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People don't talk enough about how awful the Hornets are

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Charlotte, N.C. 

Post#141 » by Najee12 » Mon Jul 22, 2019 7:05 am

fatlever wrote:I agree with your premise. But to be fair Metro population is what truly counts when judging the City's population base. Atlanta Miami and Washington DC have larger Metro populations than Charlotte.

That being said, Charlotte does also have a fairly significant Metro population and is growing rapidly as anyone who lives here can tell you.


As it is, Charlotte has the 23rd largest consolidated metropolitan statistical area in the country, which still is larger than Cleveland (the 33rd most populated CMSA in the United States), Indianapolis (ranked 34th) and is significantly larger than Milwaukee (39th), Oklahoma City (41st), Memphis (43rd), New Orleans (46th) and Salt Lake City (47th).

Washington, D.C., has a CMSA that pulls from multiple states (Maryland, Pennsylvania, Virginia and West Virginia), which bloats its numbers. Having the Baltimore area (whose CMSA is larger than Charlotte's) accounts for nearly half of the Washington, D.C. CMSA.

Atlanta's CMSA spans up to 39 counties and goes out to the Alabama border. If Charlotte's CMSA expanded out to a 90-mile radius like Atlanta's, it would include Columbia, S.C. (70th largest CMSA with more than 800,000 people), Winston-Salem, N.C. (85th largest with 671,000 people) and Spartanburg, S.C. (152nd largest with more than 300,000 people) -- making Charlotte slightly behind Detroit's CMSA for 12th in the country.

In any manner, it reinforces my point that Charlotte is not a "mid-sized city."
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OK, if you say so 

Post#142 » by Najee12 » Mon Jul 22, 2019 7:44 am

BigRedDog wrote:I mean the Spurs got nothing for Kawhi Leonard ... we arent the first team to get nothing for an asset.


San Antonio got a four-time all-star shooting guard who averaged 21.2 points, 6 rebounds and 6.2 assists per game for them this past season (DeMar DeRozan). There is no need to spin the Kawhi Leonard trade to Toronto as if San Antonio got nothing, all in an attempt to rationalize Charlotte letting an all-star player (Kemba Walker) leave for nothing.
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Re: OK, if you say so 

Post#143 » by BigRedDog » Mon Jul 22, 2019 8:39 am

Najee12 wrote:
BigRedDog wrote:I mean the Spurs got nothing for Kawhi Leonard ... we arent the first team to get nothing for an asset.


San Antonio got a four-time all-star shooting guard who averaged 21.2 points, 6 rebounds and 6.2 assists per game for them this past season (DeMar DeRozan). There is no need to spin the Kawhi Leonard trade to Toronto as if San Antonio got nothing, all in an attempt to rationalize Charlotte letting an all-star player (Kemba Walker) leave for nothing.



Fair enough i should have been more specific.

San Antonio got a marginal starting guard signed to a massive contract who can't guard a paper bag. A giant negative "asset" more commonly referred to as a liability. You could argue that they would have been much better off getting "nothing" than what they actually got.
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Re: People don't talk enough about how awful the Hornets are 

Post#144 » by JDuaneWayne » Mon Jul 22, 2019 11:25 am

I think at this point people are making **** up in their mind that fits their narrative and starting to believe it.

I don’t know how you excuse the Howard trade, you can pontificate all you want on he wasn’t going to accept a buyout (he would have) but that was a short sighted move to save some short term cash that cost more cash in the long run. That had to be one of the more head scratching moves of the past 5 years of the league.
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Re: People don't talk enough about how awful the Hornets are 

Post#145 » by Vanderbilt_Grad » Mon Jul 22, 2019 1:01 pm

yosemiteben wrote:First, if we didn't S&T, then all we had was the MLE. If we could have possibly gotten Rozier for the MLE, then we sure as **** shouldn't have paid him $10M more than that like we just committed ourselves to do.


They could not have, as I noted - and you skipped over.

yosemiteben wrote:Second, I say our FO doesn't get to claim the win on a S&T because they were totally at Kemba's mercy. If he wanted to go to any other place (or if he wanted to go to BOS when they knew they could have just used cap space), it would not have mattered how interested we were in Rozier because he wouldn't have been an option. It is factually accurate that the only way that Rozier was an option at the contract he received or anything above the MLE was because a choice was made by Kemba that our FO had no say in.


