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Prospect Thread: LaMelo Ball

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Re: Prospect Thread: LaMelo Ball 

Post#61 » by yosemiteben » Sat Aug 22, 2020 9:02 pm

4pointkiller wrote:LaMelo plays like a man among boys and he'll continue doing it in the NBA.

A man that can't score. He plays in a bad league and can't score anywhere close to efficiently. That seems like a major red flag.
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Re: Prospect Thread: LaMelo Ball 

Post#62 » by 4pointkiller » Sat Aug 22, 2020 9:15 pm

yosemiteben wrote:
4pointkiller wrote:LaMelo plays like a man among boys and he'll continue doing it in the NBA.

A man that can't score. He plays in a bad league and can't score anywhere close to efficiently. That seems like a major red flag.


LaMelo had a huge growth spurt. Before that, he was the short kid that had to rely on flashy passes to make an impact. His shooting game will improve. He just turned 19 today.
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Re: Prospect Thread: LaMelo Ball 

Post#63 » by DY_nasty » Sat Aug 22, 2020 9:18 pm

4pointkiller wrote:
DY_nasty wrote:People saying Ball has *elite* court vision when he's been essentially playing high level scrimmages for the past two years bruhhhhhhhh


Zion played at some no name high school in South Carolina. If you have the talent, it doesn't matter where you play before the NBA. LaMelo plays like a man among boys and he'll continue doing it in the NBA. In case you haven't figured it out, NBA has become really soft with not allowing contact and that will make it easy for LaMelo to dissect defenses and get his shot or find the open man. His court vision is elite and you can find countless examples of him throwing full court passes to an open man.


Zion's improvement came from being around some of the best training staff in the business and his improvement as a ball handler from his final year in high school to his first year in the NBA is obviously not the norm - it is the exception.

Also, often times bigs simply aren't allowed that freedom to flourish as any kind of passer or offense initiator. Whereas for point guards, its their foremost defining quality. Its not about how soft NBA defenses are (and that's like.... if it were that easy, [i]every guard would be going off night in and night out, right?)[/i], its about how LaMelo legitimately hasn't seen a high level defense more than a handful of times at any of the non-NBA levels.

Throwing awesome passes is dope. Not hating on that. He hasn't had to run a real offense *ever* and he hasn't seen anything more stout than a mid-major's level of team defense more than half a dozen times. Throwing cool scrimmage passes is not the same as running an offense or even effectively and consistently creating shots for others.

The last guard who had to deal with a similar readjustment battle coming into the NBA was Darius Garland. And he looked absolutely clueless the majority of the season. Most of his floor time experience revolved around unlearning bad habits, instead of growing existing fundamental ones necessary for a full-time guard. And Garland had the benefit of having solid foundations of a great shooter along with all the minutes he could ask for since garbage time in Cleveland started in the 2nd quarter.
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Re: Prospect Thread: LaMelo Ball 

Post#64 » by DY_nasty » Sat Aug 22, 2020 9:24 pm

yosemiteben wrote:
4pointkiller wrote:LaMelo plays like a man among boys and he'll continue doing it in the NBA.

A man that can't score. He plays in a bad league and can't score anywhere close to efficiently. That seems like a major red flag.

hold on now

he scored 17 a game on a team that won 5 games in australia. he was even taking minutes from THE aaron brooks

i'm gonna need you to get that enthusiasm up
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Re: Prospect Thread: LaMelo Ball 

Post#65 » by 4pointkiller » Sat Aug 22, 2020 9:25 pm

How exactly are you discounting LaMelo playing against grown men, some with NBA experience, as compared to a college player playing against cupcake opponents? How many teams in the NCAA feature actual NBA players?
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Re: Prospect Thread: LaMelo Ball 

Post#66 » by 4pointkiller » Sat Aug 22, 2020 9:34 pm

DY_nasty wrote:
yosemiteben wrote:
4pointkiller wrote:LaMelo plays like a man among boys and he'll continue doing it in the NBA.

A man that can't score. He plays in a bad league and can't score anywhere close to efficiently. That seems like a major red flag.

hold on now

he scored 17 a game on a team that won 5 games in australia. he was even taking minutes from THE aaron brooks

i'm gonna need you to get that enthusiasm up


He only played in 12 games, 3 wins.

His final 4 games - 2-2:

48% efg
32% 3 on 34 shots
24.25 points/game
9.25 assists/game
9 rebounds/game
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Re: Prospect Thread: LaMelo Ball 

Post#67 » by DY_nasty » Sat Aug 22, 2020 9:36 pm

4pointkiller wrote:How exactly are you discounting LaMelo playing against grown men, some with NBA experience, as compared to a college player playing against cupcake opponents? How many teams in the NCAA feature actual NBA players?

