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Prospect Thread: LaMelo Ball

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Re: Prospect Thread: LaMelo Ball 

Post#181 » by KEMBAtheMETEOR » Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:41 pm

Snidely FC wrote:somebody explain to me taking a guy who can't play off the ball or defend when Devontae Graham is currently your lead guard

This.

I'm all for drafting BPA regardless of fit, but 1) Ball has so many holes in his game that he can't be BPA and 2) There's basically no chance Graham/Ball are a good fit, so you're automatically making one expendable down the line. It's like drafting Jahlil Okafor when you already have Joel Embiid on your roster, probably worse since we already know Graham can ball and he isn't a 7'2 guy with severe injury history. It's stupid.

I have to think the organization understands this, and would only draft Ball if they don't want to pay Graham next year for whatever reason.
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Re: Prospect Thread: LaMelo Ball 

Post#182 » by Liver_Pooty » Mon Oct 12, 2020 1:13 pm

Snidely FC wrote:somebody explain to me taking a guy who can't play off the ball or defend when Devontae Graham is currently your lead guard


Main reasoning is we need more talent regardless of position, and hes more talented than Graham. Is he my number 1 choice? No, but I wouldn't fault the organization for taking a chance on him.
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Re: Prospect Thread: LaMelo Ball 

Post#183 » by LofJ » Mon Oct 12, 2020 1:25 pm

I'm not worried about LaMelo's defense. He's quick and long enough to be impactful if he puts in the work. What I question about him is his shot, his mentality, and his willingness to apply constructive feedback. If the organization believes his ego is mature enough to accept coaching draft him, if not stay far away.
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Re: Prospect Thread: LaMelo Ball 

Post#184 » by James Gatz » Mon Oct 12, 2020 2:54 pm

KEMBAtheMETEOR wrote:
Snidely FC wrote:somebody explain to me taking a guy who can't play off the ball or defend when Devontae Graham is currently your lead guard

This.

I'm all for drafting BPA regardless of fit, but 1) Ball has so many holes in his game that he can't be BPA and 2) There's basically no chance Graham/Ball are a good fit, so you're automatically making one expendable down the line. It's like drafting Jahlil Okafor when you already have Joel Embiid on your roster, probably worse since we already know Graham can ball and he isn't a 7'2 guy with severe injury history. It's stupid.

I have to think the organization understands this, and would only draft Ball if they don't want to pay Graham next year for whatever reason.


So there are two ways to look at this in terms of team building.

1) I like the fit with Graham and Ball

Offensively: Graham's efficiency dropped drastically in the second half of the season when he became the focal point for opposing defenses. He still shot well but imagine his percentages if there is less of a creation burden and he's actually able to shot off the catch more often instead of off the dribble. For Lamelo having a knockdown shooter at the other guard spot will be super useful by the simple merits of giving him more space. Also once Lamelo breaks down a defense being able to kick out to someone who can be a top tier secondary creator like Graham is a recipe for a basket. For the record, when they share the court together the ball would need to be in Lamelo's hands. That's where his value lays.

Defensively: Graham is small and does not have size or strength to defend any position but the 1. Lamelo has the size to defend the bigger guard every night. People are very down on Lamelo's defense, but I'm not. The dude has only ever played 12 games of real defense and showed flashes of great team defense. It's still a question mark but his size makes it easily possible for him to be at least an average defender.

2) Graham isn't a piece you are required to build around

I loved watching Graham last year. Dude is a good basketball player. Yet, what do people really think is his upside? IMO he could be a top 6th man on a title team or a solid starter on a good team. His size limitations mean he will be head hunted in the playoffs. Look at guys like Herro and Nunn, both who have more size. I also just don't see him ever being an all-star level guy. We shouldn't be making franchise altering moves to fit the needs of a guy who will likely not make an all star team.
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Re: Prospect Thread: LaMelo Ball 

Post#185 » by DY_nasty » Mon Oct 12, 2020 4:07 pm

LaMelo hasn't played organized defense in his life lol
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Re: Prospect Thread: LaMelo Ball 

Post#186 » by James Gatz » Mon Oct 12, 2020 4:26 pm

DY_nasty wrote:LaMelo hasn't played organized defense in his life lol


Come on man.

What is the line of thinking here? No teams in the NBL play organized defense? Teams in the NBL do play organized defense but The Hawks did not? The Hawks did but Lamelo was just subbed out or sat on the floor whenever he was on D?

It's fine to be out on Lamelo as a defender or worry that he doesn't have enough experience to play defense at a high level, similar to Wiseman, but that comment is so lazy.
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Re: Prospect Thread: LaMelo Ball 

Post#187 » by DY_nasty » Mon Oct 12, 2020 5:09 pm

James Gatz wrote:
DY_nasty wrote:LaMelo hasn't played organized defense in his life lol


Come on man.