Cool. So it doesn't count because you say so. Got it.

yosemiteben wrote:It appears our strategy (which again Mitch should have set as his top priority when he first joined) was to offer less than the max to Kemba and just pray that we he would take it or we could work out a S&T to whatever team he wanted to go to. That is a completely indefensible strategy.


So you are just going to take an absolute position and tell folks defending it they are wrong period. Got it.
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Re: People don't talk enough about how awful the Hornets are 

Post#146 » by MasterIchiro » Mon Jul 22, 2019 1:12 pm

100% cheerleading Cho (like a dang Honey Bee) spanning multiple years, now leading the rebellion against Kupchak after season number one.

You folks can be the judge of that spin job. I have no comment.

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Re: People don't talk enough about how awful the Hornets are 

Post#147 » by BigSlam » Mon Jul 22, 2019 1:35 pm

Liver_Pooty wrote:We didnt even offer Kemba the regular max. Let alone super max. Super max had nothing to do with anything

I think it did. If the ceiling is higher it also lifts perception the floor.

If he was able to be offered $220mil and he was offered $160mil it looks like a massive low ball.
If he was able to be offered $180mil and he was offered $160mil it doesn't look like a low ball.

IMO a player (or any employee) should be paid what you think they are worth, not what you are able to pay them. I wonder if the Hornets had locked in on a price they believed Kemba to be worth a year or so ago, but optically that number looked a lot worse when all of a sudden he qualified for the super max this year.
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Thanks for the laugh 

Post#148 » by Najee12 » Mon Jul 22, 2019 4:14 pm

BigRedDog wrote:Fair enough i should have been more specific.

San Antonio got a marginal starting guard signed to a massive contract who can't guard a paper bag. A giant negative "asset" more commonly referred to as a liability. You could argue that they would have been much better off getting "nothing" than what they actually got.


No one who watches the NBA, is involved with the NBA or understands players looks at DeMar DeRozan as a negative asset. You're trying to make an argument for Terry Rozier (who has been the epitome of a below-average player his entire career), who is nowhere near the player DeRozan is.

It particularly is laughable considering Charlotte has another player who makes the same amount as DeRozan (Nicolas Batum) who is an eighth man-type player in the NBA. No one in their right mind would take Sh*tty Nicky over DeRozan.
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Re: Thanks for the laugh 

Post#149 » by Vanderbilt_Grad » Mon Jul 22, 2019 4:25 pm

Najee12 wrote:No one who watches the NBA, is involved with the NBA or understands players looks at DeMar DeRozan as a negative asset.

DeMar DeRozan is a negative asset. In another era that might not have been the case, but it is now.
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Re: Thanks for the laugh 

Post#150 » by BigRedDog » Mon Jul 22, 2019 4:33 pm

Najee12 wrote:
BigRedDog wrote:Fair enough i should have been more specific.

San Antonio got a marginal starting guard signed to a massive contract who can't guard a paper bag. A giant negative "asset" more commonly referred to as a liability. You could argue that they would have been much better off getting "nothing" than what they actually got.


No one who watches the NBA, is involved with the NBA or understands players looks at DeMar DeRozan as a negative asset. You're trying to make an argument for Terry Rozier (who has been the epitome of a below-average player his entire career)), who is nowhere near the player DeRozan is.

It particularly is laughable considering Charlotte has another player who makes the same amount as DeRozan (Nicolas Batum) who is an eighth man-type player in the NBA. No one in their right mind would take Sh*tty Nicky over DeRozan.



I could sit here all day and try to figure out the relevance between Nic Batum's contract and a trade featuring the San Antonion Spurs - Kawhi Leonard for the Toronto Raptors - Demar Derozan but I'm not going to.
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Kemba Walker contract talks 

Post#151 » by Najee12 » Mon Jul 22, 2019 4:44 pm

BigSlam wrote:
Liver_Pooty wrote:We didnt even offer Kemba the regular max. Let alone super max. Super max had nothing to do with anything

I think it did. If the ceiling is higher it also lifts perception the floor.

If he was able to be offered $220mil and he was offered $160mil it looks like a massive low ball.
If he was able to be offered $180mil and he was offered $160mil it doesn't look like a low ball.

