Frank Kaminsky #2 - Not Extended (UFA)

[JDR720]

MKG was a victim of bad coaching more than anything (except tons of injuries). Cliff would just stick him in the shame corner the whole game. He played out of position too, he was really good as a PF his rookie year and he is playing well at PF this season too. Mark Price leaving messed him up too.

I liked Frank pre-draft, but as i looked into it more i became pretty anti-frank. He was a non-athletic skill based center, maybe he could've been a Ryan Anderson or Mirotic but he doesn't have the scorer mentality those two have.

[Najee12]

Frank is supposed to be a better version of Ryan Anderson and MKG supposed to be similar to prime Gerald Wallace.

Michael Kidd-Gilchrist has nothing in common with Gerald Wallace, an explosive athlete who bulked up from his days in college and Sacramento to become a combo forward who could score and rebound. Wallace always had scoring ability, while Kidd-Gilchrist was extremely limited offensively, especially given his horrible shooting motion.

I saw Kidd-Gilchrist having commonalities with Tony Allen and Stacey Augmon. Kidd-Gilchrist is lanky and has good lateral movement on defense, like Allen and Augmon. Kidd-Gilchrist never showed me he had any capability of being an offensive threat, beyond hustling, grabbing offensive rebounds or running on the break. I thought Kidd-Gilchrist's ultimate upside if he developed a semblance of a shot was the Atlanta-era Augmon, but he clearly shared Allen's offensive limitations.

As for Frank Kaminsky, comparing his upside to Ryan Anderson is a little far-fetched to me. Anderson always has been an outside-shooting big man; in college, Kaminsky played largely in the post and occasionally moved out to the top of the key. Anderson has had nine seasons where he has shot a better 3-point shooting percentage than Kaminksy's career 3-point shooting percentage. Anderson also seems to have a quicker release than Kaminsky and was a better rebounder (especially during Anderson's days in Orlando), plus Anderson seems to look for his offense more than Kaminsky.

Kaminsky reminded me more of Spencer Hawes, a screen-and-roll post player who can make an occasional 3-pointer. Hawes worked best playing off a pick and then going to the basket and infrequently being on the wing to accept a kickout pass. I never saw Kaminsky being some mad-bombing big man, a la Anderson or Brad Lohaus.

Moreover, look at their draft positions:

Kidd-Gilchrist (No. 2, 2012): Allen (No. 25, 2003), Augmon (No. 9, 1991), Wallace (No. 25, 2001).

Kaminsky (No. 9, 2015): Anderson (No. 21, 2008), Hawes (No. 10, 2007).

So Kamnsky and Kidd-Gilchrist went much higher in their respective draft classes than four of the five players we used as comparisons (the closest player relative to Kaminsky's and Kidd-Gilchrist's draft positions was Hawes, who was considered a reach and a project when he came out of Washington). If anything, it suggests Charlotte reached too high for Kaminsky and Kidd-Gilchrist, given their draft status and projected career arcs.

If you thought Kaminsky and Kidd-Gilchrist were going to be more than they presented, that's your prerogative. But I know with whom I compared them and they turned out to be very close to what I projected them to be.

[catch20two]

Good points but I’m going to stick to my opinion.

Revisionist theory honestly we were projected to draft Thomas Robinson instead of MKG. Washington wasn’t passing on Beal because they needed a shooter next to Wall. I’m still perfectly fine with the MKG selection but hated the way we developed him. He became scared to shoot in fear of being benched and was likely told to accept his role of focusing solely on defense.

Clifford just let Frank do whateve and never really honed in his best game. Frank has displayed his capabilities over the years but lacked discipline.

[Najee12]

Good points but I’m going to stick to my opinion.

I have no problem with your opinion. I'm also stating my opinion on how I saw Michael Kidd-Gilchrist and Frank Kaminsky when they came out and how they turned out. Again, they became pretty much what I expected them to be.

Revisionist theory honestly we were projected to draft Thomas Robinson instead of MKG. Washington wasn’t passing on Beal because they needed a shooter next to Wall.

