or lose, i really enjoyed it. right now my eyeballs tell me the bobcats are not a playoff level team, so i'm not gonna stress over losses.

that being said, i will never root for the bobcats to lose on purpose by not playing hard, but i will support playing the young players more and the vets less as the season goes on if it appears we are not a playoff team. thats just common sense.

[fatlever]

the blazers were arrogant and were looking too far into the future. they should have consolidated their young talent 2-3 years ago and made a run at an established superstar, similar to what boston did to get garnett and allen.

simmons made a great point last night... okc is following the portland model and perhaps this summer they should have called the hornets and offered the hornets anyone on their roster except durant for chris paul. i have to think the hornets would have jumped on a westbrook deal around the time that paul was looking unlikely to stay. and has good as westbrook has been, he still aint chris paul. durant and paul would have been insane.

[moevil]

LOL

Just dig up one box score from 06-07 season

http://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=270408014

20 Steals? 8 3 pointers? I understand what fat means

[GQCoolest]

Can't root against my team.

Sean May over Danny Granger

Augustin over Brook (I like D.J., but Brook was the pick there)

Ajinca over Ibaka

Adam Morrison over *

There are good players out there, you just have to draft them. The Cats' draft strategy has been piss poor, and the best use of a first rounder they ever had was 2007 (B. Wright trade for Richardson-->Diaw/Raja-->Diaw/Jack was quite the useful series of moves).

Cannot bring myself to root for Crash to fail, ever.

[DY_nasty]

Yeah, because Kobe Bryant was a top 10 pick as well..

Kobe was a top pick on everyone's board. The only reason he went so late was because he made it clear that he only wanted to play for the Lakers and no team was going to take a high school kid who didn't want to actually play for them. If he were open throughout the process, he never would've fell that far.

The more you know!

[dmutombo321]

You'd be singing differently if we were 8/2 instead of what we are now.

A 3/15 start probably would open his eyes. It would mean we had a horrible team, and needed to rebuild. But we don't have a horrible team.

This is precisely the problem I was emphasizing. We don’t have a horrible team – we have a horribly mediocre team. We aren’t bad enough to be a 3-15 team but we sure as hell aren’t an 8-2 team either. The way they’ve started the season though, 3-15 was a remote possibility. 8-2 never was.

You do realize that we've traded away loads of picks right? We didn't even get to draft in the second round last year. This year will be better but not by much.

I’m well aware they’ve traded loads of picks. That 2012 protected first rounder spent to get Tyrus Thomas is out of sight out of mind right now but may look awfully regretful when it loses its protection and we have to potentially fork over a lottery selection in 2013, 2014 or beyond.

We will have a first round pick this year but if the present team is kept intact, it will be in the 12-16 range as I’ve previously stated. You can take that to the bank.

Rajon Rondo wasn't a top 5 pick. Assuming that will work is stupid. Sure it's more likely to work but there are no guarantees in the draft.

Yeah, because Kobe Bryant was a top 10 pick as well

Yes, because no one in the 12-16 range has ever won championships ever!

Crunk, you just made my point for me. I don’t think I need to explain to you guys that statistically, you are exponentially more likely to draft a franchise caliber player in the top 5 than in the 12-16 and up range.

Obviously there are extreme exceptions: Kobe, Rondo etc. Hell, Ben Wallace and Brad Miller were allstars who where never drafted at all.

But it’s the height of sophistic silliness to imply that the 21st pick is just as likely to yield a franchise caliber player as a top 5 selection on a given year since Rajon Rondo was selected 21st once upon a time

Having your team max out its potential and make the best selections possible regardless of your pick ALA Spurs... is the best route to take IMO because there is ALWAYS atleast one player that falls through the cracks.

The Spurs have one player to thank for every Championship they’ve won and all of their success during the past decade – Tim Duncan who happened to be the 1st overall pick. Had the Spurs not won only 20 games the season before he was drafted, they would have lacked the lottery balls necessary to have a legitimate shot at TD.

David Robinson got hurt that season and instead of panicking and making band aid trades to stay moderately competitive, their front office did what was necessary for the greater good of the franchise. They saw a strong draft class coming so they played their young guys heavy minutes, sucked mightily but won the opportunity to draft one of the greatest big men to ever play the game. They won over 50 games the following season.

Exactly! That's why LeBron is still in cleveland, and Melo will be staying in Denver, and Bosh will be chillin in Toronto! Hooray draft! Oh, and I hear Chris Paul might be going to NY anyway.

We all recognize that franchise players drafted into small markets don’t always stay there. But the undeniable fact still remains that they never would have played in those cities at all had they not been drafted there because they never would have had any shot at signing them. Had Andrew Bogut been drafted by the Lakers, do you honestly think that when his rookie contact ended he would have given any consideration to leaving to go sign with Milwaukee of all places?

i will never root for the bobcats to lose on purpose by not playing hard, but i will support playing the young players more and the vets less as the season goes on if it appears we are not a playoff team. thats just common sense.

This is more or less my sentiment. While I want them to lose games this season to come to terms with the need to rebuild, I’m not advocating that they tank by encouraging players to half-ass it or throw games. Rather trade our older players who still have value and give the young guys valuable minutes to learn via trial and error. They’ll gain experience and games will be lost in the process.

