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Not Van Damme: The James Borrego Thread

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Re: Not Van Damme: The James Borrego Thread 

Post#401 » by DY_nasty » Tue Jan 26, 2021 5:05 pm

I think we need to separate some of the roster issues from the coaching issues. While the roster issues are obvious, its important not to let them detract from the coaching ones.

The Thunder are a far better coached team than we are. And there is no way they've got more talent than us or anything close to our roster consistency either. There's so many little things going on that have nothing to do with the roster imbalance that all happen on a nightly basis. Let me ramble:

  • One night our second best scorer gets 2 shots in a whole half of basketball, the next he's completely out of control for 3 quarters and can't even get plays where he's put in advantageous position against a rookie PG known for bad defense.
  • We get our best pick setting big back - but he rarely if ever is used in a way where he effectively screens people off the ball which would be great in setting up Hayward early.
  • Devonte is regularly less-than-value-added with how he's allowed to toss out grenades at will and launch bad shots without so much as attempting to probe the defense.
  • We are allergic to the baseline.
  • We've replaced the early season over reliance on a switch-heavy defense from last year that doesn't compliment the roster to a zone heavy defense that is even worse.
  • We were able to trap effectively at half court last year but somehow that's morphed into a press that primarily gets thrown out when its clear that faith in our defense has waned for the night.
  • Players are not only put in bad positions where they can't succeed due to mismatches (our wings/guards get forced into guarding bigs far too often) but they're also put in situations where they're unable to make the most out of a gameplan due to the rotation (asking Miles to be some sort of passing facilitator when our offense lacks a general consistent motion so no passing lanes even exist in the first place ie again - we don't use the baseline enough for high post actions to carry the usual impact). It hurts their consistency. A lot.
  • We've opted for playing inconsistent wings/guards instead of the bigs - which I would understand if those wings/guards didn't further complicate an already friction filled rotation.
  • Lamelo gets put into the 3 guard rotation, but is somehow *not* the guy running it when both Graham and Rozier should obviously seem to be the scorers in that situation.
  • Not realizing or communicating we have fouls to give late and waiting too long for timeouts.
  • We've yet to adjust to teams forcing us into a bad predicaments with Biz (and now Cody.
  • We've yet to adjust to teams casually shootings 3s as our zone gets exploited.
  • We've yet to adjust to teams passing the ball one time and getting a straight line drive for their troubles.

And of course my latest grievance, how he's not consistent correcting/benching/encouraging players, how he keeps starters in games that are long over with (and I HOPE that isn't to keep these margins more pleasant than they actually are), and how he's slow to accept the necessity of long term coaching decisions (Ball and Hayward are playing together more now but we need way more packages there.... way more).

To top things off, this is a low expectation year and I think we're all on the same page with that.

But there are low expectations and bare, acceptable minimums as well. I don't mind an L. I do mind repeat Ls of the same kind.
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Re: Not Van Damme: The James Borrego Thread 

Post#402 » by SWedd523 » Tue Jan 26, 2021 9:51 pm

euphorbus wrote:
SWedd523 wrote:There's only so many different ways you can make soup before you realize that it just tastes like...


In that is the case, the Hornets are a lost cause for the next five years. Why bother to watch?

Or

treat them like what they are, which is a relatively low talent roster with horrible balance... And adjust your expectations accordingly.

We do, after all, live in the real world
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Re: Not Van Damme: The James Borrego Thread 

Post#403 » by Diop » Wed Jan 27, 2021 1:17 am

BigSlam wrote:
JB said the other day “you don’t know what you’ve got in players until you push them outside their comfort zones”.

That statement worried me.

Sometimes you just need to know and be content with a players strengths and allow the player to play to them.

if the year is for developing, then I don't have a problem with him trying this stuff.

I never expected us to win a lot this year though.
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Re: Not Van Damme: The James Borrego Thread 

Post#404 » by BigSlam » Wed Jan 27, 2021 3:16 am

Diop wrote:
BigSlam wrote:
JB said the other day “you don’t know what you’ve got in players until you push them outside their comfort zones”.

That statement worried me.

Sometimes you just need to know and be content with a players strengths and allow the player to play to them.

if the year is for developing, then I don't have a problem with him trying this stuff.

I never expected us to win a lot this year though.

If our players were already good at what they did then sure, push them outside their comfort zone and see if you can get more out of them.

But most of our players, in fact I’d say all but Hayward and Rozier, aren’t good at what they do.

