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catch20two wrote:The starting lineup wasn’t playing bad with Lamb in it and honestly the overall team is playing some of the best basketball that 1st half of the season they’ve played in about a decade outside of the 2015-16 season.

Feels like a couple games under .500 at the ASB is pretty typical to me. Curious if the stats support that on the whole we've played better.

yosemiteben wrote:

catch20two wrote:The starting lineup wasn’t playing bad with Lamb in it and honestly the overall team is playing some of the best basketball that 1st half of the season they’ve played in about a decade outside of the 2015-16 season.

Feels like a couple games under .500 at the ASB is pretty typical to me. Curious if the stats support that on the whole we've played better.

Other than 2015-16 we’ve been several games under .500 rather than a couple lol. It’s a sad team. I hope one day you’ll understand our frustrations.

catch20two wrote:

yosemiteben wrote:

catch20two wrote:The starting lineup wasn’t playing bad with Lamb in it and honestly the overall team is playing some of the best basketball that 1st half of the season they’ve played in about a decade outside of the 2015-16 season.

Feels like a couple games under .500 at the ASB is pretty typical to me. Curious if the stats support that on the whole we've played better.

Other than 2015-16 we’ve been several games under .500 rather than a couple lol. It’s a sad team. I hope one day you’ll understand our frustrations.

I remain curious about the statistical difference between this team and past teams. Seems like the biggest difference is they suck on D and are better on O, but not sure there is a significant net difference.

Not sure why you don't think I find this team frustrating.

My thoughts are that the veterans on this team play just well enough from time to time that JB has an illusion that they will go on a run at any time and win a bunch of games. Most of us know that will not happen and until we are hopelessly out of the playoff race, the young guys (Monk, Bridges, Graham, Bacon) will not get much playing time and it will be no different than last year. Look at the veterans that JB depends on - Marv was a bust until one good year in Charlotte got him overpaid...Portland had no intention of resigning Batum and gave him away for Henderson/Vonleh and he had a decent contract year and got way overpaid. MKG is just a plain old bust as #2 draft pick and should be a hustling bench guy for a team with good shooters. CZ is pretty much the same as MKG a hustling bench type guy that can't shoot. Kemba has no choice but play hero ball at the end of close games and it appears he knows it but I am not sure JB gets it yet. At this point, JB is no better than Cliff and I wanted Cliff fired...smh

I want to like Borrego and think with seasoning he will be a good coach. But I can't watch a game ending like that BKN one where Cody Zeller is repeatedly getting switched onto an absolutely torrid DeAngelo Russell and not think that Borrego has a ways to go.

I think he is roughly the same level as Clifford, but the key is JB in his early 40's and Clifford is in his late 50's. JB still has a lot of room to grow, he should be at worst a top half HC IMO. We also dont have a JB/Mitch roster yet, this roster is still 90% Cliff and Cho.

I think if we can replace a few players with "Spurs-lite" players the team would be a lot better. By that i mean good IQ 2-way players who can shoot threes.

Obvious replacements are MKG, Tony and Monk. MKG has a role, but he is still a terrible 3pt shooter although i like that he takes 1-2 a game now. Tony is obviously a Spurs player, but he cant defend a paper bag. Same for Monk, who is also kind of dumb.

If we could find a few cheap Nics, i think the team would be a lot better. Maybe Denzel Valentine or Kyle Anderson

yosemiteben wrote:

catch20two wrote:

yosemiteben wrote:Feels like a couple games under .500 at the ASB is pretty typical to me. Curious if the stats support that on the whole we've played better.

Other than 2015-16 we’ve been several games under .500 rather than a couple lol. It’s a sad team. I hope one day you’ll understand our frustrations.

I remain curious about the statistical difference between this team and past teams. Seems like the biggest difference is they suck on D and are better on O, but not sure there is a significant net difference.

Not sure why you don't think I find this team frustrating.

I’m sure you’re frustrated with the lack of success and even more because you’ve optimistically agreed with a lot of the decisions.

My frustration is knowing that these decisions will fail us before having to wait for the outcome.

yosemiteben wrote:How is Batum on a dislike list while averaging 31 MPG, while MKG is a like despite only averaging 19 MPG?

Because I think he dislikes Lamb and Monk even more than he does Bats. And he's not about to play TP 31 MPG at PG/SG with Kemba the other SG/PG (although I think JB would like that). So he's painted into a corner.

And I feel that playing time doesn't = like/dislike. Impact does. I think that JB likes MKG's impact on the game the way he is being used. I also think JB likes his effort level.

