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Off Topic VIII

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Re: Off Topic VIII 

Post#1741 » by Hornet Mania » Sun Apr 18, 2021 4:41 pm

BigSlam wrote:
Hornet Mania wrote:If Fields falls I think the Panthers have to take him at 8. IMO he's clearly the 2nd-best QB prospect in the draft but the scouting industrial complex has awarded him their annual title of 'player with no obvious red flags we're just gonna **** on for four months because we need hot takes' which has sent his stock tumbling.

If Fields isn't there I'd choose Pitts, LT, CB, or trade down in that order.

Fields clearly the second best QB and not Wilson?


I think so, he's certainly less of a risk with just as high of a ceiling imo. I'm concerned with Wilson's lack of real competition in college and all that was with an awesome o-line the entire time.

To me if seems like Fields played stronger competition, crushed it in big games, has great accuracy with low turnovers and is a better athlete but the draftniks just started talking themselves into Wilson near the tail end of the process. I think Wilson could end up being the better player since everything is a crapshoot and environment matters a lot, but I don't see any reason to choose him over Fields.

I'd rank the Big 5
1. Lawrence
2. Fields
3. Wilson
4. Lance
5. Jones
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Re: Off Topic VIII 

Post#1742 » by BigSlam » Sun Apr 18, 2021 10:49 pm

Hornet Mania wrote:
BigSlam wrote:
Hornet Mania wrote:If Fields falls I think the Panthers have to take him at 8. IMO he's clearly the 2nd-best QB prospect in the draft but the scouting industrial complex has awarded him their annual title of 'player with no obvious red flags we're just gonna **** on for four months because we need hot takes' which has sent his stock tumbling.

If Fields isn't there I'd choose Pitts, LT, CB, or trade down in that order.

Fields clearly the second best QB and not Wilson?


I think so, he's certainly less of a risk with just as high of a ceiling imo. I'm concerned with Wilson's lack of real competition in college and all that was with an awesome o-line the entire time.

To me if seems like Fields played stronger competition, crushed it in big games, has great accuracy with low turnovers and is a better athlete but the draftniks just started talking themselves into Wilson near the tail end of the process. I think Wilson could end up being the better player since everything is a crapshoot and environment matters a lot, but I don't see any reason to choose him over Fields.

I'd rank the Big 5
1. Lawrence
2. Fields
3. Wilson
4. Lance
5. Jones

I don't know man, I mean I think Fields has tremendous potential but like penquin11 posted - his release is historically slow.

Now, is that because he is slow to process or can't get off his 1st read? Or is it because he has massive balls and doesn't mind standing in the pocket and taking hits?

Wilson has that quick processing, off platform throwing "pop" to his game. You are 100% right, it's been against lesser opposition, but even still it's hard not to be enamored with some of the stuff that Wilson can do.

Best case (very best case) scenario, who is their ceiling NFL comps re: playing style?

Lawrence = Andrew Luck?
Wilson = Patrick Mahomes?
Fields = Russell Wilson?
Lance = Cam Newton (the MVP one)?
Jones = Drew Brees?
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Re: Off Topic VIII 

Post#1743 » by penquin11 » Mon Apr 19, 2021 2:48 am

BigSlam wrote:Totally get what you are saying. Why settle for a lower tier (but still good) OT in the 2-5 rounds when you can get a slam dunk OT with #8 like Penie Sewell and Rashawn Slater - especially when it’s such a position of need for you guys.

JOK, the line backer from ND, scares me a little. I appreciate the movement of positionless defensive players in the NFL but after seeing Isiah Simmons under achieve last year after the “he can play 4 positions” hype going into his draft I’d be gun shy. That said, maybe Arizona just didn’t/doesn’t know how to use Simmons correctly. Plus JOK does show a much more aggressive and attacking style of play, so maybe he’ll be much better.

I get you not wanting Farley to drop to us. Him and Lattimore could make for a dynamic CB pairing. I feel the same way about you guys finding a stud DB to pair with Chin - especially if we have Jameis tossing passes into your coverage ready to be picked off.