Bradley Beal went No. 3 (one spot behind Kidd-Gilchrist), so it's not revisionist history at all. There were several schools of thought on who Charlotte should select with the No. 2 pick in the NBA draft -- Beal, Kidd-Gilchrist, Thomas Robinson and Andre Drummond were the names that came up most commonly. To me, Beal made the most sense (several other journalists, such as Stephen A. Smith, said the same thing in 2012).

I’m still perfectly fine with the MKG selection but hated the way we developed him. He became scared to shoot in fear of being benched and was likely told to accept his role of focusing solely on defense.

I guess that is where we differ, because Kidd-Gilchrist had no kind of offensive game in college. His whole offensive game was predicated on hustling, not skill. His shooting form was horrible when he got to the NBA and even with Mark Price working with him, he still cannot shoot. I don't know any scouting report that saw Kidd-Gilchrist having any potential of being a much better offensive player than he showed in college (hence why I look at these "lack of player development" comments skeptically).

Given that Charlotte just came off the worst season in NBA history and desperately needing scoring and shooting, it made no sense to spend the No. 2 pick in the draft on a guy who can't score or shoot and looked like a Tony Allen clone.

Clifford just let Frank do whateve and never really honed in his best game. Frank has displayed his capabilities over the years but lacked discipline.

Again, I think you had some unrealistic expectations of Frank Kaminsky based on what I saw of him in college. There is one point on which I agree with you: I thought Charlotte reached too high for Kaminsky and Kidd-Gilchrist.

[catch20two]

Good points but I’m going to stick to my opinion.

I have no problem with your opinion. I'm also stating my opinion on how I saw Michael Kidd-Gilchrist and Frank Kaminsky when they came out and how they turned out. Again, they became pretty much what I expected them to be.

Revisionist theory honestly we were projected to draft Thomas Robinson instead of MKG. Washington wasn’t passing on Beal because they needed a shooter next to Wall.

Bradley Beal went No. 3, one spot behind Kidd-Gilchrist, so it's not revisionist history at all. There were several schools of thought on who Charlotte should select with the No. 2 pick in the NBA draft -- Beal, Kidd-Gilchrist, Thomas Robinson and Andre Drummond were the names that came up most commonly. To me, Beal made the most sense (several other journalists, such as Stephen A. Smith, said the same thing in 2012).

I’m still perfectly fine with the MKG selection but hated the way we developed him. He became scared to shoot in fear of being benched and was likely told to accept his role of focusing solely on defense.

I guess that is where we differ, because Kidd-Gilchrist had no kind of offensive game in college. His whole offensive game was predicated on hustling, not skill. His shooting form was horrible when he got to the NBA and even with Mark Price working with him, he still cannot shoot. I don't know any scouting report that saw Kidd-Gilchrist having any potential of being a much better offensive player than he showed in college (hence why I look at these "lack of player development" comments skeptically).

Given that Charlotte just came off the worst season in NBA history and desperately needing scoring and shooting, it made no sense to spend the No. 2 pick in the draft on a guy who can't score or shoot and looked like a Tony Allen clone.

Clifford just let Frank do whateve and never really honed in his best game. Frank has displayed his capabilities over the years but lacked discipline.

Again, I think you had some unrealistic expectations of Frank Kaminsky based on what I saw of him in college. There is one point on which I agree with you: I thought Charlotte reached too high for Kaminsky and Kidd-Gilchrist.

I wanted Kelly Oubre the year we drafted Kaminsky. However I had no problem with the Kaminsky pick even though I liked Myles Turner even more. I just didn’t have high hopes for a late lottery selection.

I thought Drummond would’ve been the perfect pick for Charlotte the year they took MKG but they chose against Drummond because they already had Biz. I’ll openly admit that I wasn’t high on Beal and predicted TRob would bust. I wouldn’t even be on this board if Charlotte never drafted MKG as a fellow South Jerseyan. I only chose to follow the Hornets because the Nets went from Jersey to Brooklyn and I needed a team to grasp on. I already liked Kemba coming out of college and Biz as a shot blocker so that’s how I ended up here. Fighting for Kemba over 5-6 years is how I ended up posting so much lol.

[Najee12]

When Frank and eventually MKG move on from us I’ll remember to remind everyone here when they become integral cogs in a winning system.