Bats is more talented than MKG. Doesn't mean he is liked more.

Seems like a completely arbitrary list

You think I just randomly placed names into three lists? Thanks....

With the season coming to a close, I think it's safe to say that I've been thoroughly unimpressed by Borrego.

He doesn't have the best talent in the world, but it's on him when he consistently chooses to rely on relatively unproductive players over and over again.

He also can't seem to diagram any late game plays -- hell, and I'm just talking about getting the ball successfully inbounded.

He hasn't really done anything brilliant on the offensive or defensive end.

He seems to err on the offensive side of things, which I know is the "in" thing nowadays, but it's a pretty damn short list of players on this team that can produce enough offensively to outweigh a poor defensive showing. He doesn't seem to appreciate what guys like Biyombo and MKG can bring to the table, even despite their offensive shortcomings.

With as poorly as our division has played this year, I feel like there is no reason we shouldn't have been able to win it, which -- sad to say -- I believe would have been the first division championship in franchise history. We had the ASG here and everything was in place for a great opportunity for a winning, successful season, and it just seems like we blew it. This depressing season might even cost us our beloved franchise player.

As much as I hated Clifford, I feel like he could have gotten this team to the playoffs.

I don't think you fire Borrego or anything like that at this time, but he and his coaching staff needs to improve substantially.

W_HAMILTON wrote:With the season coming to a close, I think it's safe to say that I've been thoroughly unimpressed by Borrego.

He doesn't have the best talent in the world, but it's on him when he consistently chooses to rely on relatively unproductive players over and over again.

He also can't seem to diagram any late game plays -- hell, and I'm just talking about getting the ball successfully inbounded.

He hasn't really done anything brilliant on the offensive or defensive end.

He seems to err on the offensive side of things, which I know is the "in" thing nowadays, but it's a pretty damn short list of players on this team that can produce enough offensively to outweigh a poor defensive showing. He doesn't seem to appreciate what guys like Biyombo and MKG can bring to the table, even despite their offensive shortcomings.

With as poorly as our division has played this year, I feel like there is no reason we shouldn't have been able to win it, which -- sad to say -- I believe would have been the first division championship in franchise history. We had the ASG here and everything was in place for a great opportunity for a winning, successful season, and it just seems like we blew it. This depressing season might even cost us our beloved franchise player.

As much as I hated Clifford, I feel like he could have gotten this team to the playoffs.

I don't think you fire Borrego or anything like that at this time, but he and his coaching staff needs to improve substantially.

Sounds like you just described Clifford except the part about erring on the side of offense, as where Clifford believed defense would carry the team, but still didn't appreciate guys like Biyombo. Neither coach had the talent, and that is ultimately where the problem lies.

stinger14 wrote:Sounds like you just described Clifford except the part about erring on the side of offense, as where Clifford believed defense would carry the team, but still didn't appreciate guys like Biyombo. Neither coach had the talent, and that is ultimately where the problem lies.

Yes, I actually think they are similar in many ways.

But I disagree about the talent. This team is probably better talent-wise than the one that made the playoffs with 48 wins and the same record as the third seed and took Miami to seven games just a few years ago.

This team as currently constructed is good enough talent-wise to make the playoffs in the Eastern Conference.

Zeller regressing HARD this year had a lot to do with things too man.... I don't know.

I am not that high on Borrego but I wouldn't say Cliff was better. Cliffs lack of player development was my biggest gripe with him. Borrego is not shy about going deep into the bench.

W_HAMILTON wrote:

stinger14 wrote:Sounds like you just described Clifford except the part about erring on the side of offense, as where Clifford believed defense would carry the team, but still didn't appreciate guys like Biyombo. Neither coach had the talent, and that is ultimately where the problem lies.

Yes, I actually think they are similar in many ways.

But I disagree about the talent. This team is probably better talent-wise than the one that made the playoffs with 48 wins and the same record as the third seed and took Miami to seven games just a few years ago.

This team as currently constructed is good enough talent-wise to make the playoffs in the Eastern Conference.

But Clifford couldn't take this team to the playoffs last year either, and he didn't do anything to help the young guys. And though he is a drama king, Dwight gave this team much more production than any center currently on the roster.

I am glad that Clifford's boy Dwight is gone too

JB’s biggest issue is he can’t find the right combination and then stick to it. He will find something, like he did with Miles and Bacon starting and then abandon ship at the first sign of struggles.