I like the abbreviation JOK- from now on I will be using that for him. I agree completely about your assessment- he really isn't a true LB in standard terms, but he is such a freak athlete that he can cover both TE's and WR's so he basically would function as a box safety that you could then use to disguise coverage. I think he would allow the Panthers to play Nickel without sacrificing run defense or without creating a mismatch should the offense line up 4 wide. Can you imagine the trouble our defense would give teams if we had 2 of Jeremy Chinn.

I keep on going back to the QB discussion here but I think drafting a QB at 8 would be a setback for the team overall given that we just traded for a young QB (Darnold is still younger than Joe Burrow) and still have Teddy on contract (for now).
Devilzsidewalk wrote:no, the DB's will just be thinking "damn, I thought that was going to be a run!" as they easily recover to intercept a Ponder pass 10 yards off the mark
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Re: Off Topic VIII 

Post#1744 » by BlackOutBuzz » Mon Apr 19, 2021 3:18 am

Hornet Mania wrote:
I'd rank the Big 5
1. Lawrence
2. Fields
3. Wilson
4. Lance
5. Jones


This is where I've had the QBs for months. That said: 1, 4, and 5 are pretty much locked in, but I can see the argument for 2 and 3 flipping. The Mac Jones hype is kinda wild but I hope the Niners actually take him 3rd.

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Re: Off Topic VIII 

Post#1745 » by penquin11 » Mon Apr 19, 2021 3:13 pm

I removed Tottenham Hotspur from the list of teams I support today. I'm disgusted that they would be involved in the European Super League. I love soccer for the identity each club has and the rivalries and histories they share within the league. I genuinely would rather watch West Ham vs Tottenham rather than Real Madrid vs Tottenham. I for one will NOT be watching the new Super League. And I will also no longer be a Spurs fan.
Devilzsidewalk wrote:no, the DB's will just be thinking "damn, I thought that was going to be a run!" as they easily recover to intercept a Ponder pass 10 yards off the mark
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Re: Off Topic VIII 

Post#1746 » by Hornet Mania » Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:13 pm

BigSlam wrote:I don't know man, I mean I think Fields has tremendous potential but like penquin11 posted - his release is historically slow.

Now, is that because he is slow to process or can't get off his 1st read? Or is it because he has massive balls and doesn't mind standing in the pocket and taking hits?

Wilson has that quick processing, off platform throwing "pop" to his game. You are 100% right, it's been against lesser opposition, but even still it's hard not to be enamored with some of the stuff that Wilson can do.

Best case (very best case) scenario, who is their ceiling NFL comps re: playing style?

Lawrence = Andrew Luck?
Wilson = Patrick Mahomes?
Fields = Russell Wilson?
Lance = Cam Newton (the MVP one)?
Jones = Drew Brees?


Personally from what I watched of OSU Fields has young Big Ben syndrome where he's just willing to take hits if it gives him an extra second to find the open man. I could be totally wrong on him of course, QB is notoriously tricky to predict.

I don't meant to be too harsh on Wilson, before the scouting industrial complex got ahold of his stock I was fine with the Panthers taking him at 8. I just think his lack of competition and pristine protection are serious question marks that are getting waved aside a bit because on tape he is a joy to watch. I consider Wilson a high risk prospect but even with that being said his ceiling is so high if he actually is legit he's worth burning a top 10 pick easily just to chase the upside. I just feel like the range of outcomes with Fields is narrower, and the ceiling only slightly lower if at all.

I haven't thought too terribly hard about comps for all the big 5, except Mac Jones just because I've had to explain to friends why I don't want Carolina to pick him, but here are my best guesses just so you can see where my head is at.

