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Not Van Damme: The James Borrego Thread

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Re: Not Van Damme: The James Borrego Thread 

Post#441 » by SWedd523 » Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:02 pm

yosemiteben wrote:I don't really understand the "no feel for the game" take. We have been an excellent closing team this season.

I thought I saw somewhere that the Hornets were a top 5-10 team in the 4th Q?
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Re: Not Van Damme: The James Borrego Thread 

Post#442 » by yosemiteben » Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:14 pm

SWedd523 wrote:
yosemiteben wrote:I don't really understand the "no feel for the game" take. We have been an excellent closing team this season.

I thought I saw somewhere that the Hornets were a top 5-10 team in the 4th Q?

We have negative net ratings in Q1 and Q2 (-10 in Q2, 2nd worst in the league), and positive net ratings in Q3 and Q4. Our Q3 net rating is ranked 8th, and our Q4 net rating is ranked 10th.

Looking just by half, we have the 25th ranked net rating in the first half, and the 9th ranked net rating in the second half.

For me this blows the "Borrego doesn't adjust" narrative out of the water, since we routinely perform better in the second half of games.
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Re: Not Van Damme: The James Borrego Thread 

Post#443 » by SWedd523 » Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:54 pm

I'm sure the goalposts will be moved on that

"Yeah but that means his starting lineups suck" or something to fit a narrative by folks who simply don't like Borrego
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Re: Not Van Damme: The James Borrego Thread 

Post#444 » by James Gatz » Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:56 pm

JB is clearly a solid coach and has done a good job with player development. He's not Spo, Pop, etc but I'm glad to have him.
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Re: Not Van Damme: The James Borrego Thread 

Post#445 » by BigSlam » Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:05 pm

SWedd523 wrote:I'm sure the goalposts will be moved on that

"Yeah but that means his starting lineups suck" or something to fit a narrative by folks who simply don't like Borrego

Teams build up a lead against us in the first half and then that enables them to take their foot off the gas in the 2nd half and still beat us.

Nailed it.
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Re: Not Van Damme: The James Borrego Thread 

Post#446 » by DY_nasty » Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:21 pm

yosemiteben wrote:I don't really understand the "no feel for the game" take. We have been an excellent closing team this season.

because rozier is unreal and ball is too young to know when the door is shut. we're not slicing people up with crisp execution late - our comebacks are from teams going to sleep.

i don't like this thing where we give borrego all the credit for good things but none for the bad. dude couldn't even sub his own player out properly last night :lol:
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Re: Not Van Damme: The James Borrego Thread 

Post#447 » by yosemiteben » Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:41 pm

DY_nasty wrote:
yosemiteben wrote:I don't really understand the "no feel for the game" take. We have been an excellent closing team this season.

because rozier is unreal and ball is too young to know when the door is shut. we're not slicing people up with crisp execution late - our comebacks are from teams going to sleep.

This seems like a pretty weak critique to me.

"Coach doesn't get credit for us playing better in the second half because other teams just let us score."

Really?
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Re: Not Van Damme: The James Borrego Thread 

Post#448 » by DY_nasty » Tue Feb 23, 2021 8:19 pm

yosemiteben wrote:
DY_nasty wrote:
yosemiteben wrote:I don't really understand the "no feel for the game" take. We have been an excellent closing team this season.

because rozier is unreal and ball is too young to know when the door is shut. we're not slicing people up with crisp execution late - our comebacks are from teams going to sleep.

This seems like a pretty weak critique to me.

"Coach doesn't get credit for us playing better in the second half because other teams just let us score."

Really?

?

its kind of a trend and goes back to the same stuff i was talking about when i mentioned our defensive ratings being skewed more than other squads. this team gets slapped hard a LOT - and because we're so white flag averse, we bring games closer than they have any right to be as other clubs pack it in. this isn't some new hot take... philly players were mad they had to put their shoes back on ffs :lol:

and i gave an example of how borrego goes full klutz every other game too with that substitution gag routine that wouldn't even happen in a middle school game. the guy forgets he has timeouts, doesn't instruct our guys to foul when they should, ices his own players, etc. and this is before even mentioning how dumb the dual pg stuff is, the defense that gets exploited whether the team is good or playing without a starting caliber PG, or the other big stuff.

i'm not gonna ignore those things and give borrego credit for guys that have experience outside of our organization or are new playing extremely well despite that. borrego isn't even meeting the standards that he's had in previous seasons. and if guys can't at least acknowledge that especially then they've either got really short memories or are just happy that borrego meets the requirement of not being cliff.
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Re: Not Van Damme: The James Borrego Thread 

Post#449 » by Braggins » Tue Feb 23, 2021 8:20 pm

I think Borrego has done a good job with rotations once he freed Monk. It may have taken a bit longer than I'd like, but shortened training camp and preseason is a good excuse to not have everything figured out right away and he has at least been way faster than Clifford was at figuring things out. Usually took him like 2 years just to figure out what position a player was.