Because you can be grown and bad at the same time? and in leagues where high level coordination and schemes aren't a thing?

The thing about the NCAA is that not every conference has the same level of play, but in places where it does excel - its still far, far beyond most leagues. When people talk up international play, they're not referring to Australia :lol: . They pick up the scraps of whoever is left after China the guys who still think they're above playing in Japan or the Philippines.

Even among the best of the those guys.... I'm sorry, but LaMelo isn't even outplaying Casper Ware over there man. He is plainly a project. If he puts in crazy work and turns that corner, cool. But he's not some Shaun Livingston type of prospect at all. He's a lot closer to Michael Carter Williams.
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Re: Prospect Thread: LaMelo Ball 

Post#68 » by DY_nasty » Sat Aug 22, 2020 9:41 pm

4pointkiller wrote:
DY_nasty wrote:
yosemiteben wrote:A man that can't score. He plays in a bad league and can't score anywhere close to efficiently. That seems like a major red flag.

hold on now

he scored 17 a game on a team that won 5 games in australia. he was even taking minutes from THE aaron brooks

i'm gonna need you to get that enthusiasm up


He only played in 12 games, 3 wins.

His final 4 games - 2-2:

48% efg
32% 3 on 34 shots
24.25 points/game
9.25 assists/game
9 rebounds/game

this is some of the most pleasant framing to communicate "played well in international meaningless games" i've ever seen :lol: he got hot playing on a bad team when the rest of the league stopped caring and the check from his dad cleared. mission accomplished

but if that's your boy, cool

i'm not gonna trash the guy and i think i've already made my point. he hasn't played the position with any of the expectations demanded of a successful starting point guard in a very long time and hasn't even been put in a position to be consistently tested against or assessed against a real team defense ever. you do not draft a scrimmage all-star #3 overall if you don't have to
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Re: Prospect Thread: LaMelo Ball 

Post#69 » by Braggins » Sat Aug 22, 2020 10:08 pm

It’s difficult to do a perfect comparison between the brothers because LaMelo has just 13 games in a league that isn’t quite the same as NCAA, but they share a similarly weird mold. But I would say that Lonzo has the meatier profile with outlier good efficiency, defense, and proven performance vs known competition whereas Melo’s slight physical and ball handling advantages aren’t as clear or significant.

There’s a sliver of star potential for Melo, but more likely is he going to be similar to or worse than Lonzo since there’s no clear proof that he either has the remedy for Lonzo’s weaknesses or matches his strengths. And if the statistically superior Ball already disappointed us once, why buy the hype on a slightly different and likely worse version?

It’s easy to see what a better ball handling version of Lonzo would be worth a #1 overall pick, but the bust risk is far too significant to be worth chasing that sliver of upside in the top 3, even in a weak draft.

Dean's concerns are similar to mine. I'm just not sure there is enough there to distinguish him from Lonzo to make me that confident after seeing how Lonzo turned out.

Lonzo had great IQ, good defense, and good efficiency, coming into the league and was proven to be able to elevate his team. He hasn't been a complete bust or anything, but hes turned out to be more of a role player, but even that hinges a lot on the strengths of his that Lamelo doesn't seem to have, or at least hasn't really shown yet. If Lonzo was a bad defender and/or not high IQ he would be straight up unplayable. Lamelo is a better ball handler, has a slightly better body, and his shot form isn't quite as broken, but unless he matches Lonzo in multiple areas that are currently question marks for him at best and surpasses him in a few areas wheres hes supposed to be better, its hard to imagine him being all that good and he seems to be the kind of player that if he doesn't get there has a high possibility of just being a complete bust.
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Re: Prospect Thread: LaMelo Ball 

Post#70 » by SWedd523 » Sat Aug 22, 2020 10:30 pm

Lamelo screams 20 points on 20 shots a night while getting absolutely abused on the defense.
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Re: Prospect Thread: LaMelo Ball 

Post#71 » by 316Hornets » Sun Aug 23, 2020 1:09 am

SWedd523 wrote:Lamelo screams 20 points on 20 shots a night while getting absolutely abused on the defense.


LaMelo actually has the tools to be a very capable defender. He averaged ~10 rebounds per 36 minutes in the NBL.

I think a lot of you might be getting hung up on the drama the media surrounds him with. Ignore that and focus on him as a player and maybe you'll see the gem.

Who at 3? My board - Ratings
1 Lamelo 100
2 Edwards 99
3 Hayes 97
4 Wiseman 97
5 Okongwu 96
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Re: Prospect Thread: LaMelo Ball 

Post#72 » by SWedd523 » Sun Aug 23, 2020 2:02 am

316Hornets wrote:
SWedd523 wrote:Lamelo screams 20 points on 20 shots a night while getting absolutely abused on the defense.


