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People don't talk enough about how awful the Hornets are

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Re: People don't talk enough about how awful the Hornets are 

Post#121 » by yosemiteben » Sun Jul 21, 2019 4:42 pm

MasterIchiro wrote:
yosemiteben wrote:
MasterIchiro wrote:Is it possible there was no offer Ben?

To say this, you have to argue that no team was willing to trade for Kemba. I don't believe that was the case. I don't know what you think because you just keep repeating the same thing over and over again.

Do you legitimately think Kemba could not have been traded last summer or at the deadline for an expiring plus some future pick?


Is it possible scumbag GM's in a league where supposedly Kupchak is the lone honest executive who doesn't tamper, low-balled Kupchak while he was trying to make the playoffs?

We wouldn't be trying to make the playoffs if we traded Kemba.

A low ball offer is better than nothing. We were prepared to accept nothing. You really think that was a sound strategy?
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Re: People don't talk enough about how awful the Hornets are 

Post#122 » by MasterIchiro » Sun Jul 21, 2019 4:53 pm

yosemiteben wrote:
MasterIchiro wrote:Cho's track record is to be scrubbed PERMANENTLY via amnesia.

We aren't discussing Cho, regardless of much you want to include him in this conversation.

What move has Mitch made in the last 12 months that last summer you would have wanted him to do?


Yes no need to reminisce about moves I would have made if I were Cho. Mitch is off to a good start with me. Nothing spectacular. I will settle for forward momentum and incrementalism at this point.

Highlights for me

1 - I love Miles Bridges. He's a modern 2-way PF and he's entertaining. Losing is a given. I love watching him play. He's versatile at SF as well.
2 - PJ Washington. He's a modern 2-way PF who can grow as a small-ball stretch center. He can shoot.
3 - Rozier. Kupchak and JB both have him as a 2-way PG. I don't want a tank commander like Sexton or Smith Jr. I don't want one way players at any position. Rozier is also tough. This team plays soft/passive. Especially Cody and Nic.
4 - Monk. I like that Mitch didn't pay a fringe starter Lamb real money. I like Monk and Bacon getting more minutes. I'm glad Mitch did not attach Monk to a bad contract.
5 - Bacon. There was a development plan for him and it showed.

Mitch has been here for 1 season. I count 5 young players I like, 4 of them 2-way, no selling off second rounders, keeping all firsts and adding more seconds.

I wish Mitch could have traded Nic for a packet of French dressing. It's my lone quibble.
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Re: People don't talk enough about how awful the Hornets are 

Post#123 » by MasterIchiro » Sun Jul 21, 2019 5:02 pm

yosemiteben wrote:
MasterIchiro wrote:
yosemiteben wrote:To say this, you have to argue that no team was willing to trade for Kemba. I don't believe that was the case. I don't know what you think because you just keep repeating the same thing over and over again.

Do you legitimately think Kemba could not have been traded last summer or at the deadline for an expiring plus some future pick?


Is it possible scumbag GM's in a league where supposedly Kupchak is the lone honest executive who doesn't tamper, low-balled Kupchak while he was trying to make the playoffs?

We wouldn't be trying to make the playoffs if we traded Kemba.

A low ball offer is better than nothing. We were prepared to accept nothing. You really think that was a sound strategy?


I don't invest any serious amount of confidence that any of these dishonest GM's made a good faith offer. I don't find it realistic that a GM of Kupchak's seniority would be caught with his pants down. I find it far more likely he fended off the vultures circling Cho's carcass, frozen cap, unmovable contracts, star player in a walk year, lotto pick busts set to hit the market like Frank. I'm a man of action but for the first time in my fanhood in any sport/team, I can see the logic in nonmoves being the best moves. I look around the league and see maneuverability. I have accepted that Mitch doesn't enjoy that same luxury. And when I try to picture things Mitch could have done, should have done, could be doing, I find myself painted into a corner where hope and hypotheticals crash into the reality of the situation.
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Re: People don't talk enough about how awful the Hornets are 

Post#124 » by SWedd523 » Sun Jul 21, 2019 5:16 pm

MasterIchiro wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong. Cho's track record is to be scrubbed PERMANENTLY via amnesia. In its place, we shall implant a phantom offer for Kemba that Mitch turned down. I guess the plan was, not to reach the playoffs with Kemba, but to miss it on the final day of the season.