What is the line of thinking here? No teams in the NBL play organized defense? Teams in the NBL do play organized defense but The Hawks did not? The Hawks did but Lamelo was just subbed out or sat on the floor whenever he was on D?

It's fine to be out on Lamelo as a defender or worry that he doesn't have enough experience to play defense at a high level, similar to Wiseman, but that comment is so lazy.

We are not gonna hype up the NBL bottom tier like its anything more than a graveyard for guys who've run out of cartilage and young guys too scared to go to Europe :lol: They could trim that league's talent pool down to 4-6 teams and maybe it'll be something worth propping up.

The absence of evidence that the guy can play defense is not indicative of limitless potential or something. If he wanted to be a good defender, he'd do it. Considering the skill of the individual players he's been in front of, he should be shaking down people every other time down the court. Lanky guards that aren't consistently assertive on defense aren't that common because if they're *not* high-tier/intelligent defenders they get targeted for easy fouls until they're unplayable. He's either gonna need a lot of time or a mentality change, its probably the mentality. He doesn't even know how to trap either lol

There's glaring stuff that sticks out. It makes no sense how a guy who operates almost exclusively out of the pick and roll has no idea how to defend it.

I'd be waaaaaaaaay different about Ball if he was being drafted as a work in progress, but he's getting treated like he's young Shaun Livingston or something and it makes no sense. He's more than likely massive development project. And I've looked at Wiseman like a project from the start as well. I've never once said the guy would be outplaying what many believe is the most improved player in the league or the main reason our team won half as many games as they did. Whether he's the next Samuel Dalembert or a more versatile Whiteside with a better head on his shoulders - that's a still a need filled that prevents us from relying on a biyombo/zombie zeller/WHG interior for the first time in years. The idea Ball's gonna demand a change in other guys' approach to the game is just wild to me.

But even aside from all that, you have to look at the tools and the things one can say with certainty. Ball has been all around the world and has never shown any interest in being a quality defender even when it would've been easy considering who he's been up against.
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Re: Prospect Thread: LaMelo Ball 

Post#188 » by amcoolio » Mon Oct 12, 2020 5:43 pm

I have to agree with DY_nasty, you can watch every single game Ball has played and its clear that he won't ever be on the same defensive level as a Malik Monk nevertheless a serviceable NBA player. He needs YEARS of training and coaching. The BBB league or whatever, guys aren't playing defense at all. Its worse than the G-League.

For me to take someone like that he has to shoot like Trae Young and instead he shoots like Michael Carter Williams. I just don't see it.
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Re: Prospect Thread: LaMelo Ball 

Post#189 » by 4pointkiller » Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:37 pm

Snidely FC wrote:somebody explain to me taking a guy who can't play off the ball or defend when Devontae Graham is currently your lead guard


Because Devonte isn't best suited as a lead guard. I see his role at the 2, taking over when needed. Aka Wall/Beal.
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Re: Prospect Thread: LaMelo Ball 

Post#190 » by 4pointkiller » Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:40 pm

amcoolio wrote:I have to agree with DY_nasty, you can watch every single game Ball has played and its clear that he won't ever be on the same defensive level as a Malik Monk nevertheless a serviceable NBA player. He needs YEARS of training and coaching. The BBB league or whatever, guys aren't playing defense at all. Its worse than the G-League.

For me to take someone like that he has to shoot like Trae Young and instead he shoots like Michael Carter Williams. I just don't see it.


This is madness. Ball is a 6'8 PG, Monk is an undersized 2. Many scouts have noted Ball's ability to defend and intercept passes. His older brother Lonzo is a great defender. Just because he likes to rain buckets doesn't mean he can't dig in when needed.
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Re: Prospect Thread: LaMelo Ball 

Post#191 » by DY_nasty » Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:08 pm

4pointkiller wrote:
amcoolio wrote:I have to agree with DY_nasty, you can watch every single game Ball has played and its clear that he won't ever be on the same defensive level as a Malik Monk nevertheless a serviceable NBA player. He needs YEARS of training and coaching. The BBB league or whatever, guys aren't playing defense at all. Its worse than the G-League.

For me to take someone like that he has to shoot like Trae Young and instead he shoots like Michael Carter Williams. I just don't see it.


This is madness. Ball is a 6'8 PG, Monk is an undersized 2. Many scouts have noted Ball's ability to defend and intercept passes. His older brother Lonzo is a great defender. Just because he likes to rain buckets doesn't mean he can't dig in when needed.

He can't even dig in when needed to protect his draft stock. If he locked in defensively against all the bums he's played against, then its just one less question to be asked. Instead, it fits right next to all the other glaring concerns. Playing the passing lanes in leagues nobody is checking for is not a gold star defensive display especially when he's sleep walking through the majority of the game on defensive end. There's been more talk about the NBL this year than ever before - and its not because the league suddenly got better top to bottom. People are trying to speak the NBL's relevance into existence.

