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I blame Cliff (final rant)

Posted: Tue Mar 4, 2014 3:17 pm
by ball teacher
Ok fellas, I have a few issues with this team, they are some of the same issues I've mentioned before, so I promise to do my best to make this my final rant over these topics, if the mods wanna lock this up, I'll understand.

1. Cliff is too stubborn and isn't coaching up the players we have, he's coaching a system and I believe that is hurting us. What do I mean? Cliff was a assistant coach in Orlando to Stan Van, they had a philosophy that I hated where they had one big, Dwight, and 4 perimeter shooters. This is what Cliff is pushing on Charlotte, the problem is we don't have the perimeter shooters Orlando had, so what gives? The system or the players? Cliff wants Zeller to be a perimeter big, has no use for MKG cause he's no Rashard Lewis, and Biz wont ever be paired with Jefferson who is not a rim protector so we're actually sacrificing our defense for offensive spacing.

2. MKG is being held back. This is the story of the season to me. The 2nd overall pick last year is relegated to being a role playing defensive player. Why? MKG has game, Hendo said MKG needs to develop a skill. This coming from a guy who 's only offensive is a mediocre 2 step pull up. MKG is NOT just a defensive player, but Cliff wants shooters, MKG is not that, so because the 2nd overall pick isn't a pure jump shooter he has to suffer? he can be used in cuts to the rim, post ups, getting the rock around the elbows, or the free throw region where he can work. This is the coaches job to be creative and make it work, we owe it to our young 2nd overall pick to make him better, and we owe it to the fans to develop our picks, not muzzle and relegate them to scrub roles.

3. Biz. Another young pick that I don't think weve been very creative with. Cliff wont consider playing him at the 4 cause he's not skilled like the perimeter oriented bigs Cliff helped foster into the league in Orlando. This is why we like Mcbob, cause he's a big who can shoot the long ball. Cliff will never play Biz with Jefferson for this reason, and that's showing a lack of willingness to adapt. Jefferson needs a rim protector with him someone to help him rebound, but if we bring in Biz to play with Jefferson, we lose the "spacing" Cliff needs to make this Van Gundy style work, so again, if we don't have the guys to make Van Gundy ball work, shouldn't we just change the style to fit the players we do have?

4. Zeller, this is the same story for me. We drafted this guy with the 4th pick, and we are trying to make him something he isn't. He has the ability, size, and athleticism to have a long productive career. What I think we're doing is not this guys strong point. We are teaching this big, to play even more finesse than he already is. I'd have him backup Jefferson at center, and have Mcbob play more PF with Zeller. Zeller is 7ft tall, why the heck is he a perimeter oriented big. He should be told to hit the weight room with Charles Oakley or Ewing, and he and Biz should be taught grown man basketball by the ex Knick center. I guess Cliff wants Zeller to be a Hedo Turkoglu or Rashard Lewis type big.


5. Kemba. Kemba is a small point guard, so a lot of factors are against him. But he has two weapons working for him, he's got blazing quickness, and he is a scorer. Kemba said many times hes a true PG, his most loyal supporters here say he's a true PG and always has been. I'll say that a player with his quickness should be able to get players easy shots. We shouldn't have to run a pick and roll offense that caters to him as a scorer and where the bulk of the playmaking duties are left to our PF. Kemba has to do better as a floor leader. I don't want to see Kemba taking 15 plus shots, I want to see 7 plus assists every night, it should be easy with a big like Jefferson who's just dominating on a nightly basis. Kemba needs to be a pass first guard, if we need buckets then he should go for his cause when he gets hot and gets HOT.

Another thing we have to know about Kemba, is that this season he's been good for a few weeks, then bad for a few weeks, then good for a few, and then bad for a few. That has to change, he has to be a facilitator first, too many times if he isn't scoring he's not doing much,and it's even apparent with his body language. He needs to leave his mark on these games in a positive way if hes gonna be a premiere PG in this league.

Re: I blame Cliff (final rant)

Posted: Tue Mar 4, 2014 3:21 pm
by ball teacher
After seeing Lebron drop 60 on us, it became more apparent that Jefferson needs a rim protector beside him to help him. We are one of two teams to have one player put 60 on us in the same season. This isn't all MKG, it's the team defense and rim protection that can be improved. This is why I think Biz needs to play more with Jefferson even if he isn't the play making perimeter oriented big that Cliff likes.

Re: I blame Cliff (final rant)

Posted: Tue Mar 4, 2014 3:38 pm
by mrknowitall215
Clifford has been great for Charlotte albeit being too conventional and lacking flexibility within adjustments. I wouldn't blame him but so much

Re: I blame Cliff (final rant)

Posted: Tue Mar 4, 2014 3:39 pm
by Marino
Too long didn't read. I don't blame Clifford much at all and feel he has been a terrific coach.

