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Not Van Damme: The James Borrego Thread

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Re: Not Van Damme: The James Borrego Thread 

Post#461 » by DY_nasty » Sat Mar 20, 2021 8:15 pm

yosemiteben wrote:
DY_nasty wrote:borrego has shown time and time again he can't get guys on the same page and make sure the ball gets to guys that need it.

Not sure how this squares with us posting ungodly clutch numbers.

are we really gonna pretend that borrego is drawing up these late terry buckets? :lol: he's telling lamelo go out there and foul that sac player on the drive so we can get this comeback started? one of the biggest benefits we've seen to our late game changes has been us being able to benefit from the bonus

his crutch graham is the antithesis of that

all these comeback wins are cute but they're not sustainable and more times than not we shouldn't even be down as much as we are going into those stretches. he's taken us out of winnable situations more than he's put us into them with his rotations and priorities.
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Re: Not Van Damme: The James Borrego Thread 

Post#462 » by yosemiteben » Sat Mar 20, 2021 8:29 pm

DY_nasty wrote:
yosemiteben wrote:
DY_nasty wrote:borrego has shown time and time again he can't get guys on the same page and make sure the ball gets to guys that need it.

Not sure how this squares with us posting ungodly clutch numbers.

are we really gonna pretend that borrego is drawing up these late terry buckets? :lol: he's telling lamelo go out there and foul that sac player on the drive so we can get this comeback started? one of the biggest benefits we've seen to our late game changes has been us being able to benefit from the bonus

his crutch graham is the antithesis of that

all these comeback wins are cute but they're not sustainable and more times than not we shouldn't even be down as much as we are going into those stretches. he's taken us out of winnable situations more than he's put us into them with his rotations and priorities.

I can't think of a better counterpoint to you saying Borrego can't get the ball in the hands of difference makers when it matters than our clutch numbers.

Saying "lol he doesn't get credit for doing the thing I say he sucks at" or "we wouldn't need to do that if he was a better coach" isn't much of a rebuttal.
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Re: Not Van Damme: The James Borrego Thread 

Post#463 » by DY_nasty » Sat Mar 20, 2021 10:30 pm

yosemiteben wrote:
DY_nasty wrote:
yosemiteben wrote:Not sure how this squares with us posting ungodly clutch numbers.

are we really gonna pretend that borrego is drawing up these late terry buckets? :lol: he's telling lamelo go out there and foul that sac player on the drive so we can get this comeback started? one of the biggest benefits we've seen to our late game changes has been us being able to benefit from the bonus

his crutch graham is the antithesis of that

all these comeback wins are cute but they're not sustainable and more times than not we shouldn't even be down as much as we are going into those stretches. he's taken us out of winnable situations more than he's put us into them with his rotations and priorities.

I can't think of a better counterpoint to you saying Borrego can't get the ball in the hands of difference makers when it matters than our clutch numbers.

Saying "lol he doesn't get credit for doing the thing I say he sucks at" or "we wouldn't need to do that if he was a better coach" isn't much of a rebuttal.

okay so when we're down all game against one of the worst defenses in the league its just no big deal ie not borrego but when we come back its not a player being lights out and taking matters into his own hands... its all borrego? he's not the one shooting over two defenders in traffic

there was a time when borrego was legit calling full court plays that freed up catch and shoot opportunities off of a full sprint. late game playcalling like devonte's big shot against indiana that we again repeated against NY not long after. these are NOT those kinds of situations at all and trying to lump them together is straight up dishonest. if you can't acknowledge that much, the changes between borrego in previous years and what he's shown this year, then let everyone know lol

again, multiple instances where a guy is on fire or making an impact through the game's 2nd and 3rd stretches only to get benched indefinitely while the team searches for what that player was bringing before and leads get out of hand - then our team makes things as close as they can in the forth yet again. bone headed rotation decisions that hand out double digit runs the other team with no timeouts to even slow their momentum. still happening...

except the lead is 10+ instead of something manageable. this isn't new. the margins are because we weren't irrationally dedicating a dozen shots a night to one of the worst 20+% USG shooters in the league.

and that's something i've been repeating for months now too lol. first people were saying that our defense isn't horrific because of drtg numbers ( :roll: ) then we're signing off on borrego's 'lack of effort' remarks like that makes any sense.
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Re: Not Van Damme: The James Borrego Thread 

