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Birdland Presents - The Miles Bridges Thread

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Re: Birdland Presents - The Miles Bridges Thread 

Post#741 » by DY_nasty » Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:24 pm

JMAC3 wrote:I know I am beating a dead horse here but go team by team and look at what guys who play 25-30 minutes a night for nba teams put up for stats/averages.

Royce O’Neal plays 29 mins and avg 6.3 ppg
Joe ingles plays 33 mins avg 9.8 ppg
OG plays 30 mins avg 10.6 ppg
Josh Okogie 25 mins avg 8.6 ppg
Marcus Morris 29 mins avg 10.1 ppg
Mikal Bridges 28 mins avg 9.1 ppg
Daniel house 30 mins avg 10.5 ppg
Tony Snell 28 mins 8 ppg
Cedi Osman 30 mins 11 ppg
Jon Issac 29 mins 11.9 ppg
Dorian Finney Smith 30 mins 9.5 pp
Josh Hart 27 mins 10.1 ppg

Miles Bridges 30 mins 13 ppg

I know ppg isn’t the best stat, but I’m just showing what type of nba players get 30 mins a game in the league on the wing. You really think Bridges is failing putting up these stats?

Oh and he is 22 years old compared to a lot of these guys in their NBA prime

you looked at none of those links huh :/

those sites i posted went into detail regarding how basic box score averages don't tell a full story. there are guys with much less time on the court and worse numbers than bridges, that have a much greater positive effect on their team.
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Re: Birdland Presents - The Miles Bridges Thread 

Post#742 » by JMAC3 » Tue Nov 17, 2020 2:27 pm

DY_nasty wrote:
JMAC3 wrote:I know I am beating a dead horse here but go team by team and look at what guys who play 25-30 minutes a night for nba teams put up for stats/averages.

Royce O’Neal plays 29 mins and avg 6.3 ppg
Joe ingles plays 33 mins avg 9.8 ppg
OG plays 30 mins avg 10.6 ppg
Josh Okogie 25 mins avg 8.6 ppg
Marcus Morris 29 mins avg 10.1 ppg
Mikal Bridges 28 mins avg 9.1 ppg
Daniel house 30 mins avg 10.5 ppg
Tony Snell 28 mins 8 ppg
Cedi Osman 30 mins 11 ppg
Jon Issac 29 mins 11.9 ppg
Dorian Finney Smith 30 mins 9.5 pp
Josh Hart 27 mins 10.1 ppg

Miles Bridges 30 mins 13 ppg

I know ppg isn’t the best stat, but I’m just showing what type of nba players get 30 mins a game in the league on the wing. You really think Bridges is failing putting up these stats?

Oh and he is 22 years old compared to a lot of these guys in their NBA prime

you looked at none of those links huh :/

those sites i posted went into detail regarding how basic box score averages don't tell a full story. there are guys with much less time on the court and worse numbers than bridges, that have a much greater positive effect on their team.


I understand analytics and I know you can find guys who pop based on per 36 numbers or when they get a larger role. However I think sometimes people get a little too enamored with things like this and forget to look at actual production.

"If he is a good hitter, then why doesn't he hit good"
- Brad Pitt (Billy Beane) in moneyball

You have to use a mix of eye test, actual production and advanced stats to get a full story.

I happen to believe that Miles still has a lot of room to grow and can still become a dynamic offensive player (three point spot up, post up smaller wings, great cutter, transition monster and maybe even develop a two man game in the pick and roll). OG Anounoby for instance is pretty much what he is a 3D guy stands in the corner on offense and plays good defense. That is super valuable in the league, but do I think Toronto is going to hand him a bigger role this year and all of sudden all his advanced metrics say he has allstar potential as a guy who can score at all three levels and get others involved?? NO. That is where watching the game and understanding a players potential strengths come into effect.

I look at advanced metrics for football as well and its great if a WR has a good ADOT or gets 2.4 yards of separation per route run. Love to see it, but it doesn't mean he is a 1000 yard receiver. I would much rather have the guy who has 3 1000 yard seasons under his belt, but grades out poorly in those metrics.

If a team gave up on every 22 year old prospect who grades out poorly in advanced stats they would never get anywhere. You have to coach them and develop them and put players around them that will help communicate with them on defense and put them in real game situations where they can learn and grow by watching film. I happen to believe that Miles is a hard worker, overall smart guy, and think we have a good coaching staff to get him there. I think trading him now has way more downside than upside.
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Re: Birdland Presents - The Miles Bridges Thread 

Post#743 » by DY_nasty » Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:19 pm

There was nothing per 36 in anything I referred to though - netrtg, real plus minus, etc, and all of the lineup information all tell the same story of him not feeling comfortable anywhere on the court offensively or defensively and our team suffers for it while he doesn't even have to compete for his job against anyone.