Re: I blame Cliff (final rant)

Posted: Tue Mar 4, 2014 3:51 pm
by yosemiteben
This franchise needs stability and Clifford is going to provide that. Clifford is starting with the basics. He has already said he has a more sophisticated defensive scheme that he wants to implement but he didn't think our players were ready and he wanted to wait until this off season. The guy knows what he is doing.

I think his conservatism and rigidity is much needed for a team that has dealt with constantly shifting roles and philosophies.

Re: I blame Cliff (final rant)

Posted: Tue Mar 4, 2014 4:18 pm
by MasterIchiro
Biz and MKG on the floor at the same time? I don't see 3 on 5 working.

Re: I blame Cliff (final rant)

Posted: Tue Mar 4, 2014 4:25 pm
by Amateur Wannabe
He's turned league's laugh into a playoffs team. Enough for me. Cats' young players are underdeveloped (even Kemba) and they need much time to improve. It's kinda miraculous to fight for a decent playoff seed with Josh McRoberts and Anthony Tolliver being important pieces of your team.
I hope managment offers him multi-year contract.

Re: I blame Cliff (final rant)

Posted: Tue Mar 4, 2014 4:46 pm
by ball teacher
You guys are giving Cliff all the credit, what about the fact that we now have a all star big man who's dominating for us? What about the fact that last year we weren't really trying to make the playoffs and we were losing to get a high draft pick? Cliff isn't terrible,but he isn't the savior you guys are making him to be, and imo, he's making mistakes. We have a team with talent and any coach with a little basketball sense could make use of these guys especially in the weaker eastern conference.

Re: I blame Cliff (final rant)

Posted: Tue Mar 4, 2014 4:48 pm
by yosemiteben
We brought in a player that everyone (even our own fans) believed was a terrible defender, and went from literally the worst defensive team in the NBA to a fringe top 5 defense. That is 100% on Clifford.

Re: I blame Cliff (final rant)

Posted: Tue Mar 4, 2014 5:14 pm
by mrknowitall215
ball teacher wrote:You guys are giving Cliff all the credit, what about the fact that we now have a all star big man who's dominating for us? What about the fact that last year we weren't really trying to make the playoffs and we were losing to get a high draft pick? Cliff isn't terrible,but he isn't the savior you guys are making him to be, and imo, he's making mistakes. We have a team with talent and any coach with a little basketball sense could make use of these guys especially in the weaker eastern conference.


Of course Clifford is making mistakes, he's human after all, and of course he doesn't deserve 100% of the credit for how well Charlotte is playing, but what coach ever deserves all of the credit when it's the players that play, but he's done a excellent job of instilling a structure & model that this team can build on, all the while staying competitive on a nightly basis. The Bobcats went from historically the worst defense the past two seasons into a top-10 defense this season, therefore I would consider Clifford somewhat of a savior

Re: I blame Cliff (final rant)

Posted: Tue Mar 4, 2014 5:27 pm
by Eoghan
yosemiteben wrote:We brought in a player that everyone (even our own fans) believed was a terrible defender, and went from literally the worst defensive team in the NBA to a fringe top 5 defense. That is 100% on Clifford.

Nah, that is 100% on the players. You can do all the coaching you want, it's up to the players to go out on the floor and execute.

I agree with OP on every point but Zeller. We have a young, potentially elite defensive team that should run and gun but we can't. Big Al has the green light but everyone else has boots on their cars.

I disagree on Zeller b/c I don't think he'll ever be strong enough to play as an NBA post man. This guy was getting thrown to the floor by college SFs a year ago, it just isn't in him. If he doesn't develop the skills to play as a face-up 4/5 he'll never be anything more than a high energy garbage man.

Re: I blame Cliff (final rant)

Posted: Tue Mar 4, 2014 5:35 pm
by yosemiteben
By that logic, no coach is ever responsible for anything because "it's up to the players to go out on the floor and execute." So the players did a 180 and the coaching staff had nothing to do with that?

Re: I blame Cliff (final rant)

Posted: Tue Mar 4, 2014 5:48 pm
by Eoghan
yosemiteben wrote:By that logic, no coach is ever responsible for anything because "it's up to the players to go out on the floor and execute." So the players did a 180 and the coaching staff had nothing to do with that?

Kevin McHale was just on NBA TV supporting my logic. Coaches can't run out there and play defense or get buckets, any coach will tell you that.

I think it's very misguided to give the coaching staff all the credit for our improvement. If you give Clifford and Co. last year's roster or the year before do you think we'd have this year's record? We had a gutted, extremely raw/young team and a lot of this improvement, if not most of it, is due to all our young guys making strides in development from 1-2 years ago. Even Dunlap would have improved upon the record last year with this roster.