I love making stuff up. Ignoring the past and inventing a new one is quite sophisticated. It's different. Like an imaginary friend.

We're all going to root for Rozier, ultimately. I guess some are going to cry about it longer than others but we have 3 years to build a Robot Rock solid case. The case is closed on the last regime. And I don't need amnesia to move on. Makes it easier.



Correct me if I'm wrong but Cho was fired a year and a half ago.

Yet you're still here railing on him.

Even worse, you're making ridiculous hypothetical excuses for Mitch yet using ridiculous hypotheticals to rail on Cho.

You're trying too hard. How long are we gonna give Mitch alibis? Two years? Three?

Mitch has doesn't absolutely nothing positive in his time as a GM. He, really, hasn't done much of anything other than toe the company line and collect paychecks.
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Re: People don't talk enough about how awful the Hornets are 

Post#125 » by Braggins » Sun Jul 21, 2019 5:38 pm

MasterIchiro wrote:
yosemiteben wrote:
MasterIchiro wrote:Cho's track record is to be scrubbed PERMANENTLY via amnesia.

We aren't discussing Cho, regardless of much you want to include him in this conversation.

What move has Mitch made in the last 12 months that last summer you would have wanted him to do?


Yes no need to reminisce about moves I would have made if I were Cho. Mitch is off to a good start with me. Nothing spectacular. I will settle for forward momentum and incrementalism at this point.

Highlights for me

1 - I love Miles Bridges. He's a modern 2-way PF and he's entertaining. Losing is a given. I love watching him play. He's versatile at SF as well.
2 - PJ Washington. He's a modern 2-way PF who can grow as a small-ball stretch center. He can shoot.
3 - Rozier. Kupchak and JB both have him as a 2-way PG. I don't want a tank commander like Sexton or Smith Jr. I don't want one way players at any position. Rozier is also tough. This team plays soft/passive. Especially Cody and Nic.
4 - Monk. I like that Mitch didn't pay a fringe starter Lamb real money. I like Monk and Bacon getting more minutes. I'm glad Mitch did not attach Monk to a bad contract.
5 - Bacon. There was a development plan for him and it showed.

Mitch has been here for 1 season. I count 5 young players I like, 4 of them 2-way, no selling off second rounders, keeping all firsts and adding more seconds.

I wish Mitch could have traded Nic for a packet of French dressing. It's my lone quibble.

I also like Mitch's drafting so far and I think Borrego has the potential to be a good hire, but things like letting Lamb walk when he got signed for 10 mil a year and then signing a worse player (Rozier) for almost double the money aren't positives for Mitch, they are blights on his record.

Tbh, other than his draft choices and not trading 1sts his moves have been really bad. I'm guessing the constraints put on any GM working for MJ (this applied to Cho as well, although I don't want to defend him) may be a major factor in some of his dumbest moves, so it might not be fair to fully blame him, but I still don't see much reason to be that optimistic about him. Hes probably an upgrade over Cho if he can at least be above average at drafting, but that isn't a high bar.
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Re: People don't talk enough about how awful the Hornets are 

Post#126 » by MasterIchiro » Sun Jul 21, 2019 6:17 pm

SWedd523 wrote:
MasterIchiro wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong. Cho's track record is to be scrubbed PERMANENTLY via amnesia. In its place, we shall implant a phantom offer for Kemba that Mitch turned down. I guess the plan was, not to reach the playoffs with Kemba, but to miss it on the final day of the season.

I love making stuff up. Ignoring the past and inventing a new one is quite sophisticated. It's different. Like an imaginary friend.