Plus all of those pulls are by possession, not average or extrapolated estimates. I'm not sure what that football example really means either... if the team is worse when a player is in the game, it is what it is. We all knew the guy was playing poorly any time he's not dunking, and Miles even said so himself as well - but when actually looking into the advanced stats it's way worse.

and again, nobody wants to see the guy fail. but the fact is that more guys stagnate and find themselves out the league than actually turn the corner. higher profile guys than him sputter out every year. the pressure is on plenty of guys from his same draft class and the previous class has top picks on their way out too.
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Re: Birdland Presents - The Miles Bridges Thread 

Post#744 » by JMAC3 » Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:44 pm

You don't think using advanced stats translates from sport to sport? If you believe in advanced stats for basketball, but don't believe in them in football then you are picking and choosing to tell whatever narrative you like.

But if you live an die by this Net rating system because Bridges is -9.7 then that is fine.

However, here are some other net ratings
Doumboya -10.8
RJ Barrrett -9.1
Marvin Bagley -12.6
Deangelo Russell -8.1
Draymond -7.3
Steph -15.3
Cam Reddish -6.3

Other hornets
Monk -10.5
Rozier -9
Zeller -8.3
PJ -6.3
Graham -4.5
Biz -6.6
Batum -3.3

This is more a team stat than player stat, Nobody on Wizards/Knicks/Wolves has positive net rating, Nobody on Toronto/Bucks/Boston has a negative net rating.

Count me out on building a team based on this stat.
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Re: Birdland Presents - The Miles Bridges Thread 

Post#745 » by DY_nasty » Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:58 pm

JMAC3 wrote:You don't think using advanced stats translates from sport to sport? If you believe in advanced stats for basketball, but don't believe in them in football then you are picking and choosing to tell whatever narrative you like.

But if you live an die by this Net rating system because Bridges is -9.7 then that is fine.

However, here are some other net ratings
Doumboya -10.8
RJ Barrrett -9.1
Marvin Bagley -12.6
Deangelo Russell -8.1
Draymond -7.3
Steph -15.3
Cam Reddish -6.3

Other hornets
Monk -10.5
Rozier 9
Zeller -8.3
PJ -6.3
Graham.4.5
Biz -6.6
Batum -3.3

This is more a team stat than player stat, Nobody on Wizards/Knicks/Wolves has positive net rating, Nobody on Toronto/Bucks/Boston has a negative net rating.

Count me out on building a team based on this stat.

? I don't believe in bringing up stuff like yards after catch when I'm arguing primarily around on/off metrics. its very clearly apples and oranges

And Its disingenuous to include guys who've had massive outlier seasons like Draymond and Steph too. Its blatantly ignoring context. Context is important like always. Warriors threw the entire year in the trash. And its not a 'team' stat either. Bad teams will be bad statistically because they're bad. :roll:

And yeah, we're a bad team - most of our players are bad. Monk's been on thin ice for a minute, we love biz and don't want to pay him, PJ hit the rookie wall hard and we all expect him to bounce back to the levels we saw at the beginning of the season, zeller is a held together by superglue at this point in his career and he'll never be consistent again in a starting role, rozier is underrated, and so on... I'm pretty consistently hard on everyone.

I'm not even living or dying by net rating either. Its a solid catch all that's hard to ignore when the guy gets the minutes he does on a team without competition at his position. We can talk about Miles defensive plays per foul, free throw rate, etc.... he's got problems everywhere that was labeled a strength on draft night.
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Re: Birdland Presents - The Miles Bridges Thread 

Post#746 » by JMAC3 » Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:22 pm

DY_nasty wrote:
JMAC3 wrote:You don't think using advanced stats translates from sport to sport? If you believe in advanced stats for basketball, but don't believe in them in football then you are picking and choosing to tell whatever narrative you like.

But if you live an die by this Net rating system because Bridges is -9.7 then that is fine.

However, here are some other net ratings
Doumboya -10.8
RJ Barrrett -9.1
Marvin Bagley -12.6
Deangelo Russell -8.1
Draymond -7.3
Steph -15.3
Cam Reddish -6.3

Other hornets
Monk -10.5
Rozier 9
Zeller -8.3
PJ -6.3
Graham.4.5
Biz -6.6
Batum -3.3

This is more a team stat than player stat, Nobody on Wizards/Knicks/Wolves has positive net rating, Nobody on Toronto/Bucks/Boston has a negative net rating.

Count me out on building a team based on this stat.