Re: I blame Cliff (final rant)

Posted: Tue Mar 4, 2014 5:48 pm
by fatlever
MasterIchiro wrote:Biz and MKG on the floor at the same time? I don't see 3 on 5 working.


2 and 3 man lineups confirm this much. you cant get away with playing those two at the same time for very long.

Re: I blame Cliff (final rant)

Posted: Tue Mar 4, 2014 5:49 pm
by Eoghan
fatlever wrote:
MasterIchiro wrote:Biz and MKG on the floor at the same time? I don't see 3 on 5 working.


2 and 3 man lineups confirm this much. you cant get away with playing those two at the same time for very long.*

*in Clifford's 18 seconds or more offense.

Re: I blame Cliff (final rant)

Posted: Tue Mar 4, 2014 6:33 pm
by yosemiteben
BrotherDave wrote:
yosemiteben wrote:By that logic, no coach is ever responsible for anything because "it's up to the players to go out on the floor and execute." So the players did a 180 and the coaching staff had nothing to do with that?

Kevin McHale was just on NBA TV supporting my logic. Coaches can't run out there and play defense or get buckets, any coach will tell you that.

I think it's very misguided to give the coaching staff all the credit for our improvement. If you give Clifford and Co. last year's roster or the year before do you think we'd have this year's record? We had a gutted, extremely raw/young team and a lot of this improvement, if not most of it, is due to all our young guys making strides in development from 1-2 years ago. Even Dunlap would have improved upon the record last year with this roster.

I agree that improvement is not completely on the coach. I also strongly disagree that our improvement this season has nothing to do with the coach.

Re: I blame Cliff (final rant)

Posted: Tue Mar 4, 2014 9:01 pm
by ball teacher
mrknowitall215 wrote:
ball teacher wrote:You guys are giving Cliff all the credit, what about the fact that we now have a all star big man who's dominating for us? What about the fact that last year we weren't really trying to make the playoffs and we were losing to get a high draft pick? Cliff isn't terrible,but he isn't the savior you guys are making him to be, and imo, he's making mistakes. We have a team with talent and any coach with a little basketball sense could make use of these guys especially in the weaker eastern conference.


Of course Clifford is making mistakes, he's human after all, and of course he doesn't deserve 100% of the credit for how well Charlotte is playing, but what coach ever deserves all of the credit when it's the players that play, but he's done a excellent job of instilling a structure & model that this team can build on, all the while staying competitive on a nightly basis. The Bobcats went from historically the worst defense the past two seasons into a top-10 defense this season, therefore I would consider Clifford somewhat of a savior


Mrknowitall, you have a point, and to be fair Cliff has done a good job of bringing a identity to this team. We feed our big man, we play defense, we pass the ball and play hard. But then again, like Brother Dave said, we also have high character guys who bring it every night on both ends of the floor. Hendo, who I'm not a fan of, always plays tough, almost borderline dirty basketball. He gets physical, he takes charges, he, Kemba and MKG are feisty perimeter defenders, who actually make the game easier (defensively) for the bigs.

Brother Dave, I understand your point about Zeller. Maybe he could try being a face up player like Aldridge in Portland. I'm just old school, so when I here about 7ft athletic big men, I think they should be getting busy inside, not hoisting u 18 foot jump shots.

Re: I blame Cliff (final rant)

Posted: Tue Mar 4, 2014 9:17 pm
by mrknowitall215
I would agree that Clifford isn't putting individual players (sans Al Jefferson) in a position to strive and/or develop, but he's putting this team in a position to win and/or consistently compete

Re: I blame Cliff (final rant)

Posted: Wed Mar 5, 2014 11:25 am
by LamarMatic7
BrotherDave wrote:Nah, that is 100% on the players. You can do all the coaching you want, it's up to the players to go out on the floor and execute.


BrotherDave wrote:Coaches can't run out there and play defense or get buckets, any coach will tell you that.


BrotherDave wrote:Even Dunlap would have improved upon the record last year with this roster.


I severely disagree with your notion on good defense being 100% up to the players. Teams become good on that end because they execute their coach's schemes. Of course, you need the right personnel for the task. But it doesn't happen just by itself.

We might have been better record-wise even if we had Dunlap this year but it doesn't seem like he could have improved our defense. We have 82 games of evidence on how his overloading schemes didn't work. We were simply a mess.

Re: I blame Cliff (final rant)

Posted: Wed Mar 5, 2014 6:01 pm
by DY_nasty
Blaming Clifford is some of the dumbest crap I've read on realGM in my entire life.

I hope you get on an elevator and everyone farts as soon as the door shuts.