LaMelo actually has the tools to be a very capable defender. He averaged ~10 rebounds per 36 minutes in the NBL.

I think a lot of you might be getting hung up on the drama the media surrounds him with. Ignore that and focus on him as a player and maybe you'll see the gem.


Or I can go by what almost all "experts" are saying about him and what I've seen in the limited exposure I have to him.

to call him "disinterested" in playing defense would be putting it mildly
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Re: Prospect Thread: LaMelo Ball 

Post#73 » by SWedd523 » Sun Aug 23, 2020 2:17 am

Ball's jump shot is broken and needs to be demolished and rebuilt from the ground up. Right now it's a pushed, two-handed release that was likely developed from him trying to shoot from too far from the hoop when he was too young to have the strength to shoot correctly. That form has persisted and his crooked jump shot was lucky to climb up to 24% in the NBL after he started in the single digits for the first weeks of the season.

In terms of athleticism, Ball would be below average by NBA standards and doesn't have an explosive first step. Right now he relies heavily on his ball-handling abilities to get penetration and while he is tremendous with the dribble he may struggle against NBA players who are more disruptive with their hands than anyone Ball has previously faced.

At times Ball's effort on the defensive end is legitimately laughable. When he wants to show up on that side of the floor he has the length to get stops and has the IQ to diagnose actions and make proper rotations but sadly those plays are few and far between. If he is a top tier offensive player he might be able to overshadow the defensive concerns but if he isn't scoring at a star level he'll need to show the ability to compete on the defensive end.


https://in.nba.com/news/nba-draft-2020-lamelo-ball-scouting-report-strengths-weaknesses-and-player-comparison/1f1rzhvlpmd07101wa40lpeigh


Smooth but not an incredibly explosive athlete. Doesn’t get much pop off two feet or in half court situations, especially compared to other guards in his class … Set point on shot is a bit low and he tends to fade a bit at times. Shot selection can improve, he’s a threat to score from anywhere but sometimes pulls up for deep and contested shots that aren’t necessary … Thrives in a fast-paced game, with that can come loose play and high turnovers … Skinny, lacks strength in both the upper and lower body … Can get more action off the ball, tends to drift at times. Roams defensively at times as well, gambling and looking for runout opportunities …


https://www.nbadraft.net/players/lamelo-ball/


Ball is just an average athlete and lacks top level explosiveness and speed. He doesn’t elevate well and his lack of strength and leaping ability make it harder for him to score in traffic and score over length. It remains to be seen if he can put on enough weight and add enough strength to hold his own at the highest levels of play (although he’s got a much improved frame since last year).

Defensively Ball doesn’t bring the same effort and energy that he brings to the offensive end. He lacks the strength to guard bigger guards and his average quickness can lead to blow-by’s. He doesn’t always hustle back on defense and seems more concerned with the offensive end of the court.

His lack of defense will be highlighted when he gets to the NBA level.


https://nbadraftroom.com/p/lamelo-ball/


The yeah, but with Ball will often focus on his defense. This is not entirely unfair: Ball can be inattentive and lazy on the defensive end, occasionally appearing to take possessions off while losing track of his man by ball watching. The learning curve defensively is going to be sky-high for Ball when he enters the NBA. Teams will attack him early in his career. But if you look closer, there’s a good chance Ball can be an impact defender down the line.


https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2020/4/8/21211341/lamelo-ball-nba-draft-mock-scouting-report-highlights-video


a few examples
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Re: Prospect Thread: LaMelo Ball 

Post#74 » by chabber » Sun Aug 23, 2020 3:53 am

Ryan Russillo roasted Lemelo the other day on the ringer draft lottery podcast. He said watching full games of LeMelo play on that Australian team was an utter **** show. He was jacking shots like he was Lillard or Curry and his defensive numbers equate him as the worst defender in their league. He was getting toasted by marginal athletes and looked really bad against RJ Hampton when trying to guard him.

From what I've seen I'd stay away. Love his handles and his passing, but the shooting and shot selection is a glaring stop sign. Plus he's not a great athlete. He's just tall. Even on his highlights when he's past his defender but their still riding him, he gets no lift on his layups. He's way below the rim as a 6'8" guard. (Not talking about strait line driving dunks.)
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Re: Prospect Thread: LaMelo Ball 

Post#75 » by JMAC3 » Sun Aug 23, 2020 6:36 am

He is definitely the most polarizing prospect in this draft.

His top of the range outcome is very similar Luka, a big point guard who can dissect an opposing defense out of the pick and roll every single time down the court.

