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Hornets sign MCW

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Re: Hornets sign MCW 

Post#341 » by Braggins » Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:18 am

catch20two wrote:
Liver_Pooty wrote:
catch20two wrote:Lol



:D

To be fair you did say that you actually liked Briante Weber more than MCW almost immediately afterwards. I agreed. I’m just having a little fun.

It would have been a perfectly fine value signing if we were signing him for emergency depth as a 3rd PG. The problem was that we were signing him to be our backup PG and it seemed pretty likely that there was no way he was going to pan out for us in that role, so the "value" of his signing didn't actually matter at all because he wasn't going to fill the role we needed him to with any kind of success.
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Re: Hornets sign MCW 

Post#342 » by Braggins » Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:18 am

I feel like a bad person for wanting this horror show to continue in order to help the tank. I seriously want us to shut Kemba down for a bit to protect his health and start MCW lol.
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Re: Hornets sign MCW 

Post#343 » by Braggins » Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:23 am

catch20two wrote:
fatlever wrote:Pretty sure 25 other teams would have cut him at this point or at least stopped playing him. It's embarrassing. Both for the player and the franchise. All this tall defensive point guard stuff just reeks of Clifford. One more reason he should not be given any input on this roster ever again.

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Cho doesn’t get to escape this one unscathed. We were backed into a corner due to his lack of utilizing our cap space to take someone of MCW’s caliber.

The scouting team didn’t do their job on this signing. They blindly assumed MCW couldn’t be this bad based on his ROY season and looking at box score stats. Anyone that actually watched MCW would know that he’s this bad regardless of the percentages.

I view the front office as a combination of Cho/Clifford/MJ, but its hard to tell who really has the most power or takes priority when it comes to decision making. So, while I don't give Cho a pass, I do at times wonder if he is really as bad as it sometimes seems, or if he looks worse because he is trying to fulfill MJ's directives and Cliffords outdated garbage system demands. I still remember how good Cho seemed when we first hired him and he was basically doing his own version of the Hinkie process. He pulled off some masterful trades for draft picks and actually did a really good job at cap management. After we seemed to take a hard directional shift in the offseason where we signed Clifford and Al, it seemed like he was a different GM all of a sudden and it kept getting worse and worse every season.
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Re: Hornets sign MCW 

Post#344 » by catch20two » Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:25 am

Braggins wrote:I feel like a bad person for wanting this horror show to continue in order to help the tank. I seriously want us to shut Kemba down for a bit to protect his health and start MCW lol.

It’s the most entertaining part of me watching the games lately. I just watch to see what new way he’ll find to miss a layup, airball a 3, or turn the ball over.
They will wage war against the Lamb but the Lamb will triumph them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings - and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers." Revelation 17:14 (NIV)
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Re: RE: Re: Hornets sign MCW 

Post#345 » by yosemiteben » Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:29 am

mrknowitall215 wrote:Your argument just doesn’t make any sense and defies logic. That’s why I don’t understand what your stance is. Probably what’s more irrational about your argument is that you’re so adamant about it when you don’t have any grounds to stand on


It's not an irrational argument. What is not disputed:

(A) MCW has shot significantly below historical averages.

(B) Our bench has been terrible offensively.

A directly impacts B. Increasing MCW's efficiency would increase our bench's offense. What is being argued is the extent of the hypothetical improvement, but the principle that there would be at least some improvement is not really debatable and not irrational.
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Re: Hornets sign MCW 

Post#346 » by catch20two » Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:44 am

Eh Yosemite, is MCW good? Yes or No?
They will wage war against the Lamb but the Lamb will triumph them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings - and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers." Revelation 17:14 (NIV)
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Re: RE: Re: Hornets sign MCW 

Post#347 » by yosemiteben » Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:47 am

catch20two wrote:Eh Yosemite, is MCW good? Yes or No?
Defensively, yes. Offensively, no.

In theory MCW works fine in a lineup next to Monk, Lamb, and Frank, where they carry the scoring load and MCW's job is basically just to bring the ball up and not turn it over.
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Re: Hornets sign MCW 

Post#348 » by Vanderbilt_Grad » Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:52 am

yosemiteben wrote:Cool, you disagree with my argument. I'm fine with that. Just don't act like I haven't been clear about what that argument is or like there is some nefarious intent.