I'm pro Borrego atm. Jury is still out and he needs to improve, but hes still one of the younger coaches in the league and I think he gets it and I love the style hes gotten them to play.

Edit: He occasionally throws out some junk lineups like Rozier/Monk/Martin2/Miles/Biz. Occasionally he has had injury excuse, but ive seen him use lineups like that a few times when there was no reason to and it obviously looked bad. I think hes on the right track overall, though.
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Re: Not Van Damme: The James Borrego Thread 

Post#450 » by DY_nasty » Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:06 pm

i like borrego too

but he is not a first year coach. some of this stuff should've been common sense to him years ago
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Re: Not Van Damme: The James Borrego Thread 

Post#451 » by yosemiteben » Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:21 pm

DY_nasty wrote:its kind of a trend and goes back to the same stuff i was talking about when i mentioned our defensive ratings being skewed more than other squads. this team gets slapped hard a LOT - and because we're so white flag averse, we bring games closer than they have any right to be as other clubs pack it in. this isn't some new hot take... philly players were mad they had to put their shoes back on ffs :lol:

Naw, it just feels like a super weak self-validating argument to me. Bring some stats. Show me how we have greater than average point differentials at half, etc., and I'll give you some credit, but this just sounds weak.

You're talking like we're constantly getting blown out and the second half is just play time, but we're right at .500 for the season so that's not what's going on.

Let's put some meat on the bones - our net rating is -6 in the first half. Are you really saying that teams are coasting because they're up 6, and that's why our second half performance is better?

It's just not a very good argument. If it was, then you'd expect to see a bunch of crappy teams with superior second half net ratings. The teams with better second half net ratings are Utah, GSW, MIL, LAC, PHX, LAL, CHI, and IND. The teams right behind us in second half net rating are BRK, TOR, PHI, and POR.

So of the top 13 teams in second half net rating, only one is not a top 8 team in their conference - us. Yet your argument is the good teams coast, and that's why a crappy team can have a better second half net rating? Sure.
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Re: Not Van Damme: The James Borrego Thread 

Post#452 » by CuseMayne » Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:28 pm

yosemiteben wrote:I don't really understand the "no feel for the game" take. We have been an excellent closing team this season.


Yeah that's been a nice surprise this season, we have been finishing well more often than not. I'm more frustrated with the very rigid rotations/not recognizing momentum/sometimes even halting our own momentum by not riding certain players when they start off hot.

As far as the defense, especially in the case of last night vs the Jazz, yes we were definitely outmatched and it certainly was a pick your poison scenario. But for the sake of our pride even, at some point we had to load the 3 point line to stop the countless wide open 3s. I mean they broke their own franchise record for 3PM each time they played us this year. Let Gobert beat us! He had FOUR field goal attempts and 10 points. If you look at that vs the blistering #s from 3 they put up, wouldn't it make some sort of sense to make any sort of in game adjustment, even if the game's nearly out of hand? Even for the sake of acknowledging that that's how we're getting embarrassed off the court? Just frustrating man.
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Re: Not Van Damme: The James Borrego Thread 

Post#453 » by CuseMayne » Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:41 pm

And FWIW I still am rooting for and like JB. Just feels like there's a consistent amount of head scratching decisions in game. This is all purely anecdotal so take it all with a grain of salt, and let's hope he grows as a coach just like our young guys!
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Re: Not Van Damme: The James Borrego Thread 

Post#454 » by euphorbus » Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:57 pm

CuseMayne wrote:Just frustrating man.


It sure as heck was frustrating to watch. Even a good high school coach would have come up with a decent adjustment or two, probably before the game started.
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Re: Not Van Damme: The James Borrego Thread 

Post#455 » by Hornet Mania » Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:00 pm

CuseMayne wrote:And FWIW I still am rooting for and like JB. Just feels like there's a consistent amount of head scratching decisions in game. This is all purely anecdotal so take it all with a grain of salt, and let's hope he grows as a coach just like our young guys!


