RealGM

General. but most noticeably in trade value.

http://asubstituteforwar.com/2011/07/12 ... e-bobcats/

I think he's underestimating Kemba, DJ, Tyrus, and especially Biyombo.

well, I can't disagree with him

Fred Williamson wrote:well, I can't disagree with him

Do Diop and Najera and Carroll expire the year after next? I wonder if he'd like us next year.

in all honesty, its a very well written article. we can argue whether or not we are last or close to last, but at least this guy did his homework. i really cant argue with anything he says in the article. i think the one thing that might be overlooked is our abundant cap space in 2012/13.

Am I the only one hoping Henderson doesn't get paid a lot?

captaincrunk wrote:Am I the only one hoping Henderson doesn't get paid a lot?

Ideally I would like to draft Barnes this summer and trade Gerald for Austin. That would make for an awesome team going forward.

Kemba, DJ
Austin, freeagent
Barnes, Cunningham
Tyrus, White
Bismack, Kwame

As far as the article goes people are always low rating this team. Fats. do you remember that clown that kept coming on this board year one saying that we were going to break the leagues fewest win record?

We are last if he's correct about Kemba and Bismack. Although I am a HUGE fan of Walker and wanted him drafted here, the jury is still out on him until he learns how to play the point guard position in the NBA. Same with Bismack who has never faced any serious competition yet.

Right now on face value with his criteria we do look like sh*t but as everyone knows we only need that one player who can help elevate a franchise to much better things. Maybe it will be Kemba, maybe Bismack or maybe it will be our #1 pick next June. Who knows, but at least we're clearing out the players who don't have a future here and committed to a complete rebuild. That is step one in trying to turn things around. I'm happy, I think most fans are happy and we all understand we needed to make these tough decisions now in order to have a chance to be great in the future. Also it was a great move bringing in an outsider Cho to help make decisions about our team going forward.

Even if we don't win many games this season at least we finally have a bunch of young talent to follow. Thats much better than being a middle of the road capped out for years veteran team.

We are going to be pretty bad but I don't know about worst.

DJQuick wrote:

captaincrunk wrote:Am I the only one hoping Henderson doesn't get paid a lot?

Ideally I would like to draft Barnes this summer and trade Gerald for Austin. That would make for an awesome team going forward.

Kemba, DJ
Austin, freeagent
Barnes, Cunningham
Tyrus, White
Bismack, Kwame

As far as the article goes people are always low rating this team. Fats. do you remember that clown that kept coming on this board year one saying that we were going to break the leagues fewest win record?

Austin Rivers? I don't think that would be a great idea.

With DJ (and to a lesser extent Kemba), you can have the luxury of a shooting guard who doesn't shoot the three as long as the SF of the future can (Hello Quincy Miller!).

Detroit is in a far worse position, IMO. Also teams like Milwaukee, Indiana, LA Clippers, etc. who have absolutely no shot to advance in the playoffs (or even make them) and also have no shot to attract or draft a star.

amcoolio wrote:Detroit is in a far worse position, IMO. Also teams like Milwaukee, Indiana, LA Clippers, etc. who have absolutely no shot to advance in the playoffs (or even make them) and also have no shot to attract or draft a star.

Who will we attract?

Though in all honesty, Most basketball players have homes not only where they play (Boston for example) but also where they feel like living (L.A. for example, if you're Paul Pierce and Kevin Garnett).

captaincrunk wrote:

amcoolio wrote:Detroit is in a far worse position, IMO. Also teams like Milwaukee, Indiana, LA Clippers, etc. who have absolutely no shot to advance in the playoffs (or even make them) and also have no shot to attract or draft a star.

Who will we attract?

Though in all honesty, Most basketball players have homes not only where they play (Boston for example) but also where they feel like living (L.A. for example, if you're Paul Pierce and Kevin Garnett).

Unfortunately Crunk, I have to agree. Even when the Charlotte Hornets were one of the most popular teams in the nba we attracted few major free agents. Trades and the draft are likely going to have to be our focus.

I agree with many of the things he says, and pre-deadline we probably were right about #30... but definitely not now. We've got a crap load of cap space coming off in the next year or two and are projected to suck so bad this year that we're likely getting a top 5 pick in the best draft class since 2003. I'm happy with the direction and understand we'll have to be patient. I'd take our position over the lottery purgatory teams any day (which is what we've been). Look at the Warriors... they've basically been there for a decade. F that, I'll take our spot over that nonsense any day.