IMO a player (or any employee) should be paid what you think they are worth, not what you are able to pay them. I wonder if the Hornets had locked in on a price they believed Kemba to be worth a year or so ago, but optically that number looked a lot worse when all of a sudden he qualified for the super max this year.


The problem with the $160 million, five-year offer is that:

a.) it was less per-year than what Boston offered Kemba Walker ($141 million, four-year offer).
b.) The average is slightly more than what Nicolas Batum gets for being a marginal player, compared to Walker being a multiple all-star player.

You can argue that $160 million was the most Charlotte was willing to offer, but it also was influenced by the fact the Hornets have several bad contracts on the books that it did not move (Batum, Bismack Biyombo, Michael Kidd-Gilchrist, Marvin Williams, Cody Zeller). Moreover, the Hornets knew that day was coming roughly two years -- it wasn't a surprise that Walker's contract was coming up, which is why the Hornets considered trading him during the 2017-18 season (more specifically, former GM Rich Cho wanted to trade him, but owner Michael Jordan overrode it and eventually fired Cho).

Moreover, trading for Timofey Mozgov's contract and then swapping it for Biyombo's deal added yet another year of bad money on the books. Again, Charlotte did that one year in advance knowing Walker's contract was expiring.

I would not be surprised if Walker's team looked at Batum's contract and questioned why Walker was getting a deal barely more than Batum's and Walker has been a considerably more productive player. Moreover, Charlotte's bad contracts are a reflection of the team's asset management, which is not Walker's fault.
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No one is checking for the Hornets 

Post#152 » by Najee12 » Mon Jul 22, 2019 4:50 pm

BigRedDog wrote:I could sit here all day and try to figure out the relevance between Nic Batum's contract and a trade featuring the San Antonion Spurs - Kawhi Leonard for the Toronto Raptors - Demar Derozan but I'm not going to.


Considering the Charlotte Hornets are paying a much worse player than DeMar DeRozan the same amount of money, I really doubt anyone who works in or follows the NBA closely would look at having Sh*tty Nicky Batum over DeRozan. If DeRozan is considered a "negative asset," then every player on the Hornets are considerably more negative assets because there is not one player on the Hornets who is better than him.
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Re: Kemba Walker contract talks 

Post#153 » by BigSlam » Mon Jul 22, 2019 5:48 pm

Najee12 wrote:The problem with the $160 million, five-year offer is that:

a.) it was less per-year than what Boston offered Kemba Walker ($141 million, four-year offer).

Stop looking at per year - it's moot.
That's like saying if Charlotte had offered Walker a 1 year $40 million dollar contract it's a better offer than the Boston $141 million four year offer because the Charlotte offer is more per year. Look at the overall value.
$160 million is more than $140 million - not less.

b.) The average is slightly more than what Nicolas Batum gets for being a marginal player, compared to Walker being a multiple all-star player.

Basing future contracts on previously awarded terrible contracts is just bad business and counter intuitive.

You can argue that $160 million was the most Charlotte was willing to offer, but it also was influenced by the fact the Hornets have several bad contracts on the books that it did not move (Batum, Bismack Biyombo, Michael Kidd-Gilchrist, Marvin Williams, Cody Zeller).

You don't know that. I don't know that. Only the Charlotte FO knows that.
Maybe, even if they had a zillion dollars in cap space they still only thought Walker's value was what they offered.

I would not be surprised if Walker's team looked at Batum's contract and questioned why Walker was getting a deal barely more than Batum's and Walker has been a considerably more productive player.

I would not be surprised if Walker's team looked at Batum's contract and thought "that dude is wayyyyyyyy over paid".
And Batum signed a $120 million 5 year deal. The Charlotte offer to Walker was reportedly $160 million over five years.
Since when is $40 million dollars more "barely more"?
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Re: People don't talk enough about how awful the Hornets are 

Post#154 » by BlackOutBuzz » Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:29 pm

Raw money, $40M is indeed a big difference, but not as much when you consider the cap differences between 2016 and 2019.

Batum's contract started at about 22% of the team cap... which was a discount, he actually could've gotten slightly more over a year less elsewhere.

Our rumored "best offer" to Kemba would've started at 25% of the cap, which is the max you can offer a player coming off his rookie contract. Rather weak for a 3-time All-star and 8-year vet.