? I don't believe in bringing up stuff like yards after catch when I'm arguing primarily around on/off metrics. its very clearly apples and oranges

And Its disingenuous to include guys who've had massive outlier seasons like Draymond and Steph too. Its blatantly ignoring context. Context is important like always. Warriors threw the entire year in the trash. And its not a 'team' stat either. Bad teams will be bad statistically because they're bad. :roll:

And yeah, we're a bad team - most of our players are bad. Monk's been on thin ice for a minute, we love biz and don't want to pay him, PJ hit the rookie wall hard and we all expect him to bounce back to the levels we saw at the beginning of the season, zeller is a held together by superglue at this point in his career and he'll never be consistent again in a starting role, rozier is underrated, and so on... I'm pretty consistently hard on everyone.

I'm not even living or dying by net rating either. Its a solid catch all that's hard to ignore when the guy gets the minutes he does on a team without competition at his position. We can talk about Miles defensive plays per foul, free throw rate, etc.... he's got problems everywhere that was labeled a strength on draft night.


I think Net rating would be a telling stat if we were a winning team and all our guys had a positive net rating, but Miles. However on a bad team where every player has a negative net rating I think its a worthless stat for the most part. Same applies to a player with a positive rating on a good team.

Do I think I should look at net rating of Jalen Brunson of 7.6 or Grant Williams 6.3 and assume they are better prospects than RJ Barrett or Miles Bridges? Obviously not.

Context is everything. Again Draymond played on a bad team this year and had a bad net rating, same with Steph. If anything they are proving my point of Net rating is a bad stat to compare players.

The only way I think you can remotely use it is if you want to compare players from the same team. Comparing players from different teams based on Net Rating is pretty much useless.
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Re: Birdland Presents - The Miles Bridges Thread 

Post#747 » by DY_nasty » Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:12 pm

Do you realize you're lumping net rating and plus/minus together or is this a trick question? lol

adjusted plus/minus laid out fully: https://www.nbastuffer.com/analytics101/adjusted-plus-minus/ - actually good stuff
net rating = offensive rating - defensive rating. NETRTG.

they paint similar pictures typically but the numbers to get there are vastly different. and if you want to compare guys from the same team, then it works too. it doesn't really change anything. he's still bad.

the draymond and steph thing makes no sense because they have entire careers worth of achievement to prove what we all know - that GS wasn't trying to do anything this year. and amazingly, the stats showed that. box checked

its actually better to compare miles to his teammates lol.... he's had the most consistent minutes out of everyone the past two years with no injuries, jarring changes in role, or shifts in responsibilities. miles has the clearest statistical picture on the team by far.

and here's plenty more stuff~ https://fansided.com/2019/01/08/nylon-calculus-best-advanced-stat/

i went through all these last year trying to find something that actually made the guy look good

edit: like for real, i don't mind going back and forth and i'm sure other readers are tired of it - but you guys should really check these links out :lol: i've learned a ton over the past few months
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Re: Birdland Presents - The Miles Bridges Thread 

Post#748 » by yosemiteben » Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:20 pm

Miles Bridges is blushing at all this attention he's getting...
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Re: Birdland Presents - The Miles Bridges Thread 

Post#749 » by JMAC3 » Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:42 pm

DY_nasty wrote:Do you realize you're lumping net rating and plus/minus together or is this a trick question? lol

adjusted plus/minus laid out fully: https://www.nbastuffer.com/analytics101/adjusted-plus-minus/ - actually good stuff
net rating = offensive rating - defensive rating. NETRTG.

they paint similar pictures typically but the numbers to get there are vastly different. and if you want to compare guys from the same team, then it works too. it doesn't really change anything. he's still bad.

the draymond and steph thing makes no sense because they have entire careers worth of achievement to prove what we all know - that GS wasn't trying to do anything this year. and amazingly, the stats showed that. box checked

its actually better to compare miles to his teammates lol.... he's had the most consistent minutes out of everyone the past two years with no injuries, jarring changes in role, or shifts in responsibilities. miles has the clearest statistical picture on the team by far.

and here's plenty more stuff~ https://fansided.com/2019/01/08/nylon-calculus-best-advanced-stat/

i went through all these last year trying to find something that actually made the guy look good

edit: like for real, i don't mind going back and forth and i'm sure other readers are tired of it - but you guys should really check these links out :lol: i've learned a ton over the past few months


You do realize we are saying the same thing about Warriors? I am not saying that Steph and Draymond are bad players. That is obviously not true. However Net Rating is saying that they are bad players. Why? Because Net Rating is a team stat more so than an individual stat. If you play on a horrible team its almost impossible to have a positive net rating. Examples as I stated before on Knicks, Warriors, Wolves none of them have guys with a positive Net rating, but that doesn't mean that all their players are bad.

I also understand you are not saying that the only reason you think Miles is a bad player is not just Net Rating. However, you kept bringing up this stat with him in several posts, so I am debunking this as a good measure of player talent.