We're all going to root for Rozier, ultimately. I guess some are going to cry about it longer than others but we have 3 years to build a Robot Rock solid case. The case is closed on the last regime. And I don't need amnesia to move on. Makes it easier.



Correct me if I'm wrong but Cho was fired a year and a half ago.

Yet you're still here railing on him.

Even worse, you're making ridiculous hypothetical excuses for Mitch yet using ridiculous hypotheticals to rail on Cho.

You're trying too hard. How long are we gonna give Mitch alibis? Two years? Three?

Mitch has doesn't absolutely nothing positive in his time as a GM. He, really, hasn't done much of anything other than toe the company line and collect paychecks.


One year and 6 months ago, yet pieces of his carcass like MKG and Nic remain.

Case closed on Cho. He failed as GM and lost his job. I've moved on.

Work on your case. I have nothing more to say about Cho.
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Re: People don't talk enough about how awful the Hornets are 

Post#127 » by Splitta » Sun Jul 21, 2019 6:42 pm

To be honest, Mitch seems to be trying to get out of this cap mess without giving up lottery picks or taking on bad contracts. IMO the Rozier signing was a good one as you have to have a pg in the NBA. Graham is definitely not a starting pg but Rozier has proven that he is. Marv, MKG, and Biz will be gone at the end of next season or maybe at the trade deadline. We will then have cap money, still have our draft picks, and can look forward to Batum and Cody being gone the following year. Maybe I am overly optimistic but if Mitch does not over react and do something stupid, this rebuild may not take that long. Fingers-crossed.
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Re: People don't talk enough about how awful the Hornets are 

Post#128 » by yosemiteben » Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:10 pm

So the highlights for Mitch are two guys Cho drafted, a player that Mitch was only able to trade for because Kemba specifically wanted to go to BOS (something Mitch had no control over), a guy that hasn't played at all yet, and Bridges. I mean, that's not nothing, but that's hardly what I would call a strategic success.
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Charlotte, N.C. 

Post#129 » by Najee12 » Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:16 pm

LofJ wrote:It annoys me how ignorant folks are about how quickly North Carolina is changing. NC is going to be one of the richest, most populated states in the country in the not too distant future. Nevada and Missouri wish they could change places with North Carolina.

The NBA wants to have a team in North Carolina.
It's why Charlotte was rewarded with an expansion franchise after the mess with Shinn. Silver and the other owners would be overjoyed if the Hornets got their act together. MJ is sacrificing a lot of money putting out such a poor product. And that means by extension the other owners are also missing out on money.


I still see news stories referring to Charlotte as a "mid-sized city" when Charlotte is the 16th most populous city in the United States. Salt Lake City is not even one of the top 100 most populous cities in the country (Fayetteville, N.C., has a larger population). Charlotte has more people than Atlanta, Washington, D.C., and Miami, and yet people think these cities have more people than Charlotte. Columbia, S.C., is a mid-sized city, not Charlotte.

People also are ignorant to the fact the first edition of the Charlotte Hornets led the NBA attendance in their first eight seasons (1988-89 through 1995-96) and finished second in 1996-97, which was most of the Chicago Bulls' run of its six titles. Charlotte has proven it can draw a large local following if the front office can assemble a competent team.
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Re: People don't talk enough about how awful the Hornets are 

Post#130 » by MasterIchiro » Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:38 pm

Braggins wrote:Hes probably an upgrade over Cho if he can at least be above average at drafting, but that isn't a high bar.


Probably lol. Neither Miles nor PJ will bust. 2 consecutive draft picks not busting is something that didn't happen this past decade and maybe never before in team history. The draft is a big deal. It keeps you out of the free agent market and its crippling contacts while giving you more maneuverability in trades.

If you fail at drafting there's not much you can do in the other areas. It really handcuffs and caps a team, as we saw these past 8 years going on 9-10
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Re: People don't talk enough about how awful the Hornets are 

Post#131 » by Vanderbilt_Grad » Mon Jul 22, 2019 1:57 am

SWedd523 wrote:I find this blaming everything on Cho to be especially lazy and (at the minimum) disingenuous.