This is where I'm at too. I don't want JB canned, I think he does some good things for us, but giving up the most wide-open 3s in the NBA by a good margin cannot continue if we hope to be a serious team in the future.

The league is moving more and more towards the deep ball so giving up a lot of uncontested chances is just asking for trouble. It may not be fixable this season with the abbreviated schedule and few practices but we have to address the issue asap to move up a tier.

Unless I am mistaken next year is the final year of JB's contract. At this point I'm content to ride it out in 20-21, see what adjustments are made in the summer, and then either extend him midway through 21-22 or potentially let him walk depending on the results over the next 18 months.
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Re: Not Van Damme: The James Borrego Thread 

Post#456 » by fatlever » Tue Mar 2, 2021 4:59 pm

I have no idea if JB is the correct coach to take this team forward to another level. I will say that I love his offensive philosophy of ball movement. It's fun to watch. Defensively it's a bit of a train wreck, which could be Personnel or scheme or both. That being said, I would probably rank him as my third favorite Hornets coach of all-time only behind Allan Bristow and Dave Cowens

1. Allan Bristow
2. Dave Cowens
3. James Borrego
4. Bernie Bickerstaff
5. Paul Silas #1
6. Steve Clifford
7. Mike Dunlap
8. Gene Littles
9. Dick Harter
10. Paul Silas #2



11. Sam Vincent








12. Larry Brown

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Re: Not Van Damme: The James Borrego Thread 

Post#457 » by Snidely FC » Sat Mar 20, 2021 1:34 pm

Zach Lowe on Borrego's guard dilemma:
It will be interesting to see how James Borrego, Charlotte's coach, sorts things with Devonte' Graham back and Malik Monk entrenched in the rotation. Charlotte has four ball-handling guards now in Graham, Monk, LaMelo Ball, and Terry Rozier. That should in theory open up more minutes for Gordon Hayward at power forward -- where he could set more screens -- depending on whether Charlotte acquires another big.

Hayward has logged only 42 minutes with the Ball/Rozier/Graham trio, per NBA.com.

Also: Borrego has yet to play the lineup of Bridges, Monk, Ball, Rozier, and Graham -- jersey numbers 0, 1, 2, 3, and 4. The world is waiting!
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Re: Not Van Damme: The James Borrego Thread 

Post#458 » by KEMBAtheMETEOR » Sat Mar 20, 2021 5:44 pm

This isn't a dilemma imo. As long as this is our roster, we should be playing small and fast. LaMelo should be playing more with two other guards. The guards and Hayward is pretty much where all our offense comes from. I'm done with seeing the Martins attempting to play basketball and Biz still looking like 20-year-old Biz on offense. We already suck on defense, our only real strategy is hoping the opposition misses 3s... let's put our best offensive players on the floor and do what we can with that.

The minutes aren't a problem. Until we trade for a center or JB gets enough confidence in one of the C rookies, just roll with the small ball rotation.

C - PJ (24mpg) / Zeller (24mpg)
PF - Hayward (16mpg) / Miles (24mpg) / PJ (8mpg)
SF - LaMelo (32mpg) / Hayward (16mpg)
SG - Rozier (32mpg) / Monk (16mpg)
PG - Graham (32mpg) / Monk (16mpg - Melo has to be on the court for these minutes)

You can blame Kupchak for the awful roster construction but I believe that's our best rotation against anybody without a dominant star center (in which case Zeller basically has to start because well, we have nobody else). Give Miles or Zeller extra minutes and shift everyone down a spot if Monk or Devonte' is struggling too hard with their shots that night.
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Re: Not Van Damme: The James Borrego Thread 

Post#459 » by DY_nasty » Sat Mar 20, 2021 6:24 pm

if anything this 3 graham/rozier/ball stuff needs to just go in the trash

borrego has shown time and time again he can't get guys on the same page and make sure the ball gets to guys that need it. whether its rozier and graham passing the ball to each other while hayward is waiting around doing nothing or someone other than lamelo is bringing the ball up and forcing him into the shame corner.

im not stuck on minutes so much as rotations and matchups
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Re: Not Van Damme: The James Borrego Thread 

Post#460 » by yosemiteben » Sat Mar 20, 2021 7:58 pm

DY_nasty wrote:borrego has shown time and time again he can't get guys on the same page and make sure the ball gets to guys that need it.

Not sure how this squares with us posting ungodly clutch numbers.

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