Any earnest negotiations would've started at 5 years/$176M. That matches the Boston offer, adds a 5th year, and accounts for a little under 28% of the team cap. Kemba got 30% from Boston (his non-Bird max) and was eligible for up to 35%.

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Re: People don't talk enough about how awful the Hornets are 

Post#155 » by MasterIchiro » Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:46 pm

[quote="BlackOutBuzz"]Raw money, $40M is indeed a big difference, but not as much when you consider the cap differences between 2016 and 2019.

Batum's contract started at about 22% of the team cap... which was a discount, he actually could've gotten slightly more over a year less elsewhere.

Our rumored "best offer" to Kemba would've started at 25% of the cap, which is the max you can offer a player coming off his rookie contract. Rather weak for a 3-time All-star and 8-year vet.

Any earnest negotiations would've started at 5 years/$176M. That matches the Boston offer, adds a 5th year, and accounts for a little under 28% of the team cap. Kemba got 30% from Boston (his non-Bird max) and was eligible for up to 35%.

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It sounds like the Hornets deliberately offered Kemba less than market value, as they too know and understand these figures backwards and forwards. Kemba wouldn't give up a discount on top of an opportunity to win.

So, with Rozier coming up for restricted free agency while Boston needed to retain Kyrie, perhaps Rozier was a market read, as in a player who could be a contingency plan to Kemba leaving. The trade for Rozier was convenient and fortunate in that Hornets didn't have cap for Rozier otherwise, but there were other pathways to create cap space. Kupchak could have attached a small asset to a contract and compete for Rozier on the open market or simply signed Mudiay for a starting job. He wouldn't have turned it down for the backup gig in Utah where they brought in Mike Conley.
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Re: People don't talk enough about how awful the Hornets are 

Post#156 » by yosemiteben » Mon Jul 22, 2019 7:23 pm

Vanderbilt_Grad wrote:
yosemiteben wrote:First, if we didn't S&T, then all we had was the MLE. If we could have possibly gotten Rozier for the MLE, then we sure as **** shouldn't have paid him $10M more than that like we just committed ourselves to do.


They could not have, as I noted - and you skipped over.

You said we likely would have been outbid. I was saying if there was any universe where we wouldn't be outbid, then what we actually offered was super bad.

Vanderbilt_Grad wrote:
yosemiteben wrote:Second, I say our FO doesn't get to claim the win on a S&T because they were totally at Kemba's mercy. If he wanted to go to any other place (or if he wanted to go to BOS when they knew they could have just used cap space), it would not have mattered how interested we were in Rozier because he wouldn't have been an option. It is factually accurate that the only way that Rozier was an option at the contract he received or anything above the MLE was because a choice was made by Kemba that our FO had no say in.


Cool. So it doesn't count because you say so. Got it.

I'm telling you my opinion. You quoted me and specifically asked me about it. You can feel however you want or hold whatever view you want.

Vanderbilt_Grad wrote:
yosemiteben wrote:It appears our strategy (which again Mitch should have set as his top priority when he first joined) was to offer less than the max to Kemba and just pray that we he would take it or we could work out a S&T to whatever team he wanted to go to. That is a completely indefensible strategy.

So you are just going to take an absolute position and tell folks defending it they are wrong period. Got it.

Sorry you disagree with what I think? I didn't attack you, I laid out my views on this issue. Not sure how I overstepped here?
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Re: Charlotte, N.C. 

Post#157 » by fatlever » Mon Jul 22, 2019 9:15 pm

Najee12 wrote:
fatlever wrote:I agree with your premise. But to be fair Metro population is what truly counts when judging the City's population base. Atlanta Miami and Washington DC have larger Metro populations than Charlotte.

That being said, Charlotte does also have a fairly significant Metro population and is growing rapidly as anyone who lives here can tell you.


As it is, Charlotte has the 23rd largest consolidated metropolitan statistical area in the country, which still is larger than Cleveland (the 33rd most populated CMSA in the United States), Indianapolis (ranked 34th) and is significantly larger than Milwaukee (39th), Oklahoma City (41st), Memphis (43rd), New Orleans (46th) and Salt Lake City (47th).