I always said Michael Kidd-Gilchrist and Frank Kaminsky would have been better suited on more established teams that need support help. I thought these teams that were farther ahead of Charlotte at the time and were looking for a more specified role would have been better fits for them, given their limitations:

Kidd-Gilchrist

* Optimistic reaching - No. 5 Sacramento (young talent in DeMarcus Cousins and Isaiah Thomas; move Tyreke Evans back to guard)
* Most likely position - No. 7 Golden State (wing defender to go with Stephen Curry and Klay Thompson)
* Most likely position - No. 8 Toronto (young, solid defensive team that could have used a wing to pair with DeMar DeRozan)
* Falling in the draft - No. 9 Detroit (potential successor to Tayshaun Prince on a veteran, rebuilding Pistons team)

Kaminsky

* Optimistic reaching - No. 10 Miami (veteran core of Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh; emerging center in Hasaan Whiteside)
* Most likely position - No. 12 Utah (developing core of Gordon Hayward, Derrick Favors and Rudy Gobert; bench help)
* Falling in the draft - No. 17 Milwaukee (young, positionless team; playing in Wisconsin, where he is popular)

Both players would be ideal reserve players for the current Philadelphia team; a Kidd-Gilchrist and Jimmy Butler wing tandem would be hellacious tag-teaming on the opposing team's top perimeter players. Kaminsky could offer more of a contrast to Joel Embiid, especially if he played more on the inside while Embiid rested. In many ways, Kaminsky and Kidd-Gilchrist are lesser versions of the players Philadelphia traded (Dario Saric and Robert Covington) to get Butler.

[catch20two]

When Frank and eventually MKG move on from us I’ll remember to remind everyone here when they become integral cogs in a winning system.

I always said Michael Kidd-Gilchrist and Frank Kaminsky would have been better suited on more established teams that need support help. I thought these teams that were farther ahead of Charlotte at the time and were looking for a more specified role would have been better fits for them, given their limitations:

Kidd-Gilchrist

* Optimistic reaching - No. 5 Sacramento (young talent in DeMarcus Cousins and Isaiah Thomas; move Tyreke Evans back to guard)
* Most likely position - No. 7 Golden State (wing defender to go with Stephen Curry and Klay Thompson)
* Most likely position - No. 8 Toronto (young, solid defensive team that could have used a wing to pair with DeMar DeRozan)
* Falling in the draft - No. 9 Detroit (potential successor to Tayshaun Prince on a veteran, rebuilding Pistons team)

Kaminsky

* Optimistic reaching - No. 10 Miami (veteran core of Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh; emerging center in Hasaan Whiteside)
* Most likely position - No. 12 Utah (developing core of Gordon Hayward, Derrick Favors and Rudy Gobert; bench help)
* Falling in the draft - No. 17 Milwaukee (young, positionless team; playing in Wisconsin, where he is popular)

Both players would be ideal reserve players for the current Philadelphia team; a Kidd-Gilchrist and Jimmy Butler wing tandem would be hellacious tag-teaming on the opposing team's top perimeter players. Kaminsky could offer more of a contrast to Joel Embiid, especially if he played more on the inside while Embiid rested. In many ways, Kaminsky and Kidd-Gilchrist are lesser versions of the players Philadelphia traded (Dario Saric and Robert Covington) to get Butler.

Once Cho realized he wasn’t going to be able to duplicate OKC circa 2012 he tried to sell us on being the Grit & Grind Memphis Grizzlies. We begin to go in the direction of being a defense-first team.

That was before the Steph Curry Warriors and James Harden Rockets revolutionized the game to being offense-first living by the 3-point shot with a sole defensive anchor in the starting lineup.

[Najee12]

I wanted Kelly Oubre the year we drafted Kaminsky. However I had no problem with the Kaminsky pick even though I liked Myles Turner even more. I just didn’t have high hopes for a late lottery selection.

I certainly would have taken Kelly Oubre at No. 15 if Charlotte traded the No. 9 pick for those four first-round picks Boston offered. I remember when he was at Kansas -- long and athletic (Charlotte was in need in wing athleticism, especially at shooting guard position) but seemed to lose focus and make some bad decisions.