1. Trevor Lawrence (very low risk)
Best case- Andrew Luck with better wheels
Worst case- Kerry Collins? Jeff George? (Basically for him to bust he needs substance abuse and/or personality issues and even then he's probably a starter)

2. Justin Fields (medium risk)
Best case- Dak Prescott but more accurate
Worst case- Tyrod Taylor if he pushed the ball downfield

3. Zach Wilson (high risk)
Best case- Taller Russell Wilson(maybe it's just the last name, but his off-platform stuff reminds me more of Russ than Mahomes)
Worst case- Baker Mayfield if he gambled more on his throws into tight windows

4. Trey Lance (high risk)
Best case- Cam Newton/Colin Kapernick hybrid (faster than Cam, bigger than Kap)
Worst case- Kordell Stewart

5. Mac Jones (medium risk)
Best case- Matt Ryan with slightly less arm talent
Worst case- Chad Henne (For all my **** on Mac I do think he's at worst the 30th best QB in the league in his prime)
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Re: Off Topic VIII 

Post#1747 » by amcoolio » Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:41 pm

I trust Chris Simms (media has seemed to catch on to his QB analysis) and he doesn't think Fields is a starting level QB.

I don't want any of them if I'm the Panthers unless Lawrence or Wilson magically falls. Give me the best tight end, best tackle, best guard, or best WR at 8 (one of those will be there)

I am one of those guys that you always draft best player available in the first round and then draft for need in the other rounds.
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Re: Off Topic VIII 

Post#1748 » by BlackOutBuzz » Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:55 am

I've generally been a BPA guy, but I feel like there are caveats... namely the value of the position. Like, the last time Carolina picked 8th they took McCaffrey and frankly he's been great, but the team hasn't been.

They started 2018 6-2 before Cam's injury, then CMC became the focal point of the offense and they finished 1-7.

2019 he went 1K/1K...5 wins.
2020 he missed 13 games...5 wins.

Obviously it's not all on him, but it'd be nice if the face of the franchise had a greater impact on the outcome of games. Between Mike Davis and Curtis Samuel he was barely missed...

So when I look at the draft now and see a guy like Kyle Pitts - maybe the 2nd most talented player in the class - and I can't help but think about how traditionally TE doesn't have the same impact as premium positions like QB, OT, pass rusher, or corner.

I also see the Niners trading 3 years worth of firsts to move up, they're only making that type of move for a QB. So it seems as though the best scenario for Carolina would be to have a QB on the board at their pick, even if they don't actually draft that player and instead trade back for other assets.

Otherwise, if the QBs are gone there should (hopefully) still be a top tackle on the board at 8.

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Re: Off Topic VIII 

Post#1749 » by Rays Pompadour » Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:05 pm

Tom Brady has so very much skewed the league. So now, the perception is that in order to succeed, a team must have an all-world QB. Brady, Roethlesburger, Mahomes, Rogers, Brees, Manning. I think the last average Joe QB to win a title was Jeff Hostetler. One could argue that Foles was pedestrian, but that Philly team was lightning in a bottle. The '12 Ravens had Joe Flacco, so there's that.

But the modern thinking - I see you Dave Tepper - is that a franchise must have a Brady-level QB to win titles. I follow the thinking, but disagree with the premise. The key to consistent winning isn't a QB that can take a squad beyond its talent, it's an offensive line that can give a smart QB time to process (Mac Jones) and a defensive line (Hello, '16 Broncos) that puts constant pressure on opposing QB's. You want sustained success, Carolina? Get nasty in the trenches. It ain't sexy to draft an offensive lineman, but it is essential to sustained winning.

All that said, if Sewell is there it's a no-brainer pick, but I move more toward CB at #8 or trade down (for a CB - Horn, Farley; OT - Darrisaw, Jenkins). I think Slater is a guard and Kellen Mond in the second round makes more sense for Carolina's QB room.
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Re: Off Topic VIII 

Post#1750 » by JDR720 » Tue Apr 20, 2021 7:15 pm

Rays Pompadour wrote:Tom Brady has so very much skewed the league. So now, the perception is that in order to succeed, a team must have an all-world QB. Brady, Roethlesburger, Mahomes, Rogers, Brees, Manning. I think the last average Joe QB to win a title was Jeff Hostetler. One could argue that Foles was pedestrian, but that Philly team was lightning in a bottle. The '12 Ravens had Joe Flacco, so there's that.