Yeah Rich. You said it. Our team is only seven years old, but has made the playoffs within the last two years. There are teams that have not made the playoffs in four years or more.

The question isn't whether we had success relative to our franchise age, or what our potential looks like... it's what our trade value as a team is. Cap space does not count for that, and as he notes our most valuable asset is next year's draft pick because he thinks we're going to be bad.

Also, the Clippers are in a worse place than us? Griffin alone is worth more than our whole roster.

We da worse, mayne... we deeeed it.

Walt Cronkite wrote:We da worse, mayne... we deeeed it.

...

amcoolio wrote:Detroit is in a far worse position, IMO. Also teams like Milwaukee, Indiana, LA Clippers, etc. who have absolutely no shot to advance in the playoffs (or even make them) and also have no shot to attract or draft a star.

How can you say teams like Indiana and the Clippers have absolutely no shot to advance or make the playoffs or attract a star, yet charlotte does?

The Clippers have a guy that legitimately has a chance to be a top 10 or so player in the NBA in Blake Griffin, a top shooting guard prospect/ already borderline all-star player and young to boot in Eric Gordon. Tons of youth oozing with talent between Aminu, Deandre jordan, and eric bledsoe, and even guys like mo williams who would contend for the title of the cats' best player. If not for their inept management they would probably be up with OKC as brightest future in the NBA, plus that little thing called the LA market.

The Pacers are also very young, and made the playoffs starting a rookie player, two second year players and a third year player. Hibbert has alot of potential, and has shown flashes of ability to be an elite center before long, george also has a ton of potential, especially on defense. Their record last year was deceptive, as they were much improved under (now no longer interim) coach frank vogel. They also recently acquired one of teh best sixth men in the league in george hill. Hill, Collison, Hibbert, George, Hansbrough, Mcroberts, Rush and stephenson are all below 25 years old and have room to greatly improve. Danny Granger is similar in level to what wallace was and is very, very solid. Add to this the fact that they have the second most cap room in the entire NBA at a time when capspace may well become even more valuable after a new CBA... and it's not hard to see why the pacers are seen as having one of the brightest futures, and yes, have the opportunity to advance in the playoffs in the future.. Even if they sign just a guy like nene they still have more room to round out what is already a playoff roster that gave the the leagues top regular season team a ton of trouble in the playoffs. They are deep and flexible and talented, there is a reason most credible lists of future power rankings have them top ten, like ESPN does (ranked 7th). The pacers are nothing like Milwaukee or Charlotte were in the years when they made the playoffs. Milwaukee and the cats' were both veteran squads without the cap flexibility or upside that the pacers have. The pacers aren't relying on guys like tim thomas, boris diaw and the like to do much heavy lifting. Being a lower playoff seed is a GOOD thing when you have tons of upside and cap space, i'd agree about the pacers had they made the playoffs when their core was troy murphy, granger, and mike dunleavey, but that isn't today's pacers, and they are in a much better spot than charlotte for the forseeable future, and will probably be top 8ish or so on this list when it gets that far as well. They could screw the pooch and waste cap space, some players could just not improve inexplicably, but from a financial perspective, and talent perspective, the pacers are in a very good spot moving forward, and after the hell of our "soft rebuild" post JO, Artest, Jackson etc.... it feels good to finally say.

daschysta wrote:

amcoolio wrote:Detroit is in a far worse position, IMO. Also teams like Milwaukee, Indiana, LA Clippers, etc. who have absolutely no shot to advance in the playoffs (or even make them) and also have no shot to attract or draft a star.

How can you say teams like Indiana and the Clippers have absolutely no shot to advance or make the playoffs or attract a star, yet charlotte does?

The Clippers have a guy that legitimately has a chance to be a top 10 or so player in the NBA in Blake Griffin, a top shooting guard prospect/ already borderline all-star player and young to boot in Eric Gordon. Tons of youth oozing with talent between Aminu, Deandre jordan, and eric bledsoe, and even guys like mo williams who would contend for the title of the cats' best player. If not for their inept management they would probably be up with OKC as brightest future in the NBA, plus that little thing called the LA market.

