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People don't talk enough about how awful the Hornets are

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Re: People don't talk enough about how awful the Hornets are 

Post#101 » by Liver_Pooty » Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:25 am

We didnt even offer Kemba the regular max. Let alone super max. Super max had nothing to do with anything
Balllin wrote:Zion Williamson is 6-5, with a 6-10 wingspan. I see him as a slightly better Kenneth Faried.
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Re: People don't talk enough about how awful the Hornets are 

Post#102 » by Liver_Pooty » Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:27 am

Robot Rock wrote:I’d like to know what the “they know what they have to do” that kemba was referring to during the season was, with regard to him staying. Because looking back on it i don’t think he ever intended to re-sign.


I think he did. We just had horrid contracts and no assets to deal for literally anything. And the one push we did make for Gasol could have been disastrous.
Balllin wrote:Zion Williamson is 6-5, with a 6-10 wingspan. I see him as a slightly better Kenneth Faried.
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Re: People don't talk enough about how awful the Hornets are 

Post#103 » by JDuaneWayne » Sun Jul 21, 2019 12:16 pm

To all of those sitting in the back of the class.

What most of us are saying is if you weren’t prepared to at least give Kemba 5/175 and go up to 5/190 then the last two years of being rumored for trades have been strictly for optics making it look like they’re doing something.

Now follow me here, we lost our 2 leading scorers and 3 best offensive players. So if we couldn’t get over the hump with them how can we without?

Why even sign Rozier? If he plays out of his mind and comes close to living up to his contract, guess what?! Next year he’s going to want some help. Right back in the same boat. Instead we should have signed a stopgap PG let the youth age together and build some unity.

But no this franchise is all about the optics of doing something. It’s all negligence at best.

Don’t give me the All-Star game spiel again, if none of the above are true about our highest offer to Kemba then it was and always will be about the money. People say Jordan spends, and talk about our salary compared to the rest of the league. Jordan spends up until he remains profitable, I can guarantee he knows what that number is and he won’t take a loss for future gain.

Dude has already made good on his investment in the Charlotte, paying the tax for one year was never going to change that. Now we’re back on the treadmill. It will be interesting to see next years attendance numbers, I’d like to see actual attendance not seats paid for by corporations.
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Re: People don't talk enough about how awful the Hornets are 

Post#104 » by LofJ » Sun Jul 21, 2019 12:33 pm

Michael Jordan is a joke of an owner. When you compare him to Tepper the difference is stark. And it will become even more apparent when the Panthers win the Superbowl while the Hornets are one of the worst teams in the NBA next year.
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Re: People don't talk enough about how awful the Hornets are 

Post#105 » by MasterIchiro » Sun Jul 21, 2019 12:49 pm

[url][/url]
Vanderbilt_Grad wrote:
yosemiteben wrote:And I don't need specific offers to be upset about poor roster management. You can't tell me that we couldn't have done better than Terry Rozier on a $56M deal if we traded Kemba last summer or at the deadline.

I feel like I can totally tell you that. We have no way to really know what could have been in play, and the hypothetical stuff here on this board was probably wildly optimistic.


You totally can and should.
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Re: People don't talk enough about how awful the Hornets are 

Post#106 » by MasterIchiro » Sun Jul 21, 2019 12:54 pm

Vanderbilt_Grad wrote:The Howard trade is an interesting point - but I consider the following
1. It's not clear that Dwight was willing to be bought out by Charlotte. Once he was traded it was a clear FU move back at the Hornets.
2. OTOH it does seem clear that there was a lot of pressure, probably from Kemba's camp based on what we've heard, to get rid of Dwight. This might have been a move made to try to keep Kemba happy.
3. The money saved last year was used to bring in Tony Parker, in an attempt to both give Kemba a real backup and to give Borrego someone to help him implement his system.

Charlotte also showed up in all sorts of trade rumors last season. It was clear the Mitch was being active ... we've also been told that it was his refusal to go with lighter protection on this year's pick that lead to the collapse of talks with Memphis to get Gasol here. Whatever else he is doing, Mitch seems hyper focused on keeping existing lottery picks.
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Re: People don't talk enough about how awful the Hornets are 

Post#107 » by MasterIchiro » Sun Jul 21, 2019 12:59 pm

yosemiteben wrote:
MasterIchiro wrote:Yes you do need to cite an offer to prove Mitch turned down a superior choice or that Mitch had a choice at all.

I disagree. I don't think a condition to being critical of the FO is having actual information about offers made to the FO, especially when our FO does everything they can to specifically prevent that information from getting out.