Post#464 » by DY_nasty » Sat Mar 20, 2021 11:09 pm

fun fact about our offense. biyombo is #21 in paint touches per game

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/paint-touch/?sort=PAINT_TOUCHES&dir=1

that's above jokic, vucevic, randle and obviously our own pj lol....that's a monstrous statement at how easy it is for the ball to get forced to one of the most inept players in the league routinely AND how we're generally okay with it

like clearly what we do late game when our guys are desperate for the win and what we do the majority of the rest of the game are not the same.

dive in. graham gets more normal touches than jamal murray, kemba, and lavine too. i really think its normalized how off the wall what we do in charlotte is.
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Re: Not Van Damme: The James Borrego Thread 

Post#465 » by yosemiteben » Sat Mar 20, 2021 11:52 pm

How good do you think this team is? I think we've over performed relative to the talent on this team, and I give JB credit for that. You seem to be acting like he's holding us back.

Do you think we're a top 4 team in the East without JB? To me it seems like you're talking like we're better than we are.
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Re: Not Van Damme: The James Borrego Thread 

Post#466 » by DY_nasty » Sun Mar 21, 2021 2:12 am

yosemiteben wrote:How good do you think this team is? I think we've over performed relative to the talent on this team, and I give JB credit for that. You seem to be acting like he's holding us back.

Do you think we're a top 4 team in the East without JB? To me it seems like you're talking like we're better than we are.

that's a wholesale dismissal of the stuff i'm talking about and wildly reductive take on the types of problems im highlighting....

whether the team is overly talented or not, there's never gonna be a situation where these tendencies would be okay. even if we had a league average center, our zone defense would be porous and exploited regularly. even if we had consistent shooters, our lack of baseline action would hold them back.

i've said the team has been overachieving the past two years anyways
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Re: Not Van Damme: The James Borrego Thread 

Post#467 » by yosemiteben » Sun Mar 21, 2021 2:19 am

I think the stuff you're talking about doesn't make much sense. We have a ball movement oriented offense, something I see as a good thing. When we need buckets in crunch time, we get the ball in the hands of our playmakers. I don't see anything wrong with our offensive philosophy, and I don't think JB is holding it back.

Your complaints about the rotation just don't resonate with me at all.
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Re: Not Van Damme: The James Borrego Thread 

Post#468 » by euphorbus » Sun Mar 21, 2021 4:30 am

Coach Borrego needs to go now. Tonight.

Too many basketball, soccer, and especially football coaches, at all levels, care more about winning one stupid game than taking care of their players. Coach Borrego is one. Freaking idiot.
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Re: Not Van Damme: The James Borrego Thread 

Post#469 » by DY_nasty » Sun Mar 21, 2021 4:34 am

sooo

we got a ball movement oriented offense..... where biyombo gets early touches in sets to start a game and a high usage volume shooting guard who doesn't drive getting priority with the ball no matter how the nights going. that's just not smart ball whether we're winning or losing by 30.

somehow terry gets a single shot below the 3pt line tonight and our best offensive stretch was lamelo hero ball

it doesn't add up man. its not efficient and the adjustments just don't seem to happen. habits don't get corrected on the spot. etc

still need you to explain why we got pj *who rolled in his ankle tonight* in a game that's clearly over while PG and kawhi are icing up

like come on we got lamelo in late in this game after multiple looks at his wrist when he let the lakers game get completely out of reach with him on the bench?

i don't care about being right or wrong on the internet dude. this is all nonsense. playing hurt guys the way he did when the game was over?

no. :lol:
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Re: Not Van Damme: The James Borrego Thread 

Post#470 » by CuseMayne » Sun Mar 21, 2021 11:14 am

DY_nasty wrote:sooo

we got a ball movement oriented offense..... where biyombo gets early touches in sets to start a game and a high usage volume shooting guard who doesn't drive getting priority with the ball no matter how the nights going. that's just not smart ball whether we're winning or losing by 30.

somehow terry gets a single shot below the 3pt line tonight and our best offensive stretch was lamelo hero ball

it doesn't add up man. its not efficient and the adjustments just don't seem to happen. habits don't get corrected on the spot. etc

still need you to explain why we got pj *who rolled in his ankle tonight* in a game that's clearly over while PG and kawhi are icing up

like come on we got lamelo in late in this game after multiple looks at his wrist when he let the lakers game get completely out of reach with him on the bench?