The Pacers are also very young, and made the playoffs starting a rookie player, two second year players and a third year player. Hibbert has alot of potential, and has shown flashes of ability to be an elite center before long, george also has a ton of potential, especially on defense. Their record last year was deceptive, as they were much improved under (now no longer interim) coach frank vogel. They also recently acquired one of teh best sixth men in the league in george hill. Hill, Collison, Hibbert, George, Hansbrough, Mcroberts, Rush and stephenson are all below 25 years old and have room to greatly improve. Danny Granger is similar in level to what wallace was and is very, very solid. Add to this the fact that they have the second most cap room in the entire NBA at a time when capspace may well become even more valuable after a new CBA... and it's not hard to see why the pacers are seen as having one of the brightest futures, and yes, have the opportunity to advance in the playoffs in the future.. Even if they sign just a guy like nene they still have more room to round out what is already a playoff roster that gave the the leagues top regular season team a ton of trouble in the playoffs. They are deep and flexible and talented, there is a reason most credible lists of future power rankings have them top ten, like ESPN does (ranked 7th). The pacers are nothing like Milwaukee or Charlotte were in the years when they made the playoffs. Milwaukee and the cats' were both veteran squads without the cap flexibility or upside that the pacers have. The pacers aren't relying on guys like tim thomas, boris diaw and the like to do much heavy lifting. Being a lower playoff seed is a GOOD thing when you have tons of upside and cap space, i'd agree about the pacers had they made the playoffs when their core was troy murphy, granger, and mike dunleavey, but that isn't today's pacers, and they are in a much better spot than charlotte for the forseeable future, and will probably be top 8ish or so on this list when it gets that far as well. They could screw the pooch and waste cap space, some players could just not improve inexplicably, but from a financial perspective, and talent perspective, the pacers are in a very good spot moving forward, and after the hell of our "soft rebuild" post JO, Artest, Jackson etc.... it feels good to finally say.

The pacers at best will become the Atlanta Hawks, a perennial 2nd round punching bag, if your happy for that, then more power to you, Charlotte however has the chance to draft a franchise player in the deepest draft since '03, and already has 1 A prospect(Biyombo) 3 B's(Gerald Henderson, Kemba Walker, Tyrus Thomas) and 1 C' prospects( DJ Augustin) - probably not apart of our long term future. Pacers have a whole bunch of B-C range prospects, and have virtually no chance to land a A+ prospect through draft position in the near future because they'll be too good for a high pick

Stun704 wrote:

daschysta wrote:

amcoolio wrote:Detroit is in a far worse position, IMO. Also teams like Milwaukee, Indiana, LA Clippers, etc. who have absolutely no shot to advance in the playoffs (or even make them) and also have no shot to attract or draft a star.

How can you say teams like Indiana and the Clippers have absolutely no shot to advance or make the playoffs or attract a star, yet charlotte does?

The Clippers have a guy that legitimately has a chance to be a top 10 or so player in the NBA in Blake Griffin, a top shooting guard prospect/ already borderline all-star player and young to boot in Eric Gordon. Tons of youth oozing with talent between Aminu, Deandre jordan, and eric bledsoe, and even guys like mo williams who would contend for the title of the cats' best player. If not for their inept management they would probably be up with OKC as brightest future in the NBA, plus that little thing called the LA market.

The Pacers are also very young, and made the playoffs starting a rookie player, two second year players and a third year player. Hibbert has alot of potential, and has shown flashes of ability to be an elite center before long, george also has a ton of potential, especially on defense. Their record last year was deceptive, as they were much improved under (now no longer interim) coach frank vogel. They also recently acquired one of teh best sixth men in the league in george hill. Hill, Collison, Hibbert, George, Hansbrough, Mcroberts, Rush and stephenson are all below 25 years old and have room to greatly improve. Danny Granger is similar in level to what wallace was and is very, very solid. Add to this the fact that they have the second most cap room in the entire NBA at a time when capspace may well become even more valuable after a new CBA... and it's not hard to see why the pacers are seen as having one of the brightest futures, and yes, have the opportunity to advance in the playoffs in the future.. Even if they sign just a guy like nene they still have more room to round out what is already a playoff roster that gave the the leagues top regular season team a ton of trouble in the playoffs. They are deep and flexible and talented, there is a reason most credible lists of future power rankings have them top ten, like ESPN does (ranked 7th). The pacers are nothing like Milwaukee or Charlotte were in the years when they made the playoffs. Milwaukee and the cats' were both veteran squads without the cap flexibility or upside that the pacers have. The pacers aren't relying on guys like tim thomas, boris diaw and the like to do much heavy lifting. Being a lower playoff seed is a GOOD thing when you have tons of upside and cap space, i'd agree about the pacers had they made the playoffs when their core was troy murphy, granger, and mike dunleavey, but that isn't today's pacers, and they are in a much better spot than charlotte for the forseeable future, and will probably be top 8ish or so on this list when it gets that far as well. They could screw the pooch and waste cap space, some players could just not improve inexplicably, but from a financial perspective, and talent perspective, the pacers are in a very good spot moving forward, and after the hell of our "soft rebuild" post JO, Artest, Jackson etc.... it feels good to finally say.