Ben, your statements in this thread and elsewhere were unclear to me. My perception was that you were attacking or making random counterarguments with no clear end goal in sight.

Given your arguments:
yosemiteben wrote:MCW's performance this season is not reflective of his past performance. Establishing that fact and exploring it is helpful in diagnosing the problem with this team.

I'm arguing that MCW has never played this poorly, and if he played more in line with his historical performance our bench would be better.


Lets look at a couple of your assumptions.

1. MCW has never played this poorly.

Taking a look at https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/cartemi01.html and there are some indications otherwise. MCW’s VORP is just as bad here as it was in Chicago and his BPM, WS, and DRtg aren’t out of line with that either. Yes he is slightly worse here, but the role he had in Chicago, backing up Rondo, is similar to what he got here and the performance is in line with that. Further, it’s clear from links I posted earlier, that he has had issues the entire time he’s been in the league. As the NBA has changed and teams have scouted him better his performance has only gotten worse.

2. If MCW were playing better then the Hornets bench would be better.

In some ways that’s self-evident. If all the bench guys were doing better, then the bench wouldn’t be a problem, right? The thing is that the bench, with the exception of Lamb, is mostly guys with bad ORtg and OK DRtg. Even if MCW were playing well he wouldn’t be bringing the skillset needed to the bench. As others have argued elsewhere a Lou Williams or Jeremy Lin type player with strong offence would help the bench far more than a defensive MCW. A ‘good’ MCW might, in theory, be OK with a bench running Monk, Lamb, and other offensive threats, but even then his past performance throws some doubt on that.

3. Clarifying why MCW is playing poorly might help frame why the team as a whole is.

I both agree and disagree here. At this point, with more research under my belt, I think that MCW was likely to have been trash here or anywhere. He probably shouldn’t be in the league at this point.

That said, my personal view is that the Hornet’s overall lack of passing I pointed out elsewhere is the real issue. The team is not running an offense where the ball moves and the open man takes a shot most of the time. I think that there are multiple reasons for this, ranging from scheme, to issues that individual guys on the team have.

In MCW’s case he is a part of that problem for the bench. He frequently takes shots he shouldn’t, disrupting the flow of the offence and he rarely seems to really move the ball well. His inaccuracy, even on shots he probably should be taking, like those layups, is both a result of the lack of ball movement and his own issues – such as lack of strength and any sort of mental block he has going on.

In any case, my TL:DR, is that MCW shouldn’t be in the league and there isn’t too much to be learned from him IMHO.
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Re: RE: Re: Hornets sign MCW 

Post#349 » by yosemiteben » Fri Dec 29, 2017 1:02 am

Vanderbilt_Grad wrote:1. MCW has never played this poorly.

Taking a look at https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/cartemi01.html and there are some indications otherwise. MCW’s VORP is just as bad here as it was in Chicago and his BPM, WS, and DRtg aren’t out of line with that either. Yes he is slightly worse here, but the role he had in Chicago, backing up Rondo, is similar to what he got here and the performance is in line with that. Further, it’s clear from links I posted earlier, that he has had issues the entire time he’s been in the league. As the NBA has changed and teams have scouted him better his performance has only gotten worse.

I should have been more specific. I was specifically referring to his shooting efficiency, which is far below his career average and any season he's had so far. I also had in mind his FG% within 10 feet, which is also true.

Vanderbilt_Grad wrote:2. If MCW were playing better then the Hornets bench would be better.

In some ways that’s self-evident. If all the bench guys were doing better, then the bench wouldn’t be a problem, right? The thing is that the bench, with the exception of Lamb, is mostly guys with bad ORtg and OK DRtg. Even if MCW were playing well he wouldn’t be bringing the skillset needed to the bench.

I think MCW's inability to make close shots places enormous pressure on the rest of the unit, so I don't agree with this. If he was just not terrible, it would change how opposing teams defend and also would open up driving lanes for other guys.

Vanderbilt_Grad wrote:3. Clarifying why MCW is playing poorly might help frame why the team as a whole is.

I both agree and disagree here. At this point, with more research under my belt, I think that MCW was likely to have been trash here or anywhere. He probably shouldn’t be in the league at this point.