i don't care about being right or wrong on the internet dude. this is all nonsense. playing hurt guys the way he did when the game was over?

no. :lol:


Whole lotta this. JB really lost me tonight until further notice. Having Melo and PJ in down 25+ late in the 3rd Q with both getting hurt in-game is dispicable...not to mention the very next game after Melo doesn't play from 7-1:43 in the 4th vs the Lakers??!! It's honestly impressive how wide ranging and bone headed those 2 mistakes are in a 2 game window. So so so much Biz that it's just a pure joke at this point. Why wouldn't he just play the rookies??? Either they're actually worth a damn, or Kupchak will see we need to make some sort of move! I could go on for hours at this point but clearly all of the points DY made above can't really be disputed...
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Re: Not Van Damme: The James Borrego Thread 

Post#471 » by BigSlam » Sun Mar 21, 2021 2:06 pm

DY_nasty wrote:still need you to explain why we got pj *who rolled in his ankle tonight* in a game that's clearly over while PG and kawhi are icing up

Our guys are not George or Leonard level players.

Our guys need as many reps as possible. I wouldn’t be sitting them in blow outs. At all.

They need all the playing time they can get IMO.
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Re: Not Van Damme: The James Borrego Thread 

Post#472 » by KembaWalker » Sun Mar 21, 2021 2:10 pm

not that extra reps in this system are worth a damn. LaMelo is looking less and less dynamic the more reps he gets in these sets.
they dont work and nobody gets any better performing them over and over and over
they get worse
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Re: Not Van Damme: The James Borrego Thread 

Post#473 » by yosemiteben » Sun Mar 21, 2021 2:28 pm

DY_nasty wrote:we got a ball movement oriented offense..... where biyombo gets early touches in sets to start a game and a high usage volume shooting guard who doesn't drive getting priority with the ball no matter how the nights going. that's just not smart ball whether we're winning or losing by 30.

somehow terry gets a single shot below the 3pt line tonight and our best offensive stretch was lamelo hero ball

This is so random.

Yes, we are a ball movement oriented offense. We're third in the league in assist %, we've been top 5 all season. Do you think that's a bad thing?

We move the ball, and sometimes Biz gets it. Clearly JB isn't a Biz homer but he's not gonna say don't give Biz the ball or change the offense.

Graham isn't high usage, he's 5th on the team in usage and has less than 20% USG for the year. By any definition that's not high usage. Coincidentally he's also got the highest net rating on the team by a healthy margin, which I suspect is a big part of the reason JB keeps trying to find him minutes.

The stuff about Melo and PJ is obviously not related to offense and is really a separate discussion.
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Re: Not Van Damme: The James Borrego Thread 

Post#474 » by euphorbus » Sun Mar 21, 2021 6:47 pm

I just finished watching Loyola Chicago take down Illinois. What a beautifully coached basketball team! With all the one-and-dones at the major programs, including Carolina and Duke, I had almost forgotten what really good teamwork looks like.

The Hornets, in comparison, look like they barely coexist on the same court. And even when they do what the coaches ask and plan for, it's often the wrong strategy, like leaving shooters wide open on the weak side corner. I get that this is a young team, but they play four games a week. Is it too much to ask of a professional basketball team that they play like one? I think not. This is a poorly coached squad, regardless of the development that we see in individual players.
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Re: Not Van Damme: The James Borrego Thread 

Post#475 » by SWedd523 » Sun Mar 21, 2021 7:23 pm

The team has been hovering at +/- .500 pretty much all season.

That's a massive accomplishment and much quicker rise to respectability than anyone expected. Especially with the best guard and big from last year seeing extended injury time (and the best wing on the roster this season having injury issues). It's being deliberately obtuse at best to say the coaching isn't a positive contributor, unless you folks think the team is a top 4 in the East talent and Borrego is costing them wins?

Threads like this are always trash because dudes go AWOL when things are going well and they're winning then come scraping back whenever the pendulum swings the other direction.
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Re: Not Van Damme: The James Borrego Thread 

Post#476 » by Braggins » Sun Mar 21, 2021 9:31 pm

yosemiteben wrote:Graham isn't high usage, he's 5th on the team in usage and has less than 20% USG for the year. By any definition that's not high usage. Coincidentally he's also got the highest net rating on the team by a healthy margin, which I suspect is a big part of the reason JB keeps trying to find him minutes.