[doc.end]

Can't root against my team.

Sean May over Danny Granger

Augustin over Brook (I like D.J., but Brook was the pick there)

Ajinca over Ibaka

Adam Morrison over *

There are good players out there, you just have to draft them. The Cats' draft strategy has been piss poor, and the best use of a first rounder they ever had was 2007 (B. Wright trade for Richardson-->Diaw/Raja-->Diaw/Jack was quite the useful series of moves).

Cannot bring myself to root for Crash to fail, ever.

To be fair how many people on this board except me wanted Ibaka over Ajinça?

[DY_nasty]

I think it needs to be reiterated that our drafting hasn't been nearly as atrocious as some make it out to be.

Excluding Henderson (for obvious reasons), we've only had 1 first round pick thats been an immediate, undeniable failure. The rest have been relatively solid in their rookie seasons and shown significant promise - its after that where the problem sets in. The Bobcats are arguably the worst in the league when it comes to handling and developing young players.

Being paranoid about the draft is understandable, but just realize that being afraid of building through the draft because of past experiences is equivalent to being afraid of food because you got the runs once.

[JDuaneWayne]

Speaking of developing young talent. Since Derrick Brown was a 2nd round pick do we simply have to extend him a QO next season and have the option to match any contract offered? I've scoured the internet looking for what if any rights we hold on him after this season.

[BigSlam]

What a sad excuse for a thread.

[dmutombo321]

Speaking of developing young talent. Since Derrick Brown was a 2nd round pick do we simply have to extend him a QO next season and have the option to match any contract offered? I've scoured the internet looking for what if any rights we hold on him after this season.

I might be mistaken but its always been my understanding that the QO's apply to first round picks only. I think Brown becomes an unrestricted free agent.

[SJAXnCRASH]

rebuilding through the draft is overrated. best case scenario is being Cleveland and being devastated when the golden boy leaves to play his prime with a different team

[misterglover]

Ok im confused..... if you actually cheer against the Bobcats every game how does that make you a Bobcats fan??? Im gonna need someone to explain that one to me!

The Bobcats are my team, and I cheer for them to win if they are 82-0 or 0-82, there are 30 teams in the NBA and at the end of the year 16 will make the playoffs and only 1 will win the championship. If my team cant be the 1, I'd rather be part of the 16!! Probably more than half of these teams that are "built for the future" will never win anything. Draft picks are a crap shot, every year some fans swear out that some 20-21 yr old kid is the reason they are gonna be good in the future, yet if you really look at the NBA landscape the same guys have been hovering around the top for years... Plus theres not guarantee Im gonna be around in the future to see it!!....

The NBA is probably the hardest league to win a championship in because the true stars, not the flash in the pans but the true stars usually keep their teams in atleast contention for awhile(think Jordan, Kobe, Duncan, Lebron and players like that) and those guys dont come around so easy, also it has always been that a team basically has to grow up or get over the hump before they are a real contender (think Bulls finally getting past Pistons), unlike the NFL, no NBA team has ever jumped into the playoffs and seriously competed for a championship and its not gonna happen as long as there is best of seven series with days off between games, 95% of the time the most talented team is gonna win, the NBA isnt setup for upsets.

Bottom line is this, I dont like everything the Bobcats do, I hate Stephen Jackson & I hated that trade, hated the selection of Adam Morrison but I am a Bobcats fan and I cheer for them to win every game because thats what a fan does......

[DY_nasty]

rebuilding through the draft is overrated. best case scenario is being Cleveland and being devastated when the golden boy leaves to play his prime with a different team

Its funny how people always point to disaster/super rare scenarios when they try to disprove the drafting thing...

[Eoghan]

Can't root against my team.

Sean May over Danny Granger

Augustin over Brook (I like D.J., but Brook was the pick there)

Ajinca over Ibaka

Adam Morrison over *

There are good players out there, you just have to draft them. The Cats' draft strategy has been piss poor, and the best use of a first rounder they ever had was 2007 (B. Wright trade for Richardson-->Diaw/Raja-->Diaw/Jack was quite the useful series of moves).

Cannot bring myself to root for Crash to fail, ever.

To be fair how many people on this board except me wanted Ibaka over Ajinça?

Me. I said we should draft Batum 1st rd and Ibaka 2nd round the year before Ibaka was drafted. I was ignored I believe. I'd find the post but the site is malfunctioning on me.

[Marvel]

To be fair how many people on this board except me wanted Ibaka over Ajinça?

I never wanted Ajinca, at the time i was going nuts knowing LB had a hard on for him and that he would be our guy at 20. Watching his(Ibaka) highlights from his time in the Spanish 2nd division i had him going 10-15,however i was gutted to the core when i heard Ajinca's name being called out at 20.
F**K LB and his mancrushes.

[Walt Cronkite]

Me. I said we should draft Batum 1st rd and Ibaka 2nd round the year before Ibaka was drafted. I was ignored I believe. I'd find the post but the site is malfunctioning on me.

Not on realGM... unless you're some pbp.

Join date: May 20 2009.
2008 NBA draft: June 26 2008.

Props for believing in Ibaka can only go to Doc, as far as I'm concerned. He started writing in for him at pick like, 7 or something.