That said, my personal view is that the Hornet’s overall lack of passing I pointed out elsewhere is the real issue. The team is not running an offense where the ball moves and the open man takes a shot most of the time. I think that there are multiple reasons for this, ranging from scheme, to issues that individual guys on the team have.

In MCW’s case he is a part of that problem for the bench. He frequently takes shots he shouldn’t, disrupting the flow of the offence and he rarely seems to really move the ball well. His inaccuracy, even on shots he probably should be taking, like those layups, is both a result of the lack of ball movement and his own issues – such as lack of strength and any sort of mental block he has going on.

I agree with most of this.
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Re: Hornets sign MCW 

Post#350 » by yosemiteben » Fri Dec 29, 2017 1:23 am

In the offseason I assumed MCW was signed to play next to Monk, Lamb, Frank, and Cody. I like that lineup.

This is my view of the evolution of the second unit and why things have actually gotten worse:

First we saw that Bacon was going to be played over Monk. That was a major red flag for me when it comes to MCW because it isn't realistic to expect Bacon to have a major offensive impact, and he also doesn't spread the floor, so not at all clear how he and MCW fit. Monk at SG makes so much more sense, even though he is way behind defensively.

Then Cody went down. Cody in my view is the lubrication that helps open up our offense, so that was really bad news for MCW fitting as well.

Now we play Batum next to MCW, which actually makes MCW worse because he is moved off ball but Batum himself is not a scorer, so he's looking to make plays for MCW. Factor in MCW's finishing issues and general shooting limitations and we really would be better off playing someone else at PG.

My view the whole time is that MCW will work as part of an offense heavy lineup that doesn't depend at all on his ability to score. That is not the role we have for him now.
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Re: Hornets sign MCW 

Post#351 » by catch20two » Fri Dec 29, 2017 1:29 am

yosemiteben wrote:In the offseason I assumed MCW was signed to play next to Monk, Lamb, Frank, and Cody. I like that lineup.

This is my view of the evolution of the second unit and why things have actually gotten worse:

First we saw that Bacon was going to be played over Monk. That was a major red flag for me when it comes to MCW because it isn't realistic to expect Bacon to have a major offensive impact, and he also doesn't spread the floor, so not at all clear how he and MCW fit. Monk at SG makes so much more sense, even though he is way behind defensively.

Then Cody went down. Cody in my view is the lubrication that helps open up our offense, so that was really bad news for MCW fitting as well.

Now we play Batum next to MCW, which actually makes MCW worse because he is moved off ball but Batum himself is not a scorer, so he's looking to make plays for MCW. Factor in MCW's finishing issues and we really would be better off playing someone else at PG.

My view the whole time is that MCW will work as part of an offense heavy lineup that doesn't depend at all on his ability to score. That is not the role we have for him now.

I told you that any lineup with MCW will falter.

I told you that MCW will shoot sub-40%.

I told you that MCW would have the worst net rating among rotation players.

You was wrong. Even if he was shooting his career numbers of inefficiency we’d still be losing more than we’re winning because he’s just that bad of a player.
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Re: Hornets sign MCW 

Post#352 » by yosemiteben » Fri Dec 29, 2017 1:39 am

My point is we still have not seen him with the lineup that best suits his skillset. Not exactly surprising that if we stick him in a lineup with a bunch of guys that can't hit threes consistently and can't carry an offense, it's not gonna go great.
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Re: Hornets sign MCW 

Post#353 » by Vanderbilt_Grad » Fri Dec 29, 2017 1:57 am

yosemiteben wrote:In the offseason I assumed MCW was signed to play next to Monk, Lamb, Frank, and Cody. I like that lineup.

This is my view of the evolution of the second unit and why things have actually gotten worse:

First we saw that Bacon was going to be played over Monk. That was a major red flag for me when it comes to MCW because it isn't realistic to expect Bacon to have a major offensive impact, and he also doesn't spread the floor, so not at all clear how he and MCW fit. Monk at SG makes so much more sense, even though he is way behind defensively.

Then Cody went down. Cody in my view is the lubrication that helps open up our offense, so that was really bad news for MCW fitting as well.

Now we play Batum next to MCW, which actually makes MCW worse because he is moved off ball but Batum himself is not a scorer, so he's looking to make plays for MCW. Factor in MCW's finishing issues and general shooting limitations and we really would be better off playing someone else at PG.