The pacers at best will become the Atlanta Hawks, a perennial 2nd round punching bag, if your happy for that, then more power to you, Charlotte however has the chance to draft a franchise player in the deepest draft since '03, and already has 1 A prospect(Biyombo) 3 B's(Gerald Henderson, Kemba Walker, Tyrus Thomas) and 1 C' prospects( DJ Augustin) - probably not apart of our long term future. Pacers have a whole bunch of B-C range prospects, and have virtually no chance to land a A+ prospect through draft position in the near future because they'll be too good for a high pick

Hey, I love your new choice in GM, he's a smart guy who knows how to build a team, and you guys will have a chance to draft a difference maker. You guys needed to rebuild, and didn't wait too long to do it, personally I would have been happy bottoming out during the dunleavy era, but I think we've got enough flexibility and talent to be a bit better than you give us credit for. I believe we can become better than a second round punching bag, but even so my point stands that the pacers will be capable of advancing further than they currently have.

I think you give a bit less credit to some of our young players than maybe they deserve. I don't see how Biyombo is an A level prospect while Paul George isn't, most experts have conceded that Paul George has always had all-star potential, and he already shows flashes of being an elite perimeter defender at 3 positions, and played lock down D on the league MVP in the playoffs who happens to be quite quick himself. A multitude of knowledeable people believe george to have star potential, and i'm one of them. Biyombo has all kinds of defensive potential, but will he be able to overcome how raw he is offensively and not be a offensive liability? Both george and biyombo have incredible tools, but George has shown potential both offensively and defensively, if you're going to label Biyombo and "A level prospect" then so is Paul George, who is typically slotted as a top 5 pick in most redrafts in a year much stronger than Biyombo's. Pacers fans feel that we got the value of a top pick at number 11, similar to when we got Danny Granger at number 17.

I like Henderson alot, he's tough and plays good defense and has a great work ethic, he'll be an above average starter, but i'd have to Rank Roy Hibbert above him as a prospect. Roy is still developing, but he's shown extended periods of play where he's looked like a top center in the NBA, losing so much weight hurt him in teh long run last year, since as he lost more weight as teh season went on it became difficult for him to keep post position, but he was a top runner for MIP early, and hibbert is currently back to 275, all of it muscle, good luck pushing THAT around in the post. Roy Hibbert could easily be a 16/17-9/10 center next year with 3 assists and 2 blocks, which in this league of watered down big men qualifies as elite. Given the uniqueness of roy's skillset i'd say he's every bit as valuable a prospect as henderson, and probably more so. He's more "a-ish" himself as a center. Big men do take longer to develop after all.

Walker and Collison are pretty similar as prospects. I happen to like Walkers game a bit more, but i'm not sure his rookie season is as good as collison's was in New Orleans, though it might be. If collison can return to that form after a bit of a sophomore slump he'll be great, JOB's offense kills point guards after all, his job was literally to pass the ball with 22 seconds left on the shot clock and play off the ball, which is death for a pick and roll point guard like collison. I'd agree that they are both "b-level prospects", meaning both can be above average starters, possibly very good starters if everything goes right.

Problem with Augustin is that he's redundant with walker on the team, and that half decent point guards (like augustin is) aren't really valuable at all as trade chips since good point guards are the most abundant commodity in the NBA today. Seemingly every team has a decent youngish starting point guard or are set with a very good vet.

Hansbrough would have to qualify as a B-level prospect too by your metric. The guy DID average 15 and 7 post all-star break, once he got a chance to start in what was basically his rookie season. Even if he just slightly improves he projects to be a pretty decent starter, or dynamite bench player. You're stretching it listing Tyrus Thomas as a "prospect" 5 years into his NBA career. He's shown flashes of course, and is hyper athletic, but i'm not sure I exactly expect him to just "get it" one day and become the player his raw athletic ability suggests he can be. He's much more stromile swift at this time than anything more 5 years into the league.

Stephenson also has loads of skill, but i'm not counting on him, I wouldn't mention him if larry bird wasn't constantly prasing him (even calling him the best player on the team a few times) and he is a guy that gets to see him every day in practice.