So stop trying to make them something they’re not before allowing them to be what they are.
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Re: Not Van Damme: The James Borrego Thread 

Post#405 » by yosemiteben » Wed Jan 27, 2021 3:54 am

SWedd523 wrote:We do, after all, live in the real world

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Re: Not Van Damme: The James Borrego Thread 

Post#406 » by Diop » Wed Jan 27, 2021 5:31 am

BigSlam wrote:
Diop wrote:
BigSlam wrote:
JB said the other day “you don’t know what you’ve got in players until you push them outside their comfort zones”.

That statement worried me.

Sometimes you just need to know and be content with a players strengths and allow the player to play to them.

if the year is for developing, then I don't have a problem with him trying this stuff.

I never expected us to win a lot this year though.

If our players were already good at what they did then sure, push them outside their comfort zone and see if you can get more out of them.

But most of our players, in fact I’d say all but Hayward and Rozier, aren’t good at what they do.

So stop trying to make them something they’re not before allowing them to be what they are.

Yeah that’s fair
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Re: Not Van Damme: The James Borrego Thread 

Post#407 » by Chapelchilla » Wed Jan 27, 2021 3:37 pm

I thought we all knew this by now, as it is pretty easy to see -

We are not going to be a consistent winning team until we have 2 more pieces-
a big "above the rim" type center who can play defense, intimidate and catch/dunk lob passes.
a larger 2 guard who can play both ends of the floor.

Cody and Biz are fine as back ups, we need a true big man to win.
Terry, Monk, Devonte are all midget 2 guards or combo guys. None are starting 2 guards on a good team.

This year is an experiment to see what we have worth keeping. I would say that is Ball, Hayward, the Martins, Terry and PJ. Bridges and Devonte may be good at the right price. The rookie bigs maybe fine too. We have 3 good starters on the roster and 3 or 4 good bench guys. That's it. Borrego can't turn undersized 2 guards and well below average centers into elite winning players.

Enjoying the wins we do get thru hard work is the thing I like about the team this season but I am fine when they lose too. We need another good pick and FA acquisition after the season. Then we should be good enough and we can really judge Borrego based on having the pieces to win regularly. It's an ongoing process lol.
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Re: Not Van Damme: The James Borrego Thread 

Post#408 » by DY_nasty » Wed Jan 27, 2021 6:43 pm

most of my coaching complaints have nothing to do with the roster :/

hell, there's a way to stagger rozier/graham/ball better and get all those guys minutes. he's not dealing with the first guard heavy rotation of all time
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Re: Not Van Damme: The James Borrego Thread 

Post#409 » by DY_nasty » Wed Jan 27, 2021 8:09 pm

Read on Twitter


step 1 when talking about coaching:

accepting its okay to talk about it

pro answer by terry there but pride got nothing to do with guys being completely out of the play after a single pass. guys will have more pride in what they do when they know they're in a position to succeed and are expecting to do so.
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Re: Not Van Damme: The James Borrego Thread 

Post#410 » by Diop » Fri Jan 29, 2021 12:12 am

Read on Twitter


no changes to the starters for a bit longer
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Re: Not Van Damme: The James Borrego Thread 

Post#411 » by Liver_Pooty » Fri Jan 29, 2021 12:58 am

DY_nasty wrote:
Read on Twitter


step 1 when talking about coaching:

accepting its okay to talk about it

pro answer by terry there but pride got nothing to do with guys being completely out of the play after a single pass. guys will have more pride in what they do when they know they're in a position to succeed and are expecting to do so.


Teams are picking it apart because even below average NBA shooters can shoot out of a zone. Thats what he should have said anyway.
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Re: Not Van Damme: The James Borrego Thread 

Post#412 » by Diop » Sat Jan 30, 2021 3:09 am

Read on Twitter


3 guard lineup is probably staying for a bit
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Re: Not Van Damme: The James Borrego Thread 

Post#413 » by Snidely FC » Sat Jan 30, 2021 1:37 pm

Ashley at halftime of Indy game pressing Lamelo on how team got lead and how to keep it; Lamelo said energy and pace; he gets it does Borrego?
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Re: Not Van Damme: The James Borrego Thread 

Post#414 » by LofJ » Sat Jan 30, 2021 2:46 pm

Borrego's about face where he suddenly remembered that Monk is one of the few players we have that can put pressure on the rim almost certainly came from the front office. It's about time, Borrego doesn't have the track record to do 100% as he pleases when it comes to playing time.