That being said, it’s relatively the same exact roster the last three years and surprise - the same exact results. So until we change the roster dramatically, I expect the results to remain the same.

Really do not believe that any coach could win with this team as currently constructed. Next year 3 of the bad contracts (Marv, Biz, and Mkg) will be expiring. Maybe one or two of them can be traded at the trade deadline but hopefully for not another bad contract. This will give us about 45 million in cap space and the rebuild can start. CZ is probably usable but Batum should be parked or traded for someone like Parsons. l have mixed emotions on whether to resign Kemba if he is even willing. It would have to be for less than the max IMO. I think Mitch can fix this situation if given the time and MJ is patient. Unfortunately there will be no quick fix and Mitch knows that.

W_HAMILTON wrote:As much as I hated Clifford, I feel like he could have gotten this team to the playoffs.

I don't remember seeing the body language of the players under Clifford that I do now.

In fact, under Clifford we were said to have one of the best, if not THE best, locker room cultures in the league.

And now you hear of how the Orlando team has bonded.

It starts at the top and I think a lot of people overlooked the cultural impact a guy like Clifford has and how that translates to a more cohesive playing group.

Talent will get you wins, but you need talent and culture to experience longevity in success.

Cliff would not have gotten this group to the playoffs. This is basically the same group as last year and has lost games in the very same way as last year (choke in the 4th). Culture didn't get us into the playoffs in 2018 and it would not have gotten us anything but a slightly more cheerful 10th place finish in 2019. I agree the body language (Kemba especially) has been much worse lately but let's not confuse happiness with success. Cliff may have smoothed over a few things but at the end of the day we'd be picking 12th in the draft because of a late push that got us just outside of the playoff picture. I'm definitely not yet at the stage where I look back fondly on Cliff, he had serious limitations of his own and did not have a track record of turning our mediocrity into playoff quality basketball.

Until the roster changes or one of the young guys really breaks out the results won't be any different regardless of coaching. Borrego is probably an okay coach, but to be honest I can't judge him one way or the other because our roster is only capable of 35-38 wins and we're on pace for 35-38 wins. The previous administration of Cho/Cliff locked this roster in until 2020, it is a very limited group that accomplished basically what they're capable of no more and no less.

I hope one of the youngsters really blows up over the summer so 2019-2020 can be a bit more exciting but my read on thing at the moment is we have at least one more season of purgatory left before the Borrego/Kupchak regime can even meaningfully put their stamp on things much less turn it around.

Hornet Mania wrote:Cliff would not have gotten this group to the playoffs. This is basically the same group as last year and has lost games in the very same way as last year (choke in the 4th).

Totally disagree.

Our back up PG play last year was terrible (MCW? Stone?). Parker has added some depth there, as has Graham.
Our bench lacked depth last year. We have greater depth this year.
Our rookie was a mess last year (still is this year). Our rookies both contribute this year.
Our starting center was a ball hogging mess last year. We have added depth and a full offseason and season of Willy this year.
Bacon wasn't ready last year but is impacting this year.

Sure, our core is the same (Kemba, Bats, Lamb, Marv, Cody) but I don't see this as basically the same group as last year at all.

I strongly feel Clifford would have had this team +.500 and playoff bound.

Heck, he's done that for Orlando - and they are arguably a less talented team than ours this year.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one BigSlam. I see it completely differently. Maybe I'm being negative but Cliff never struck me as exceptional, just competent. The factors you listed don't seem as if they'd have tipped the scales in an alternate timeline where Cliff gets extended.

-Our backup PG would probably still be MCW (current backup for the Magic)
-Our bench is only better because Parker/Youth/Lamb. Not convinced Parker is here or the young guns get minutes with Cliff. Lamb is probably still a starter and Miles stays on the bench all year, that swap was JB's best move of the year imo.
-Miles might play under Cliff, maybe. But he really began coming into his own about a week after being a starter, something that I am certain Cliff wouldn't try.
-Center is a disaster this year, probably even worse than last year due to Cody's regression. Willy is probably the worst one we have.
-Bacon might have still gotten his run the last few weeks due to Batum's illness, he was a non-factor for us up to that point. It's doubtful Cliff would have thrown him in the rotation earlier.

I also think Orlando arguably has more talent than we do aside from Kemba. Just marginally though, still not that impressive. Batum has been a massive negative all year, Marv tries hard but he's washed, Cody and MKG have regressed. I'm not convinced Pop could add many more wins, our roster is fundamentally flawed and our contracts are such that we're all but forced to give serious playing time to guys who drag us down.