Myles Turner certainly was an intriguing prospect to choose with the No. 9 pick, but I remember how Charlotte desperately needed outside shooting and backcourt scoring to go with Kemba Walker (I don't think it's a coincidence that Walker is having a career year while Jeremy Lamb is having his best NBA season). Devin Booker would have been my choice. As solid as Walker and Lamb have been this year, a Hornets backcourt of Booker and Walker would be even more explosive.

I thought Drummond would’ve been the perfect pick for Charlotte the year they took MKG but they chose against Drummond because they already had Biz. I’ll openly admit that I wasn’t high on Beal and predicted TRob would bust.

The reason I preferred Bradley Beal over Andre Drummond is Charlotte already invested a lottery pick in an interior big man with offensive limitations (Bismack Biyombo) one year earlier. There is no way Biyombo and Drummond could have played together, especially since the Hornets had no outside shooting to keep teams from collapsing on them. The floor spacing would have been horrible and both players needed major work on offense.

[Najee12]

Once Cho realized he wasn’t going to be able to duplicate OKC circa 2012 he tried to sell us on being the Grit & Grind Memphis Grizzlies. We begin to go in the direction of being a defense-first team.

That was before the Steph Curry Warriors and James Harden Rockets revolutionized the game to being offense-first living by the 3-point shot rather than dying with a sole defensive anchor in the starting lineup.

My favorite team is the Portland TrailBlazers, so I was familiar with Rich Cho before he came to Charlotte. Cho spent way too much of his energy trying to be the smartest person in the room and using analytic software to outguess the competition. I can't say I am surprised how much of a disaster his Charlotte tenure was.

Those Bobcats/Hornets teams of 2013-15 may have had a similar feel in some ways to the Grit and Grind Memphis Grizzlies (mostly, Michael Kidd-Gilchrist being a poor man's Tony Allen), but there were more dissimilarities. Al Jefferson was a great offensive player but he was a liability on defense (Marc Gasol was an excellent space defender and a good offensive player). Kemba Walker is a scoring point guard, while Mike Conley is a classic ball-distributor who is a good defender. So who was the equivalent of Zach Randolph (20-10 guy who was an enforcer on defense) -- Marvin Williams? Let's not mention the Lance Stephenson fiasco.

Even with a defensive-minded team, you need consistent scoring regardless of playing style. Those Memphis teams lacked offense among its wing players, so the Grizzlies could go only so far (playoff fixture, one Western Conference finals appearance). Those Hornets teams actually were worse; the 2014-15 Hornets shot .420 collectively from the field and .318 from 3-point land en route to averaging 94.2 points per game. Even the 2013-14 Bobcats team that went to the playoffs were only marginally better (.442 from the field, .351 from 3-point range, 96.9 points per game).

As much as I am not a fan of Mitch Kupchak, at least he has some credibility and better track record than Cho.

[SWedd523]

I hate hearing the excuses for MKG never learning how to shoot and also forgetting how to handle the ball

[yosemiteben]

What's going on with the subject lines in this thread? There's like five different ones.

[Vanderbilt_Grad]

What's going on with the subject lines in this thread? There's like five different ones.

Blame Cho & Jordan for that too.

[UNCNYC]

I hate hearing the excuses for MKG never learning how to shoot and also forgetting how to handle the ball

It's always weird when I see guys make so many shots in practice (like MKG does) and can't make ANY in a game. I was opposite as a casual player. I used to make many shots in games but never could make three in a row in practice

[BigSlam]

Read on Twitter

[JMAC3]

We suck... Jesus let’s just extend Willy to a 4/60 next... might as well we only make bad decisions


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

[Liver_Pooty]

Read on Twitter

Another wasted lottery pick. What a **** day to be a Hornets fan.

[JMAC3]

He isn’t worth 4.5 million? Really? Yet we pay Biz 17 million


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

[JMAC3]

I get if Kemba was wanting to leave to win or felt like franchise wasn’t best place for him. But when every decision the team makes is based on money they will never win.

Seems like Jordan is fine with just having an underwhelming rookie each year... won’t trade the pick to actually make the team better because he is too cheap to actually pay anyone.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

[Great]

They have to clean house and open space.
It’s the best way for the new regime players to take root.

Washington and Zeller at PF going forward.

[LofJ]

You guys are seriously criticizing the team for not paying Kaminsky? Paying mediocre players in the past is why the team is in such a bad situation.