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that where we messed up 2 summers ago we gave the money to the wrong two and should have gave the money to Lin and Lee.

Lin was great playing with Kemba a shame we only had it for a year.

Lee we brought in from a trade and did his job well and I remember him hitting the game winner vs the heat to put us up 3-2 in the series.

we bring these two back and we make playoffs both years and starting to build some respect from the league.

Lin was really a great addition to the team and was the guy that gave the team the lift it needed. It's a shame that the GM we brought in was biased towards a guy that was lackluster under a magnifying glass.

Hindsight is 20/20. There was absolutely no way that we should have allowed Batum to walk after the 2015-16 season he had, he made our offense run, helped Kemba become a star, and it is 100% revisionist history to say that was a horrible signing at the time. We all knew we had to pay to retain our main guys, and we know that Batum had similar offers from at least one other team, so it's not just us. Remember, most of us were just happy that we didn't have to actually max him out to retain him.

Every cap projection that summer, cap smoothing or not, had the cap around $110-115M by 2018, and potentially going up from there, rather than stagnating at $100M like it has. Most teams signed deals that are now gross overpays. Many to scrubs who shouldn't even get off the bench for a playoff team.

Or we can freak out about how Nic got hurt and played through an injury that he really should not have played through for most of the season, instead of realizing that Lin has played a grand total of 37 games since our playoff run, and that Lee (while solid and someone I'd love to have back) is fairly replaceable as a low-usage 3&D role player, and not somebody you pick over a guy that just put up 15/6/6, helped add 15 wins from your previous season, and had tremendous chemistry with Kemba and others on the team.

I don't blame management for re-signing Batum, or even Marvin, at the prices we got them at. Both were key cogs to our success and we needed to keep that going. I was pretty leery about Marvin's deal since he's older and had only really had that one good season, but ultimately he's been adequate. It sucks how Batum's value has cratered as a result of his injury and the cap being more than $10M lower than it was supposed to be right now. But that's how things have turned out.

Our biggest problem was how we could never fill out the bench without one extreme hole where we were forced into giving major minutes at a critical position to some of the absolute worst rotation players in the league. That dates back several years now. Roberts... Gary Neal... Sessions... MCW... the 3-headed monster of Hawes/Hibbert/Miles Plumlee... having to start PJ Hairston for 40+ games...

That wasn't even from lack of flexibility. It's not like those guys were all minimum salaries either. From memory, we had somewhere around $14M in cap space in 2016 while signing Nic and Marvin to their actual deals ($18M if you discount that Belinelli trade). Could we have brought in useful players? Absolutely. What did we do instead? We blew our load on the lifeless carcass of Roy Hibbert, Ramon Sessions' tweaked-out identical twin who had never played basketball in his life, and traded a 1st rounder and roughly $4M in cap space for Marco Belinelli. Even in the ridiculous 2016 offseason, $18M in cap space and an early 20s 1st rounder can get you some bench pieces. Every bench player we acquired that year was a total bust, and we spent the next two seasons scrambling desperately to reverse that while steadily making things worse each season. Exprings for Plumlee -> Plumlee for Dwight -> Dwight for Mozgov. That killed flexibility and depth much more than the Nic/Marvin signings.

I think they thought they were keeping Lin as well, it wasn’t until Brooklyn offered the starting spot that he walked.

Indeed. I remember a lot of people actually preferred keeping Marv over Lin and was kinda shocked by that. As for Batum, I like what he brings to to team, but I don’t see any world where he is a max player. Contracts like Batum and Otto Porter’s are low key a big reason general managers get fired.

Depends on what contracts would look like for Lin/Lee. Lin's been hurt constantly since his new deal, and Lee's deal is also sort of an albatross for NY at the moment.

100% agree we should've offered Batum less and let him walk if some other team was stupid enough to throw the money at him. Allegedly Toronto was ready with the max, I wish they'd stepped in that pile instead of us. I also don't buy that we had no choice in the matter, Batum isn't an impact player and to be honest he never has been for our team. Even in 2016 we played great when he went down. Coaches and FO types (Cliff especially, I'm sure) get enamored with his passing and skills, but ignore his inconsistency and moronic turnovers. Kemba is the only player on our squad worth big money, everyone else is a role player and should be valued accordingly.

Batum's not a plus player when in a central role, it was amateur hour for us to max him out. If you corner yourself into 'having to' throw huge money at a guy who has never seriously sniffed an All-Star spot, or at minimum All-Defense team (since I do recognize that defenders like Gobert are at a disadvantage for making the ASG), you've already made a big mistake. We just compounded it by not swallowing the sunk cost.

Looking back, Hornets should have traded with the C's. They should have drafted better. They should have done a better job in FA. They should have played Kemba less than what they did etc
Batum's contract is an issue, but as MKG said, 1°it could have been worst and 2° there is still hope they can recover from it (through trade, as long as he gets some value again).

The 5th year as PO was stupid though. AS for being overpaid, not everyone on the planet thinks Batum is worth more something like 13/15M a year (and i am generous). He was lucky to be one of the top sf in that FA (only Durant was there among stars) and Parsons and Barnes were arguably much more expensive (even though Barnes tends to live up to his deal or close enough).

As for all that 2016 free agency, remember that team leaders (Kemba?) wanted to keep as many players as possible.

Looking back we should have traded our pick to the Celtics who desperately wanted Frank and was willing to give up their first rounder and a few futures for him. We should have selected Jarian Grant who would have been a perfect backup to Kemba and a combo guard. and we would have had extra first rounders and been without frank

I remember I wanted to let Marvin and Lee walk. I didn’t love idea of paying Batum, but knew it was a must pretty much. I also was for looking at Harrison Barnes at the time as an alternative.