I think that there is blame to go around in that time period here in Charlotte. MJ for letting too many people have voices in the draft war room. Cliff for doing short sighted things like wanting a trade for Belinelli. But I think that Cho's office is primarily responsible for the contract situation - both the disaster of having money the year everyone did and the crazy contracts that MKG and others have. When I think of Cho it's really shorthand in my mind for the 'Cho era' here in Charlotte and all the ultimately bad decisions that went down then. But, make no mistake, Cho screwed up a lot here, even if he wasn't the only one - or even if he learned from that and is doing better now.

yosemiteben wrote:We wouldn't be trying to make the playoffs if we traded Kemba.

I don't think that this team has stopped trying to make the playoffs since signing Big Al. My take is that MJ hated losing and will never willingly sign up for a tank year again. The team may not be great next year, but trading for Terry was a statement that even if the team isn't as good this year that they will still be trying.
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Re: People don't talk enough about how awful the Hornets are 

Post#132 » by SWedd523 » Mon Jul 22, 2019 2:22 am

I don't see any issue with blaming Cho for things Cho was here for.

My issue is letting Mitch skirt on incompetence because Cho sucked. Mitch had a year and a half to find a better return for Kemba than giving Rozier 18m a year. He's a failure thus far in Charlotte and it has nothing to do with Cho
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Re: People don't talk enough about how awful the Hornets are 

Post#133 » by Vanderbilt_Grad » Mon Jul 22, 2019 2:38 am

yosemiteben wrote:a player that Mitch was only able to trade for because Kemba specifically wanted to go to BOS (something Mitch had no control over)


yosemiteben wrote:Rozier himself wasn't an option before Kemba created it, the FO doesn't get to frame that trade as a target they were pursuing other than as a result of being caught with no alternative when Kemba didn't take their offer.


Ben, I'm going to pull these two quotes out of context and put them together here. I couldn't disagree with your narrative on Terry more.

We've already heard that the FO like Terry better than most of the other options out there. They probably would have tried to get him, had Kemba gone elsewhere, but would likely have been outbid by Phoenix or even Boston depending on how things went down. What they S&T did was allow them to get the guy they wanted. That's really what we need to judge Mitch on - how Terry does here and if he was really the right guy to put on this team over options like Mudiay or Rubio or guys that he might might have drafted instead of PJ.

What I already give Mitch credit for here is that he is displaying flexibility - the ability to pivot to a plan B - that we didn't seem to see very often in the Cho era. Doesn't really matter if his control was limited or if he benefited from Kemba's choices, the fact is that he was able to make something happen, and we regularly saw the opposite during Cho's time here.
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Re: People don't talk enough about how awful the Hornets are 

Post#134 » by yosemiteben » Mon Jul 22, 2019 3:59 am

Vanderbilt_Grad wrote:We've already heard that the FO like Terry better than most of the other options out there. They probably would have tried to get him, had Kemba gone elsewhere, but would likely have been outbid by Phoenix or even Boston depending on how things went down. What they S&T did was allow them to get the guy they wanted. That's really what we need to judge Mitch on - how Terry does here and if he was really the right guy to put on this team over options like Mudiay or Rubio or guys that he might might have drafted instead of PJ.

Two responses:

First, if we didn't S&T, then all we had was the MLE. If we could have possibly gotten Rozier for the MLE, then we sure as **** shouldn't have paid him $10M more than that like we just committed ourselves to do.

Second, I say our FO doesn't get to claim the win on a S&T because they were totally at Kemba's mercy. If he wanted to go to any other place (or if he wanted to go to BOS when they knew they could have just used cap space), it would not have mattered how interested we were in Rozier because he wouldn't have been an option. It is factually accurate that the only way that Rozier was an option at the contract he received or anything above the MLE was because a choice was made by Kemba that our FO had no say in.