Since becoming CLT's GM, Kupchak's only positive IMO has been his drafting, and even with that we are really only talking about drafting Graham since I would have been totally happy with the two guys clearly mocked to us at 11 (Bridges and SGA). Conversely, he has also done the following:

(1) added to our $ problems in how we moved Dwight (something that over time has looked increasingly to me like a very stupid decision)
(2) made no moves last summer (note that upon hiring Kupchak's highest priority should have been figuring out WTF we were going to do with Kemba)
(3) made no moves at a trade deadline when it was our last opportunity to make a choice on strategy before we had assets walk out the door
(4) refused to retain Kemba for market value, instead being forced into a S&T for Rozier who realistically is an overpaid project that we never would have traded Kemba for in any other context
(5) let Lamb walk for no value
(6) not signed a single meaningful FA
(7) not given any sense of a coherent strategy for our path forward

And let's talk about Kemba - it appears that you are choosing to treat the Rozier S&T as a positive for Mitch. The reality is that the only reason that was even an option is because Kemba wanted to go to BOS. Once Kemba realized he wasn't staying, Mitch lost all control over any ability to get value for Kemba. We were fortunate that Kemba wanted to go somewhere that had an asset at PG that we could S&T for, but that was entirely coincidental, Mitch did not have any say in that and we very easily could have been SOL had Kemba wanted to go somewhere else with cap space.

I don't think we specifically wanted Rozier, I think he was the only viable option that happened to be available once Kemba made his decision.

MasterIchiro wrote:Also Ben, cite an example of you feeling upset about roster management when Cho was here.

Even if I loved every move Cho made and have his face tattooed on my arm, that does not preclude me from expressing this concern about Kupchak. We have banned posters in the past for scoreboarding / derailing conversations to harp on prior unrelated arguments or criticizing posters for opinions expressed years ago. No one is disqualified from expressing a viewpoint about this team because of some prior viewpoint, regardless of how proximately related the viewpoints are.

So please permanently stop doing that.


I just think it's awkward that you have no shred of proof that Mitch had an offer in hand for Kemba and this is central to your position. What was the better offer Ben? What was the better choice Ben? Maybe just take a wild guess. It's all you've got.
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Re: People don't talk enough about how awful the Hornets are 

Post#108 » by MasterIchiro » Sun Jul 21, 2019 1:04 pm

Vanderbilt_Grad wrote:
yosemiteben wrote:My real problem is the lack of strategy.

Why are we making moves to keep Kemba happy if we aren't committed to keeping him?

My perception is that the FO actually has a strategy for the first time in ages.

They were willing to make trades for Kemba and pay him ... but only so much. If Kemba's market was too high or the trades called for too high a price they weren't going to get done. Mitch was willing to walk away from anything he didn't like value wise and do the best he could after that.

This wasn't about keeping Kemba or tanking ... it was about recovering from a huge mess as best he could.


This perception is reality.
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Re: People don't talk enough about how awful the Hornets are 

Post#109 » by SWedd523 » Sun Jul 21, 2019 1:52 pm

I find this blaming everything on Cho to be especially lazy and (at the minimum) disingenuous.

You can't give Mitch a clean bill in all of this.

Especially after seeing the good work Cho has been a part of in Memphis
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Re: People don't talk enough about how awful the Hornets are 

Post#110 » by yosemiteben » Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:06 pm

MasterIchiro wrote:I just think it's awkward that you have no shred of proof that Mitch had an offer in hand for Kemba and this is central to your position.

And I think it's bizarre that you would think I could even possibly have that information.

So is your take that no one wanted Kemba at any point over the last two years? Because our actions this summer show that we were willing to let him walk for nothing. That is specifically what I find unacceptable.
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Re: People don't talk enough about how awful the Hornets are 

Post#111 » by MasterIchiro » Sun Jul 21, 2019 3:10 pm

yosemiteben wrote:
MasterIchiro wrote:I just think it's awkward that you have no shred of proof that Mitch had an offer in hand for Kemba and this is central to your position.

And I think it's bizarre that you would think I could even possibly have that information.

So is your take that no one wanted Kemba at any point over the last two years? Because our actions this summer show that we were willing to let him walk for nothing. That is specifically what I find unacceptable.


It's peculiar. You assert Mitch should have traded Kemba. What were his offers? What was one offer? How do you know Mitch had a good choice and.just blew it? You don't know so how do you conclude Mitch should have pulled the trigger? Makes no sense at all to me and I'm trying to understand it.
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Re: People don't talk enough about how awful the Hornets are 

Post#112 » by LofJ » Sun Jul 21, 2019 3:11 pm

SWedd523 wrote:I find this blaming everything on Cho to be especially lazy and (at the minimum) disingenuous.

You can't give Mitch a clean bill in all of this.

Especially after seeing the good work Cho has been a part of in Memphis


The ultimate blame lies with MJ. That said I do think people are being more critical of Mitch than they were of Cho. The criticism of the Dwight trade in particular strikes me as being disingenuous.

He was a known locker room cancer that the team had to get rid of that very few teams were likely to trade for. Mitch was bargaining from a position of weakness from the beginning. And because of Cho's short-sighted move to trade away several year's worth of 2nd round picks it made sense to place some priority on fixing that. Mitch accomplished that and then some. We're likely to have back to back to back early 2nd round picks on the roster a year from now.