Washington, D.C., has a CMSA that pulls from multiple states (Maryland, Pennsylvania, Virginia and West Virginia), which bloats its numbers. Having the Baltimore area accounts for nearly half of the Washington, D.C. CMSA.

Atlanta's CMSA spans up to 39 counties and goes out to the Alabama border. If Charlotte's CMSA expanded out to a 90-mile radius like Atlanta's, it would include Columbia, S.C. (70th largest CMSA with more than 800,000 people), Winston-Salem, N.C. (85th largest with 671,000 people) and Spartanburg, S.C. (152nd largest with more than 300,000 people).

In any manner, it reinforces my point that Charlotte is not a "mid-sized city."


we agree.... and i love geography talk :D well done sir.
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Re: People don't talk enough about how awful the Hornets are 

Post#158 » by BlackOutBuzz » Mon Jul 22, 2019 9:31 pm

MasterIchiro wrote:
BlackOutBuzz wrote:Raw money, $40M is indeed a big difference, but not as much when you consider the cap differences between 2016 and 2019.

Batum's contract started at about 22% of the team cap... which was a discount, he actually could've gotten slightly more over a year less elsewhere.

Our rumored "best offer" to Kemba would've started at 25% of the cap, which is the max you can offer a player coming off his rookie contract. Rather weak for a 3-time All-star and 8-year vet.

Any earnest negotiations would've started at 5 years/$176M. That matches the Boston offer, adds a 5th year, and accounts for a little under 28% of the team cap. Kemba got 30% from Boston (his non-Bird max) and was eligible for up to 35%.

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It sounds like the Hornets deliberately offered Kemba less than market value, as they too know and understand these figures backwards and forwards.


The more I think about and try to read the tea leaves... the more I think they may have decided that it was time to blow it up. The team as is minus Rozier plus Kemba on a 5yr/$181M deal is still under the tax (though I think the bigger tell is letting Lamb and Frank walk for very team-friendly deals).

The rumor was Kemba would've stayed for $175M, which would be only $3M/yr more than the alleged best Charlotte offer. I don't think they let that be the determining factor if they really wanted to keep him.

They can't just say they're tanking, and they also don't wanna give up Kemba for nothing. Enter Rozier: he's not likely to impact the win column much but could be an interesting trade chip down the line, especially with that declining contract.

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Re: People don't talk enough about how awful the Hornets are 

Post#159 » by MasterIchiro » Mon Jul 22, 2019 9:51 pm

BlackOutBuzz wrote:
MasterIchiro wrote:
BlackOutBuzz wrote:Raw money, $40M is indeed a big difference, but not as much when you consider the cap differences between 2016 and 2019.

Batum's contract started at about 22% of the team cap... which was a discount, he actually could've gotten slightly more over a year less elsewhere.

Our rumored "best offer" to Kemba would've started at 25% of the cap, which is the max you can offer a player coming off his rookie contract. Rather weak for a 3-time All-star and 8-year vet.

Any earnest negotiations would've started at 5 years/$176M. That matches the Boston offer, adds a 5th year, and accounts for a little under 28% of the team cap. Kemba got 30% from Boston (his non-Bird max) and was eligible for up to 35%.

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It sounds like the Hornets deliberately offered Kemba less than market value, as they too know and understand these figures backwards and forwards.


The more I think about and try to read the tea leaves... the more I think they may have decided that it was time to blow it up. The team as is minus Rozier plus Kemba on a 5yr/$181M deal is still under the tax (though I think the bigger tell is letting Lamb and Frank walk for very team-friendly deals).

The rumor was Kemba would've stayed for $175M, which would be only $3M/yr more than the alleged best Charlotte offer. I don't think they let that be the determining factor if they really wanted to keep him.

They can't just say they're tanking, and they also don't wanna give up Kemba for nothing. Enter Rozier: he's not likely to impact the win column much but could be an interesting trade chip down the line, especially with that declining contract.

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Looks alot to me like premeditation. A GM of Kupchak's seniority does not take monumental decisions lightly. He did not get caught with his pants down.
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Re: People don't talk enough about how awful the Hornets are 

Post#160 » by yosemiteben » Mon Jul 22, 2019 10:31 pm

Agreed BOB, I think all evidence points to us being willing to move on from Kemba and let him walk for nothing if a S&T wasn't presented by his team of choice.

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