Devonte is averaging 30.2 mpg and has a USG% of 19.7 this season. Among players averaging 30+ mpg with a USG% of 19.5+, Devonte ranks 64/73 in eFG% and 65/73 in TS%. If you expand to players averaging 20+ mpg, then he ranks 99/122 in eFG% and 100/122 in TS%.

It looks even worse if you go by touches, which gives a better idea of how much we've ran things through Devonte this year than USG%. He ranks 37th in the league in touches, which is 2nd on the team and just slightly less than LaMelo. Among the top 50 in the league in touches he ranks 50/50 in FG%, 44/50 in eFG%, and 46/50 in TS%.

Its not even like hes in a slump or something. Relative to his career percentages hes -1.2% fg%, equal in eFG%, and -0.2% ts%. I don't understand how he has built such a strong reputation with some people and its hard to see how he hasn't had one of the least justifiable roles of anyone in the league this season.
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Re: Not Van Damme: The James Borrego Thread 

Post#477 » by DY_nasty » Sun Mar 21, 2021 11:48 pm

BigSlam wrote:
DY_nasty wrote:still need you to explain why we got pj *who rolled in his ankle tonight* in a game that's clearly over while PG and kawhi are icing up

Our guys are not George or Leonard level players.

Our guys need as many reps as possible. I wouldn’t be sitting them in blow outs. At all.

They need all the playing time they can get IMO.

on a bad ankle?

PJ missing time hurt. So he rolls his ankle in a game - and we keep playing him way after the game is out of reach.

those aren't good reps. that's bad management.
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Re: Not Van Damme: The James Borrego Thread 

Post#478 » by DY_nasty » Sun Mar 21, 2021 11:49 pm

SWedd523 wrote:The team has been hovering at +/- .500 pretty much all season.

That's a massive accomplishment and much quicker rise to respectability than anyone expected. Especially with the best guard and big from last year seeing extended injury time (and the best wing on the roster this season having injury issues). It's being deliberately obtuse at best to say the coaching isn't a positive contributor, unless you folks think the team is a top 4 in the East talent and Borrego is costing them wins?

Threads like this are always trash because dudes go AWOL when things are going well and they're winning then come scraping back whenever the pendulum swings the other direction.

lol i've been saying the exact same things since week 2
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Re: Not Van Damme: The James Borrego Thread 

Post#479 » by yosemiteben » Mon Mar 22, 2021 12:37 am

Braggins wrote:
yosemiteben wrote:Graham isn't high usage, he's 5th on the team in usage and has less than 20% USG for the year. By any definition that's not high usage. Coincidentally he's also got the highest net rating on the team by a healthy margin, which I suspect is a big part of the reason JB keeps trying to find him minutes.

Devonte is averaging 30.2 mpg and has a USG% of 19.7 this season. Among players averaging 30+ mpg with a USG% of 19.5+, Devonte ranks 64/73 in eFG% and 65/73 in TS%. If you expand to players averaging 20+ mpg, then he ranks 99/122 in eFG% and 100/122 in TS%.

It looks even worse if you go by touches, which gives a better idea of how much we've ran things through Devonte this year than USG%. He ranks 37th in the league in touches, which is 2nd on the team and just slightly less than LaMelo. Among the top 50 in the league in touches he ranks 50/50 in FG%, 44/50 in eFG%, and 46/50 in TS%.

Its not even like hes in a slump or something. Relative to his career percentages hes -1.2% fg%, equal in eFG%, and -0.2% ts%. I don't understand how he has built such a strong reputation with some people and its hard to see how he hasn't had one of the least justifiable roles of anyone in the league this season.

None of that shows him to be high usage. Yeah, his shooting efficiency has been awful this year and wasn't that great last year. No argument from me there.

And judging the PG in a ball movement heavy offense by # of touches seems pretty suspect, not sure what that is supposed to teach us.
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Re: Not Van Damme: The James Borrego Thread 

Post#480 » by DY_nasty » Mon Mar 22, 2021 12:53 am

usage is a metric. its not a turn of phrase

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