But the modern thinking - I see you Dave Tepper - is that a franchise must have a Brady-level QB to win titles. I follow the thinking, but disagree with the premise. The key to consistent winning isn't a QB that can take a squad beyond its talent, it's an offensive line that can give a smart QB time to process (Mac Jones) and a defensive line (Hello, '16 Broncos) that puts constant pressure on opposing QB's. You want sustained success, Carolina? Get nasty in the trenches. It ain't sexy to draft an offensive lineman, but it is essential to sustained winning.

All that said, if Sewell is there it's a no-brainer pick, but I move more toward CB at #8 or trade down (for a CB - Horn, Farley; OT - Darrisaw, Jenkins). I think Slater is a guard and Kellen Mond in the second round makes more sense for Carolina's QB room.

I don't disagree with this, but it's easier to hit on 1 QB than several OL/DL players in a vacuum. The only potential equalizer is you have multiple picks in different rounds to hit on those players, and just the top picks to hit on a QB. You aren't going to find many, if any, Russell Wilsons.

Carolina almost had this with Cam and a very good D-line but the O-Line wasn't great and Cam was very inconsistent. Made it to the Superbowl after going undefeated and got dumped on.
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Re: Off Topic VIII 

Post#1751 » by predators » Wed Apr 21, 2021 6:21 pm

Rays Pompadour wrote:Tom Brady has so very much skewed the league. So now, the perception is that in order to succeed, a team must have an all-world QB. Brady, Roethlesburger, Mahomes, Rogers, Brees, Manning. I think the last average Joe QB to win a title was Jeff Hostetler. One could argue that Foles was pedestrian, but that Philly team was lightning in a bottle. The '12 Ravens had Joe Flacco, so there's that.

But the modern thinking - I see you Dave Tepper - is that a franchise must have a Brady-level QB to win titles. I follow the thinking, but disagree with the premise. The key to consistent winning isn't a QB that can take a squad beyond its talent, it's an offensive line that can give a smart QB time to process (Mac Jones) and a defensive line (Hello, '16 Broncos) that puts constant pressure on opposing QB's. You want sustained success, Carolina? Get nasty in the trenches. It ain't sexy to draft an offensive lineman, but it is essential to sustained winning.

All that said, if Sewell is there it's a no-brainer pick, but I move more toward CB at #8 or trade down (for a CB - Horn, Farley; OT - Darrisaw, Jenkins). I think Slater is a guard and Kellen Mond in the second round makes more sense for Carolina's QB room.


I think the key is you have to have an under-market value QB (usually rookie contract) with a loaded roster or have a roster stacked across the board (with underpaid guys) that can then get a top tier veteran QB on a free (Denver/TB).

It's pretty rare for the highest paid player at their position to win a Superbowl, it's all about getting value and knowing when to push your chips in. I don't think you'll ever see a dynasty like the Patriots unless another QB decides they would rather win then get paid their market value. (or the rules change).
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Re: Off Topic VIII 

Post#1752 » by BigSlam » Mon Apr 26, 2021 3:37 pm

He might be a really great kid with a fantastic personality, but my oh my Zach Wilson has a very punchable face.

Everything about the way he looks screams "douchebag" to me.
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Re: Off Topic VIII 

Post#1753 » by SWedd523 » Mon Apr 26, 2021 4:12 pm

BigSlam wrote:He might be a really great kid with a fantastic personality, but my oh my Zach Wilson has a very punchable face.

Everything about the way he looks screams "douchebag" to me.

Agreed on all counts.

Don't know anything about him as a person, but I really wanna just plant one right in his face hole
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Re: Off Topic VIII 

Post#1754 » by predators » Mon Apr 26, 2021 9:13 pm

BigSlam wrote:
Hornet Mania wrote:
BigSlam wrote:Fields clearly the second best QB and not Wilson?