Lonzo was also much stronger coming into the draft as well. And ffs 25% from 3 with a busted shot is not raining buckets

I swear it feels like there's two different players being talked about when it comes to LaMelo. What he might be one day and what he currently is couldn't be further apart.
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Re: Prospect Thread: LaMelo Ball 

Post#192 » by yosemiteben » Tue Oct 13, 2020 1:07 am

I don't really want Ball, but I'm not making any draft decisions based on whether or not Devonte Graham is on the roster. That seems crazy to me.
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Re: Prospect Thread: LaMelo Ball 

Post#193 » by Liver_Pooty » Tue Oct 13, 2020 3:55 am

yosemiteben wrote:I don't really want Ball, but I'm not making any draft decisions based on whether or not Devonte Graham is on the roster. That seems crazy to me.


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Re: Prospect Thread: LaMelo Ball 

Post#194 » by amcoolio » Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:08 am

Lets be clear Lonzo was a great defender coming into the draft and still is now. Lamelo is not even a comparison, its insulting to Lonzo
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Re: Prospect Thread: LaMelo Ball 

Post#195 » by James Gatz » Tue Oct 13, 2020 3:11 pm

amcoolio wrote:Lets be clear Lonzo was a great defender coming into the draft and still is now. Lamelo is not even a comparison, its insulting to Lonzo


Lonzo has been an excellent defender at the NBA level but that wasn't what was projected of him coming into the draft. I don't think Lamelo will ever be the defender that Lonzo has become but we should be aware that Lonzo wasn't a great defender coming in.

Spoiler:
He tends to die on screens, doesn't bump cutters, and isn't going to use his body to contain penetration. He's never been a physical defender, and he has a tendency to float a bit at times, which was easy to do on a team that gave up 75.5 points per game, good for 259th in the NCAA. Ball also has a tendency to get a little bit too upright in his stance, as he had some issues keeping quicker guards in front. He has good feet when he digs in, and he understands angles and distance, but he lacks the body and tenacity that Kidd possessed. Ball projects as more of an average defender at the NBA level, and while instinctual with length. - Source: http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Lonzo-Ball-7229/ ©DraftExpress


On the defensive side of the court, Ball is adept at forcing turnovers, but he does not have the overall impact that his physical tools would suggest … Ball struggles at times containing dribble penetration against quicker guards, which was particularly exposed against De’Aaron Fox, who exploded for 39 points against him in the NCAA Tournament … Ball also does not have great awareness when being screened, and he also could show more consistent effort to fight through screens and recover

https://www.nbadraft.net/players/lonzo-ball/
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Re: Prospect Thread: LaMelo Ball 

Post#196 » by 316Hornets » Thu Oct 15, 2020 4:57 am

In case anyone is concerned about whether LaMelo will be marketable, this is the ESPN NBA Draft Page https://www.espn.com/nba/draft/news

7 articles/links about LaMelo
2 articles about Toppin
1 article about Wiseman
1 article about Edwards


I'll be very surprised if LaMelo is there when we pick, seems likely a team like the Knicks will want to put this guys face on every piece of team merchandise.
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Re: Prospect Thread: LaMelo Ball 

Post#197 » by luciano-davidwesley » Thu Oct 15, 2020 7:36 am

316Hornets wrote:In case anyone is concerned about whether LaMelo will be marketable, this is the ESPN NBA Draft Page https://www.espn.com/nba/draft/news

7 articles/links about LaMelo
2 articles about Toppin
1 article about Wiseman
1 article about Edwards


I'll be very surprised if LaMelo is there when we pick, seems likely a team like the Knicks will want to put this guys face on every piece of team merchandise.

No one here cares and rightly so.
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Re: Prospect Thread: LaMelo Ball 

Post#198 » by DY_nasty » Thu Oct 15, 2020 10:50 am

Dante Exum had all kinds of commercials
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Re: Prospect Thread: LaMelo Ball 

Post#199 » by James Gatz » Thu Oct 15, 2020 1:59 pm

DY_nasty wrote:Dante Exum had all kinds of commercials


Did he? Legit don't remember that.


Also I in no way care how marketable a player is for our team. That's a problem for the billionaires. I just want a fun/good basketball team.
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Re: Prospect Thread: LaMelo Ball 

Post#200 » by 316Hornets » Thu Oct 15, 2020 8:45 pm

luciano-davidwesley wrote:
316Hornets wrote:In case anyone is concerned about whether LaMelo will be marketable, this is the ESPN NBA Draft Page https://www.espn.com/nba/draft/news

7 articles/links about LaMelo
2 articles about Toppin
1 article about Wiseman
1 article about Edwards


I'll be very surprised if LaMelo is there when we pick, seems likely a team like the Knicks will want to put this guys face on every piece of team merchandise.

No one here cares and rightly so.


NBA players definitely do. You think the Warriors have any trouble convincing free agents to play with Steph?
Who at 3? My board - Ratings
1 Lamelo 100
2 Edwards 99
3 Hayes 97
4 Wiseman 97
5 Okongwu 96

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