Advanced stats in the NBA can be a dangerous thing. I agree sometimes they can be helpful, but most paint a bad picture for young players on bad teams. Hence RJ Barrett, Cam Reddish, Marvin Bagley, etc always looking bad on advanced stats. Where as Donte Divenczo always grades out decently in advanced stats because he plays in bubble of a really good team surrounded by really good teammates that cover up his mistakes and help him excel at what he does. Wait until Divenczo plays for Kings this year and compare all his advanced stats with Bucks vs advanced stats with Kings. I will put money down they will be worse this year.

Chances are if we traded Bridges to a contender advanced stats would be far better for him. If after this year he shows no improvement, advanced stats are getting worse, etc I may start to panic a bit more on him. However, he could of easily been playing college basketball last year. He is probably still younger than 20% of guys that will be drafted tomorrow night.

I agree we should drop this banter over Net Rating and maybe over Miles altogether because it doesn't seem like either of us are going to concede anything to the other.

Also, I am not "lumping net rating and plus/minus together" As you can see in this link I am using true Net Rating (Off rating- Def rating). So maybe you should be the one to get your facts right here.

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/advanced/?sort=NET_RATING&dir=1&CF=MIN*GE*15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Season=2019-20
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Re: Birdland Presents - The Miles Bridges Thread 

Post#750 » by bravor » Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:00 pm

Then why the Hornets are shoping him if he is suh a keeper.

He may still have some value for some teams, and yes, if a team was willing to give up a 1st, even this year, for him, i doubt Hornets would hesitate. Hopefully.
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Re: Birdland Presents - The Miles Bridges Thread 

Post#751 » by BigSlam » Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:06 pm

yosemiteben wrote:Miles Bridges is blushing at all this attention he's getting...

This is now an interesting and constructive discussion between DY and JMAC though.

Keep the nasty out, keep the good stuff in.

Nice work posters.


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Re: Birdland Presents - The Miles Bridges Thread 

Post#752 » by Liver_Pooty » Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:32 pm

BigSlam wrote:
yosemiteben wrote:Miles Bridges is blushing at all this attention he's getting...

This is now an interesting and constructive discussion between DY and JMAC though.

Keep the nasty out, keep the good stuff in.

Nice work posters.


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Agreed. I've enjoyed the back and forth, and found it rather educational.
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Re: Birdland Presents - The Miles Bridges Thread 

Post#753 » by Chapelchilla » Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:01 pm

I would think Miles is worth a high first pick to many teams.
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Re: Birdland Presents - The Miles Bridges Thread 

Post#754 » by UNCNYC » Sun Nov 22, 2020 4:16 pm

I hope we don't trade Miles without at least giving him another HALF YEAR. Its hard to find players that can give you both positions and do so respectably. He has improved each year and has a great attitude. He just happens to be the ODD MAN OUT. I think our only question mark is at Center. If we can get Mitchell Robinson for say Graham and Monk that would be awesome.
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Re: Birdland Presents - The Miles Bridges Thread 

Post#755 » by Spartans14 » Sun Nov 22, 2020 8:15 pm

If Bridges doesn’t start, that would be the least athletic starting 5 in NBA history.
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Re: Birdland Presents - The Miles Bridges Thread 

Post#756 » by Liver_Pooty » Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:09 pm

I still think he will start with Hayward at the 2.
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Re: Birdland Presents - The Miles Bridges Thread 

Post#757 » by Vanderbilt_Grad » Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:18 pm

Liver_Pooty wrote:I still think he will start with Hayward at the 2.

Opening night? Maybe. I have my doubts that Hayward can still guard smaller 2s though.

What this comes down to though is which of Terry, Devonte', or LaMelo is coming off the bench so that Miles can keep putting up bad stats.
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Re: Birdland Presents - The Miles Bridges Thread 

Post#758 » by wilson115 » Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:19 am

Remember FO was offering Miles for trades. Plenty of minutes at his most productive position (PF) against bench units is a good way to hike up his value.

Need to re-tool anyway if we're building around Melo and GH. Which probably involves long and active help defenders, traits that don't describe Miles.
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Re: Birdland Presents - The Miles Bridges Thread 

Post#759 » by youngthegiant » Mon Nov 23, 2020 4:49 am

Monte Morris, Denver 2021 1st(unprotected), Denver 2025 1st(lottery protected) for Bridges? I think he's an ideal fit next to Jokic and MPJ.
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Re: Birdland Presents - The Miles Bridges Thread 

Post#760 » by BlackOutBuzz » Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:21 pm

youngthegiant wrote:Monte Morris, Denver 2021 1st(unprotected), Denver 2025 1st(lottery protected) for Bridges? I think he's an ideal fit next to Jokic and MPJ.
Strong offer, I'm just not sure what we'd do with Morris with our current backlog of guards. But I'd probably still do it.

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