George hill then once again by your metric is also a B-level prospect. He's only been in the league 3 years, and has constantly had to defer to san antonio's future hall of famers. When he's been called on to start he's averaged about 16 ppg throughout his career, and he's been san antonio's best wing defender ever since bowen retired. Poppovich has gone on record stating that the kid can do alot more offensively in addition to his defense, and he'll have that chance in indiana, without any sacred vets to defer to. His experience as a key piece of a perrenially contending team will be very valuable to indy as well as his nearly elite perimeter D.

Granger himself is about a B+/ A- minus player, and as a shooter will benefit from some of the heat being taken off of him offensively.

On top of this the Pacers have basically the best cap situation in the entire NBA, and if the lockout takes away the season will be in the running for not only the coveted 2012 players but also the crop from this year, whose price will be run down by having to compete with the marquee 2012 class. I know for a fact Eric Gordon has expressed interest in playing for the pacers eventually, kid loves his hometown, and he'd take a hard look at us when he's a free agent if we still have our space, and we have an excellent supporting cast set up, and if the new CBA makes it hard for some of the bigger markets to have their bloated payroll, some big name players will have to start taking a look at places like Indiana, and yes, Charlotte even.

Based on your scale of Biyombo qualifying for "A" level prospect i'd rank the teams prospects

A level prospects
Biyombo
Paul George, Roy Hibbert

B level prospects
Walker, Henderson, Stun (Thomas)
Collison, Hansbrough, George Hill,

Wildcards
Stephenson

Despite already having Danny Granger the pacers still have enough cap space to sign a max level player AND sign their youth to contracts when the time comes. Say we sign Eric Gordon, and George ends up around grangers level.

Collison/ Stephenson/ hill
Gordon/ Hill
Paul George/ D. Jones
(Trade Granger and draft picks for a dynamite power forward)/ Hansbrough
Hibbert/ Foster

Is a team that I think could make some noise, maybe we won't win a ship (but that's why we play the games) but we'd be a dark horse that is both deep and talented, and we'd also be young enough that some of today's super teams would be riding off into the sunset by the time our team is reaching it's collective prime.

OR we could simply sign a PF of about grangers or so caliber with our cap space and run with a team next year of

Collison/ Stephenson/ Hill
George/ Hill/ Rush
Granger/ Dahntay Jones
Nene or D. West/ Hansbrough
Hibbert/ Foster

Is a lineup that I believe could win 50 games next year and between Collison, hill, George and Hibbert still has all kinds of upside, meaning that we'd be competing for home court advantage. We played chicago about as close as possible this year, despite our inexperience and inferior roster I'll take my chances with either roster moving forward, and I don't think that that's a bad place to be at all. You don't NEED that super duper mega star to win in the playoffs, my pacers teams proved that in the 90's and early 2000's when we were consistantly elite without one, and teams like the pistons continued to show it after those teams fell apart. We didn't have a superstar on those reggie teams, just a deep talented team that played well together, and they took us to eastern royalty, nearly knocked off chicago a few times and got us to the finals. That's the kind of team we're building, and I believe that we can eventually be better than the current incarnation of the hawks, and i'm happy with a punchers chance... we'll see what the new CBA does about parity, but currently a punchers chance is about all most small market teams get in the NBA.

Of course this monolithic post is mostly due to boredom of no real news, and the intention wasn't to troll. Personally I wouldn't rank the 'cats last in future value, and wish you all luck in that you aren't one of those teams that don't manage to get out of the hole you dig when bottoming out for a long time. You just have to understand that it's hard to rank them highly when all real upside for them is projective, dependent on silas allowing them to play badly enough to actually get a top 5 pick, instead of a 10 or 11ish, dependent on them actually drafting well once they get those picks (their picks this year were good, but historically there have been some head scratchers), dependent on them not spending their cash on bad contracts (like tyrus thomas's) if their first options don't sign with them. Where you are now is certainly better than where you were (and 8th seeded or so team, with little youth and aging top players) that's about where we were early in JOB's tenure and it sucked. Being an 8th seed when you already have tons of youth with upside and enough cap space to attract major talent though? (where the pacers are right now) is very different from where charlotte was during the wallace era, or the bucks last year. I do believe we have a very good shot to build a very good team and our chances of attracting a star are no worse than charlottes, we have a great supporting cast set up right now a superstar could win big on that roster.