If we're going to move forward as an organization (and by extension Borrego as a coach) we need to be adaptable. That means abandoning things that don't work (playing both Martin's and the zone) and committing to what does work (playing with pace and getting everyone involved).

More interventions backed up by data and less coddling players, especially ones that are older and should be mature enough to handle it.
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Re: Not Van Damme: The James Borrego Thread 

Post#415 » by BigSlam » Sat Jan 30, 2021 3:21 pm

I wonder what stood out to JB more last night:

A: The two baskets that Monk scored.

Or

B: The two careless and stupid things Monk did (dribbled with a wrap around behind his back and through his legs from behind and then messing up the open pass to Gordo on the fast break that cost us two easy baskets because Monk was hot dogging and trying to do too much when he didn’t need to?).
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Re: Not Van Damme: The James Borrego Thread 

Post#416 » by SWedd523 » Sat Jan 30, 2021 5:06 pm

LofJ wrote:Borrego's about face where he suddenly remembered that Monk is one of the few players we have that can put pressure on the rim almost certainly came from the front office. It's about time, Borrego doesn't have the track record to do 100% as he pleases when it comes to playing time.

If we're going to move forward as an organization (and by extension Borrego as a coach) we need to be adaptable. That means abandoning things that don't work (playing both Martin's and the zone) and committing to what does work (playing with pace and getting everyone involved).

More interventions backed up by data and less coddling players, especially ones that are older and should be mature enough to handle it.

Lots of narrative building. You don't have any idea whatsoever that it was directed by the FO. If anything, doing so would seem to go against how the FO operates.

I get we want to scapegoat guys but damn bro
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Re: Not Van Damme: The James Borrego Thread 

Post#417 » by yosemiteben » Sat Jan 30, 2021 6:22 pm

I'm real surprised how mad folks seem to be at JB. He's stuck with the zone longer than I expected, but honestly I never would have guessed it would have worked for any amount of time and so it surprised me when we employed it so successfully at the beginning. I understand trying to recapture that basic after shifting the rotation and I don't view it is a fireable offense.

None of his rotations have me very upset or seem to me like glaring mistakes.
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Re: Not Van Damme: The James Borrego Thread 

Post#418 » by DY_nasty » Sat Jan 30, 2021 6:36 pm

SWedd523 wrote:
LofJ wrote:Borrego's about face where he suddenly remembered that Monk is one of the few players we have that can put pressure on the rim almost certainly came from the front office. It's about time, Borrego doesn't have the track record to do 100% as he pleases when it comes to playing time.

If we're going to move forward as an organization (and by extension Borrego as a coach) we need to be adaptable. That means abandoning things that don't work (playing both Martin's and the zone) and committing to what does work (playing with pace and getting everyone involved).

More interventions backed up by data and less coddling players, especially ones that are older and should be mature enough to handle it.

Lots of narrative building. You don't have any idea whatsoever that it was directed by the FO. If anything, doing so would seem to go against how the FO operates.

I get we want to scapegoat guys but damn bro

our last two wins came from ridiculous stuff down the stretch. i don't get why JB is just not able to get criticized or held to even his own standards/reasoning
yosemiteben wrote:I'm real surprised how mad folks seem to be at JB. He's stuck with the zone longer than I expected, but honestly I never would have guessed it would have worked for any amount of time and so it surprised me when we employed it so successfully at the beginning. I understand trying to recapture that basic after shifting the rotation and I don't view it is a fireable offense.

None of his rotations have me very upset or seem to me like glaring mistakes.

cmon man lol
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Re: Not Van Damme: The James Borrego Thread 

Post#419 » by yosemiteben » Sat Jan 30, 2021 8:00 pm

Just how I feel. No one ever loves their team's rotation when they lose games.
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Re: Not Van Damme: The James Borrego Thread 

Post#420 » by DY_nasty » Sat Jan 30, 2021 8:14 pm

yosemiteben wrote:Just how I feel. No one ever loves their team's rotation when they lose games.

especially not when gimmick twinning lineups are playing a part in that?

there's not even anything inherently wrong with a ball/rozier/graham lineup either - but there is a problem with it when its lamelo of all people standing in the corner

hell, there's a place for a pj/miles frontcourt option too. but its not when neither of them have a chance of taking the pace back due to the physicality inside or when they're shooting so poorly that opposing bigs have no reason to follow them out to the perimeter

stuff like that falls firmly on the "coach can be better" side of things.

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