My view the whole time is that MCW will work as part of an offense heavy lineup that doesn't depend at all on his ability to score. That is not the role we have for him now.

FWIW I liked the pre-season theory that MCW/Monk/Lamb/Frank/Cody could work too. I remember the board talking about how the bench was going to be a strength this year.

I agree that someone else is needed at PG. If Batum is going to be the bench "PG" then more lineup changes might be needed.

Just MHO but I think that Cody's biggest impact is setting those screens. Really helps offensive guards like Kemba, Lin, and even Lamb. He could probably help Monk as a PG too, but I don't think that he would impact MCW quite as much.
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Re: Hornets sign MCW 

Post#354 » by catch20two » Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:27 am

yosemiteben wrote:My point is we still have not seen him with the lineup that best suits his skillset. Not exactly surprising that if we stick him in a lineup with a bunch of guys that can't hit threes consistently and can't carry an offense, it's not gonna go great.

What’s the lineup that best suit his skill sets?

MCW with Monk, Lamb, Frank, and Zeller?
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Re: RE: Re: Hornets sign MCW 

Post#355 » by yosemiteben » Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:34 am

catch20two wrote:
yosemiteben wrote:My point is we still have not seen him with the lineup that best suits his skillset. Not exactly surprising that if we stick him in a lineup with a bunch of guys that can't hit threes consistently and can't carry an offense, it's not gonna go great.

What’s the lineup that best suit his skill sets?

MCW with Monk, Lamb, Frank, and Zeller?
Correct. Could switch Graham and Monk, but even that is a stretch (and I'm high on Graham).

Ultimately it's just obvious that MCW can't be responsible for sustaining a team offensively.
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Re: RE: Re: Hornets sign MCW 

Post#356 » by catch20two » Fri Dec 29, 2017 5:04 pm

yosemiteben wrote:
catch20two wrote:
yosemiteben wrote:My point is we still have not seen him with the lineup that best suits his skillset. Not exactly surprising that if we stick him in a lineup with a bunch of guys that can't hit threes consistently and can't carry an offense, it's not gonna go great.

What’s the lineup that best suit his skill sets?

MCW with Monk, Lamb, Frank, and Zeller?
Correct. Could switch Graham and Monk, but even that is a stretch (and I'm high on Graham).

Ultimately it's just obvious that MCW can't be responsible for sustaining a team offensively.

That lineup with Bacon instead of Monk has played the 4th most minutes this season and they only have a 91.8 OFFRTG and a 97.2 DEFRTG with a -5.4 NETRTG.

That exact lineup with Monk has been successful in a grand total small sample size of 8 minutes split between 3 games tho.
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Re: Hornets sign MCW 

Post#357 » by yosemiteben » Fri Dec 29, 2017 5:41 pm

Yeah, I don't think Bacon can be counted on to help carry an offense so not surprised at that. To be fair, doesn't seem like Monk is anymore ready than Bacon.
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Re: Hornets sign MCW 

Post#358 » by catch20two » Fri Dec 29, 2017 6:33 pm

Silas has been slowly drawing back MCW’s minutes. Last game he only got 12 minutes that felt like 24 minutes worth of bloopers. I wouldn’t be surprised to see MCW fall out of the rotation and not play tonight. But I hope he doesn’t because it’s the best form of entertainment I get from this team at the moment. Here’s to hoping MCW take at least 10 shots tonight in over 20 minutes!!!

:beer:
They will wage war against the Lamb but the Lamb will triumph them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings - and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers." Revelation 17:14 (NIV)
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Re: Hornets sign MCW 

Post#359 » by Braggins » Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:57 am

Id pay money to get to see Masterichiros take on MCW.

Edit: Are there any coders on the board that could make an ichiro bot?
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Re: Hornets sign MCW 

Post#360 » by catch20two » Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:32 am

Braggins wrote:Id pay money to get to see Masterichiros take on MCW.

Edit: Are there any coders on the board that could make an ichiro bot?


Image


I found this gem from Masterichiro in regards to MCW.
They will wage war against the Lamb but the Lamb will triumph them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings - and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers." Revelation 17:14 (NIV)

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