I also roll my eyes at the suggestion that Biz's salary prevented the team from offering Kemba more money. And in addition to that we were never going to bring back Lamb, Kemba being here or not. And Frank did not want to be here. So having Biz on the books changed nothing.
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Re: People don't talk enough about how awful the Hornets are 

Post#113 » by MasterIchiro » Sun Jul 21, 2019 3:12 pm

SWedd523 wrote:I find this blaming everything on Cho to be especially lazy and (at the minimum) disingenuous.

You can't give Mitch a clean bill in all of this.

Especially after seeing the good work Cho has been a part of in Memphis


Cho's track record speaks for itself.
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Re: People don't talk enough about how awful the Hornets are 

Post#114 » by yosemiteben » Sun Jul 21, 2019 3:41 pm

MasterIchiro wrote:It's peculiar. You assert Mitch should have traded Kemba. What were his offers? What was one offer? How do you know Mitch had a good choice and.just blew it? You don't know so how do you conclude Mitch should have pulled the trigger? Makes no sense at all to me and I'm trying to understand it.

Literally any non-negative offer would have been better then Kemba leaving for nothing, which is the position we put ourselves in when we gave him an offer he wouldn't accept. This seems incredibly basic.

Again, is your take that no one wanted Kemba at any point over the last two years? Because (like I already said and you seem to have ignored) our actions this summer show that we were willing to let him walk for nothing. That is specifically what I find unacceptable.
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Re: People don't talk enough about how awful the Hornets are 

Post#115 » by MasterIchiro » Sun Jul 21, 2019 4:07 pm

yosemiteben wrote:
MasterIchiro wrote:It's peculiar. You assert Mitch should have traded Kemba. What were his offers? What was one offer? How do you know Mitch had a good choice and.just blew it? You don't know so how do you conclude Mitch should have pulled the trigger? Makes no sense at all to me and I'm trying to understand it.

Literally any non-negative offer would have been better then Kemba leaving for nothing, which is the position we put ourselves in when we gave him an offer he wouldn't accept. This seems incredibly basic.

Again, is your take that no one wanted Kemba at any point over the last two years? Because (like I already said and you seem to have ignored) our actions this summer show that we were willing to let him walk for nothing. That is specifically what I find unacceptable.


Is it possible there was no offer Ben?
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Re: People don't talk enough about how awful the Hornets are 

Post#116 » by MasterIchiro » Sun Jul 21, 2019 4:14 pm

Correct me if I'm wrong. Cho's track record is to be scrubbed PERMANENTLY via amnesia. In its place, we shall implant a phantom offer for Kemba that Mitch turned down. I guess the plan was, not to reach the playoffs with Kemba, but to miss it on the final day of the season.

I love making stuff up. Ignoring the past and inventing a new one is quite sophisticated. It's different. Like an imaginary friend.

We're all going to root for Rozier, ultimately. I guess some are going to cry about it longer than others but we have 3 years to build a Robot Rock solid case. The case is closed on the last regime. And I don't need amnesia to move on. Makes it easier.
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Re: People don't talk enough about how awful the Hornets are 

Post#117 » by MasterIchiro » Sun Jul 21, 2019 4:27 pm

In cruel Choke's final season as clown GM (God rest his soul) Jordan's public stance was he would want someone like Kawhi or an All-Star for Kemba. Too bad Mitch turned down Spurs for Kawhi along with all the other all stars GM's threw on Mitch's lap while Kemba was in a walk year and Hornets were trying to make the playoffs.
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Re: People don't talk enough about how awful the Hornets are 

Post#118 » by yosemiteben » Sun Jul 21, 2019 4:28 pm

MasterIchiro wrote:Is it possible there was no offer Ben?

To say this, you have to argue that no team was willing to trade for Kemba. I don't believe that was the case. I don't know what you think because you just keep repeating the same thing over and over again.

Do you legitimately think Kemba could not have been traded last summer or at the deadline for an expiring plus some future pick?
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Re: People don't talk enough about how awful the Hornets are 

Post#119 » by yosemiteben » Sun Jul 21, 2019 4:29 pm

MasterIchiro wrote:Cho's track record is to be scrubbed PERMANENTLY via amnesia.

We aren't discussing Cho, regardless of much you want to include him in this conversation.

What move has Mitch made in the last 12 months that last summer you would have wanted him to do?
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Re: People don't talk enough about how awful the Hornets are 

Post#120 » by MasterIchiro » Sun Jul 21, 2019 4:31 pm

yosemiteben wrote:
MasterIchiro wrote:Is it possible there was no offer Ben?

To say this, you have to argue that no team was willing to trade for Kemba. I don't believe that was the case. I don't know what you think because you just keep repeating the same thing over and over again.

Do you legitimately think Kemba could not have been traded last summer or at the deadline for an expiring plus some future pick?


Is it possible scumbag GM's in a league where supposedly Kupchak is the lone honest executive who doesn't tamper, low-balled Kupchak while he was trying to make the playoffs?
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