It appears our strategy (which again Mitch should have set as his top priority when he first joined) was to offer less than the max to Kemba and just pray that we he would take it or we could work out a S&T to whatever team he wanted to go to. That is a completely indefensible strategy.

Vanderbilt_Grad wrote:What I already give Mitch credit for here is that he is displaying flexibility - the ability to pivot to a plan B - that we didn't seem to see very often in the Cho era. Doesn't really matter if his control was limited or if he benefited from Kemba's choices, the fact is that he was able to make something happen, and we regularly saw the opposite during Cho's time here.

He got a gift (assuming Rozier works out) because Kemba wanted to go to a team with a PG logjam that had soured on Rozier and was unlikely to retain him. He made something happen because (1) BOS thought they needed to ditch salary when they thought they had a shot with Horford, (2) they were unlikely to retain Rozier anyway, and (3) we were so **** that we would pay whatever we had to in order to get Rozier.
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Re: Charlotte, N.C. 

Post#135 » by fatlever » Mon Jul 22, 2019 4:43 am

Najee12 wrote:
LofJ wrote:It annoys me how ignorant folks are about how quickly North Carolina is changing. NC is going to be one of the richest, most populated states in the country in the not too distant future. Nevada and Missouri wish they could change places with North Carolina.

The NBA wants to have a team in North Carolina.
It's why Charlotte was rewarded with an expansion franchise after the mess with Shinn. Silver and the other owners would be overjoyed if the Hornets got their act together. MJ is sacrificing a lot of money putting out such a poor product. And that means by extension the other owners are also missing out on money.


I still see news stories referring to Charlotte as a "mid-sized city" when Charlotte is the 16th most populous city in the United States. Salt Lake City is not even one of the top 100 most populous cities in the country (Fayetteville, N.C., has a larger population). Charlotte has more people than Atlanta, Washington, D.C., and Miami, and yet people think these cities have more people than Charlotte. Columbia, S.C., is a mid-sized city, not Charlotte.

People also are ignorant to the fact the first edition of the Charlotte Hornets led the NBA attendance in their first eight seasons (1988-89 through 1995-96) and finished second in 1996-97, which was most of the Chicago Bulls' run of its six titles. Charlotte has proven it can draw a large local following if the front office can assemble a competent team.
I agree with your premise. But to be fair Metro population is what truly counts when judging the City's population base. Atlanta Miami and Washington DC have larger Metro populations than Charlotte.

That being said, Charlotte does also have a fairly significant Metro population and is growing rapidly as anyone who lives here can tell you.

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Re: People don't talk enough about how awful the Hornets are 

Post#136 » by BigRedDog » Mon Jul 22, 2019 4:43 am

yosemiteben wrote:So the highlights for Mitch are two guys Cho drafted, a player that Mitch was only able to trade for because Kemba specifically wanted to go to BOS (something Mitch had no control over), a guy that hasn't played at all yet, and Bridges. I mean, that's not nothing, but that's hardly what I would call a strategic success.



To be fair i think you are missing the others point entirely. Their point is that we locked ourselves into a roster that was uncompetitive and had marginal players locked up with multiple years remaining. Suboptimal for trading.

Their argument appears to be that doing "nothing" and letting these contracts slide off the books was better than doing "something".

It's sorta like a political debate when a liberal engages with a libertarian and says "WE MUST DO SOMETHING" when the libertarian retorts that doing nothing is the best way to solve the problem.

I'm not saying either person is entirely correct. But I think it's clear what they are saying and for some reason you are choosing not to hear their answer in its entirety.

If this were a video game we all would have "simulated' the next 3 seasons and just skipped ahead. There was no magic solution to the preposterously bad situation the Hornets have been in the last couple of years. We were the walking definition of a treadmill team except that treadmill was cranked up to level 10 steepness.
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Re: People don't talk enough about how awful the Hornets are 

Post#137 » by yosemiteben » Mon Jul 22, 2019 5:12 am

Doing nothing is not a strategy. By definition it's the least that can possibly be done to help the team.