I wanted to resign Lin, but he has barely played since leaving so I doubt it would of been different here.

I though Lee was a good 3D guy but figured we could find another for half the cost.

I wanted to give Frank a chance to start and let Marv walk but that could of been ugly.

In the end I don’t think there is a clear winner.


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I was enamored with the thought of Batum but I had no understanding of how tight the cap was going to be. It's like the FA gates opened and we rushed to Batum instead of giving time to consider future impact.

The team prioritized bringing Lin back, but he wanted to start and we couldn't offer that to him. I doubt the team chose Marvin over him considering the impact he had in the playoffs against the Heat. It just didn't work out for either party, but that's life, sometimes you make decisions that are justifiable at the time but things end up going south due to unforeseen circumstances.

Looking back, we should have traded to move up in the drafts for Curry and KD, and drafted Klay and Draymond when they were each rookies. And also, we should have drafted Lebron and Kyrie. And also we should have had Jordan when he played.

I just don't get the point of these threads. Woulda shoulda coulda. Really, we are beating the Warriors or Boston next year with the Lin, Walker, Lee, Frank, Cody lineup? Let's keep in mind Lin and Lee really haven't set the world on fire since they left here for NY. I just don't see the point of the exercise.

MotorKeepsGoing wrote:Hindsight is 20/20. There was absolutely no way that we should have allowed Batum to walk after the 2015-16 season he had, he made our offense run, helped Kemba become a star, and it is 100% revisionist history to say that was a horrible signing at the time. We all knew we had to pay to retain our main guys, and we know that Batum had similar offers from at least one other team, so it's not just us. Remember, most of us were just happy that we didn't have to actually max him out to retain him.

Every cap projection that summer, cap smoothing or not, had the cap around $110-115M by 2018, and potentially going up from there, rather than stagnating at $100M like it has. Most teams signed deals that are now gross overpays. Many to scrubs who shouldn't even get off the bench for a playoff team.

Or we can freak out about how Nic got hurt and played through an injury that he really should not have played through for most of the season, instead of realizing that Lin has played a grand total of 37 games since our playoff run, and that Lee (while solid and someone I'd love to have back) is fairly replaceable as a low-usage 3&D role player, and not somebody you pick over a guy that just put up 15/6/6, helped add 15 wins from your previous season, and had tremendous chemistry with Kemba and others on the team.

I don't blame management for re-signing Batum, or even Marvin, at the prices we got them at. Both were key cogs to our success and we needed to keep that going. I was pretty leery about Marvin's deal since he's older and had only really had that one good season, but ultimately he's been adequate. It sucks how Batum's value has cratered as a result of his injury and the cap being more than $10M lower than it was supposed to be right now. But that's how things have turned out.

Our biggest problem was how we could never fill out the bench without one extreme hole where we were forced into giving major minutes at a critical position to some of the absolute worst rotation players in the league. That dates back several years now. Roberts... Gary Neal... Sessions... MCW... the 3-headed monster of Hawes/Hibbert/Miles Plumlee... having to start PJ Hairston for 40+ games...

That wasn't even from lack of flexibility. It's not like those guys were all minimum salaries either. From memory, we had somewhere around $14M in cap space in 2016 while signing Nic and Marvin to their actual deals ($18M if you discount that Belinelli trade). Could we have brought in useful players? Absolutely. What did we do instead? We blew our load on the lifeless carcass of Roy Hibbert, Ramon Sessions' tweaked-out identical twin who had never played basketball in his life, and traded a 1st rounder and roughly $4M in cap space for Marco Belinelli. Even in the ridiculous 2016 offseason, $18M in cap space and an early 20s 1st rounder can get you some bench pieces. Every bench player we acquired that year was a total bust, and we spent the next two seasons scrambling desperately to reverse that while steadily making things worse each season. Exprings for Plumlee -> Plumlee for Dwight -> Dwight for Mozgov. That killed flexibility and depth much more than the Nic/Marvin signings.

Excellent analysis. I wish we did not resign Marv at that price but at the time it was a necessary evil. He is still a decent player and key good guy vet in the locker room. Hopefully he is tradeable (even as a giveaway) now that Frank and Miles are around.
Batum was an overpay but he is not nearly as bad as he looked playing with a torn elbow all last year. He should be a legit starter this season if it is healed.

Looking back, we should've thrown a Magic 8-ball covered in catnip into a leopard's cage and just let whatever it said guide the GM decisions. Leopard with Magic 8-Ball probably would've won GM of the year compared to what we've had.

We signed the two better players. So, okay.

Batum + Lin would've worked best but Lin wanted to become a starter.

But I said at the time, I wouldn't give Batum more than 15 million. And I was attacked for that.

MasterIchiro wrote:But I said at the time, I wouldn't give Batum more than 15 million. And I was attacked for that.

It would have been fantastic for us to get him that cheap but it wasn’t gonna happen

Still think he can bounce back to a 18 mill type player but we definitely overpaid

I still believe in Nic. I think he had a down year because he had his elbow injury, and difficulty adjusting to Dwight. He makes a lot of money, but I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt for last year, and I'm excited to see if he can live up to it this year.

Nic as a player has skills that could help any winning team. The 3 point shooting, passing, etc. are all good.

But he's definitely not a #1 or #2 guy on a team. He needs to be #3. The team needs a good backup PG to be functional. It needs another really solid two-way player to be one of the good teams.