I think so, he's certainly less of a risk with just as high of a ceiling imo. I'm concerned with Wilson's lack of real competition in college and all that was with an awesome o-line the entire time.

To me if seems like Fields played stronger competition, crushed it in big games, has great accuracy with low turnovers and is a better athlete but the draftniks just started talking themselves into Wilson near the tail end of the process. I think Wilson could end up being the better player since everything is a crapshoot and environment matters a lot, but I don't see any reason to choose him over Fields.

I'd rank the Big 5
1. Lawrence
2. Fields
3. Wilson
4. Lance
5. Jones

I don't know man, I mean I think Fields has tremendous potential but like penquin11 posted - his release is historically slow.

Now, is that because he is slow to process or can't get off his 1st read? Or is it because he has massive balls and doesn't mind standing in the pocket and taking hits?

Wilson has that quick processing, off platform throwing "pop" to his game. You are 100% right, it's been against lesser opposition, but even still it's hard not to be enamored with some of the stuff that Wilson can do.

Best case (very best case) scenario, who is their ceiling NFL comps re: playing style?

Lawrence = Andrew Luck?
Wilson = Patrick Mahomes?
Fields = Russell Wilson?
Lance = Cam Newton (the MVP one)?
Jones = Drew Brees?


If historically slow release is pertaining to how long it takes him to physically windup and sling the ball than that is actually a giant red flag. I think it took Tebow almost an entire half second longer to physically throw a ball as Aaron Rodgers.

It kind of sounds like people are talking about how long he holds on to the ball though. Skimming old scouting reports, Deshaun/Mayfield had really quick release once they actually started their throwing motion coming out of college even if they had the tendency to hold on to the ball a long time.
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Re: Off Topic VIII 

Post#1755 » by Hornet Mania » Mon Apr 26, 2021 10:20 pm

Regardless of what happens I think the Panthers front office has been extremely disciplined during the pre-draft process. It seems at this point every other team in the top 10 has blabbed about what they intend to do with Carolina being the most notable exception. The mocks have us picking about eight different guys at four different positions before trade downs are even considered.

It puts the front office in a really good position to credibly claim to trade partners that they might pick the QB that team wants if they don't pony up a king's ransom. "Yeah, we know the 12th pick plus your 2nd rounder is fair value but we really like Fields/Lance. We're going to need you to throw in next year's 1st to part with a potential franchise player."

It just seems like now that Atlanta has apparently given up on trading their pick the pivot point of the draft is 8. Hopefully the new GM plays it just right.
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Re: Off Topic VIII 

Post#1756 » by SWedd523 » Wed Apr 28, 2021 6:33 pm

I just saw the Gov of NC has lifted outdoor mask mandates.

...have y'all really been wearing masks outside this whole time?!
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Re: Off Topic VIII 

Post#1757 » by predators » Fri Apr 30, 2021 3:12 pm

SWedd523 wrote:I just saw the Gov of NC has lifted outdoor mask mandates.

...have y'all really been wearing masks outside this whole time?!


I haven't been uptown in awhile (only place that had enough foot traffic for me even think wearing mask might be necessary outside) (was a ghost town last time I went.). But my experience around the neighborhood is a no. Even in restaurants you only wear them to get seated and to go to the restroom. Maybe people have been wearing them in public parks but I doubt it.
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Re: Off Topic VIII 

Post#1758 » by euphorbus » Fri Apr 30, 2021 4:04 pm

SWedd523 wrote:I just saw the Gov of NC has lifted outdoor mask mandates.

...have y'all really been wearing masks outside this whole time?!


Not since December, no.
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Re: Off Topic VIII 

Post#1759 » by luciano-davidwesley » Tue May 11, 2021 9:02 am

JC Horn to wear #8 to honor Kobe. Probably not well thought out seeing as though he's representing a team in NC and the infamous Kobe trade.
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Re: Off Topic VIII 

Post#1760 » by Snidely FC » Sat May 29, 2021 11:52 pm

Chelsea with the Champions League upset go Blues!

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