If our plan was do nothing and ride out three seasons, not trading Kemba for whatever value he could've been had for was monumentally stupid. As was trading Dwight for even greater salary commitments.
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Re: People don't talk enough about how awful the Hornets are 

Post#138 » by BigRedDog » Mon Jul 22, 2019 5:20 am

yosemiteben wrote:Doing nothing is not a strategy.

If our plan was do nothing and ride out three seasons, not trading Kemba for whatever value he could've been had for was monumentally stupid.



You've got to remember basketball is a business and we were trying to make the playoffs the last two seasons and continue to sell tickets.

If there wasnt a great offer on the table then perhaps he wasn't the one making the call.

I mean i get it, i would have traded him when he had 1.5 seasons left on his contract. That was the right time... but realistically we probably missed out on the next Cam Reddish.. not the next Ja Morant...

I think we all agree resigning Kemba to a super max when its nearly impossible for him to even live up to the contract the Celtics just inked him to would have been the dumbest of all the options.

I love kemba. Love him... but he's already peaked and he's an undersized PG on bad knees with a ton of mileage who seemingly hit the wall last year... he's cratering defensively and he's starting to sag offensively....

In all likelihood Rozier will be the superior player in Year 3 of these contracts and the Celtics will be desperately trying to get from out under his deal while we have a talented, movable asset on an expiring deal...

It didnt play out the way i wanted to either but at least we got to watch decent basketball the last 1.5 years and explore our options along the way.

I mean the Spurs got nothing for Kawhi Leonard, the Thunder got nothing for James Harden, the Knicks got nothing for Kristaps Porzingus... we arent the first team to get nothing for an asset. Sometimes it happens.

The moves crippling us right now are the ones like passing on Beal, Kawhi, Giannis, and Draymond, etc over and over and over again in the draft. We never approached the draft with any sort of seriousness or analytics. We just winged it over and over again on random names and flawed finished products... jeff taylor...pj tucker... etc... the draft never mattered to us...for $65,000/year we could have hired a guy with a working knowledge of Microsoft Excel who could have done better.

Blowing up the team ten years ago and then subsequently Ignoring the draft altogether is the reason we are starting from Square 1. Not because we didnt trade Kemba Walkler for Cam Reddish.
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Re: People don't talk enough about how awful the Hornets are 

Post#139 » by BlackOutBuzz » Mon Jul 22, 2019 5:34 am

Read on Twitter


Read on Twitter


Read on Twitter


The whole timeline is weird, the first interest in Rozier was reported by the Celtics as they were trying to create space to keep Horford.

We'll never know what truly happened, but this reads like the Hornets were resigned to using the MLE to find a stopgap PG, but Boston then pitched Rozier as an option and we bit.

This also allowed them to say they traded Kemba, instead of losing him for nothing: which has been the spin of choice since the "trade."

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Re: People don't talk enough about how awful the Hornets are 

Post#140 » by BigRedDog » Mon Jul 22, 2019 5:56 am

BlackOutBuzz wrote:
Read on Twitter


Read on Twitter


Read on Twitter


The whole timeline is weird, the first interest in Rozier was reported by the Celtics as they were trying to create space to keep Horford.

We'll never know what truly happened, but this reads like the Hornets were resigned to using the MLE to find a stopgap PG, but Boston then pitched Rozier as an option and we bit.

This also allowed them to say they traded Kemba, instead of losing him for nothing: which has been the spin of choice since the "trade."

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Yeah but i mean Mudiay, Payton, and McConnelll are like 3rd string level players.... and ish Smith is backup at best...i mean my god who else were we looking at Chris Duhon and Anthony Goldwire?

If you're going to put a semblance of an NBA team out there...one where your other players like Miles, Washington, etc are given a chance to compete on an actual NBA team you simply can't have those guys as your starting PG... Rozier allows us to run a legitimate (terrible but legitimate) offense out there... he's a functioning NBA level starting PG... those other guys are straight trash

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