His floor to me is a low IQ chucker, who plays no defense, and a headache for the coach to manage with Lavar around.

The positives
Best feel for the game in this class when it comes to passing, it just comes natural to him. Open court or half court. Either hand. Sees the whole court at all times.

Finishing skills around the basket are next level, he has finishes I have never seen in my life. Can finish with both hands equally well, really good floater and touch around the rim.

Will be able to run pick and roll all game for a team and get teammates open looks.

The negatives
Horrible defender, low effort. Never played for a coach who cares if he played defense. HS he just cherry picked all game, wish he had played a year for a great college coach. RJ Hampton destroyed him.

Shooting- has great range and confidence. But has inconsistent form, shoots from his chest and often lands on one foot or shoots leaned way back. Has no real midrange shot.

Athleticism- lacks an elite first step or big vert. Was struggling a year ago to dunk uncontested at 6-5, he has improved here, but won’t be a plus athlete at NBA level. Struggled to beat bigger players off the dribble without a screen.

Lastly, I don’t think he has very much maturity. Watching his interview with Schmitz he didn’t seem to have a high understanding of the game, plays almost all on feel. Seemed like he was confused by simple questions and doesn’t have a history of winning without Lonzo.



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Re: Prospect Thread: LaMelo Ball 

Post#76 » by wilson115 » Sun Aug 23, 2020 7:35 am

JMAC3 wrote:Horrible defender, low effort. Never played for a coach who cares if he played defense. HS he just cherry picked all game, wish he had played a year for a great college coach. RJ Hampton destroyed him.

LaVar actually got one coach fired at Chino Hills. This after the guy coached the team to 30-3. The Balls left altogether when the new one wanted them to play defense and stop taking long 3s. Chino Hills still won state championships afterward, led by Lamelo's one-time teammate, Onyeka Okongwu.
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Re: Prospect Thread: LaMelo Ball 

Post#77 » by driveandkick » Sun Aug 23, 2020 3:48 pm

I think we are coming to a conclusion such as "LaMelo can't shoot" off an absurdly small sample size of 12 games in Australia. I agree his form is shaky which is obviously concerning, but how many compilations and videos have you seen of him just bombing threes all game when he was at Chino Hills and playing on AAU circuits? He's grown like a foot over the past few years, perhaps he just needs to adjust his shot some after growing so rapidly over the past couple of years. It can be difficult to catch up on these sorts of things. I think LaMelo's ceiling is a Ben Simmons type who can make spot up three pointers, that would be a damn good player to get out of this draft. Unfortunately, I'm not sure it matters because I think he's getting drafted by Minnesota.
2020 NBA Draft Charlotte Hornets Wishlist for #3:
1) LaMelo Ball
2) Anthony Edwards
3) Killian Hayes
4) Onyeka Okongwu
5) Deni Avdija
6) James Wiseman
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Re: Prospect Thread: LaMelo Ball 

Post#78 » by DY_nasty » Sun Aug 23, 2020 3:53 pm

driveandkick wrote:I think we are coming to a conclusion such as "LaMelo can't shoot" off an absurdly small sample size of 12 games in Australia. I agree his form is shaky which is obviously concerning, but how many compilations and videos have you seen of him just bombing threes all game when he was at Chino Hills and playing on AAU circuits? He's grown like a foot over the past few years, perhaps he just needs to adjust his shot some after growing so rapidly over the past couple of years. It can be difficult to catch up on these sorts of things. I think LaMelo's ceiling is a Ben Simmons type who can make spot up three pointers, that would be a damn good player to get out of this draft. Unfortunately, I'm not sure it matters because I think he's getting drafted by Minnesota.

They don't play defense in those circuits really. And when it started to happen, LaMelo did his usual which is defaulting to absurd, quick 30+ ft shots at generally meh percentages.

I really feel like ESPN and some other places are just talking this kid up as more than he really is just to laugh and trash him later when he can't meet these unfair expectations. He's not a bad prospect, but he's a huge project.
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Re: Prospect Thread: LaMelo Ball 

Post#79 » by BigSlam » Sun Aug 23, 2020 4:05 pm

driveandkick wrote: I think LaMelo's ceiling is a Ben Simmons type who can make spot up three pointers, that would be a damn good player to get out of this draft.

Simmons is an incredible play maker, but he is also really athletic and a plus defender as well.

Ball is neither of this things.


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Re: Prospect Thread: LaMelo Ball 

Post#80 » by JMAC3 » Sun Aug 23, 2020 4:53 pm

Yeah we have all seen clips of him hitting 30 footers, but what you don’t see is he shot 8 of them to make 2. He has never been a high efficiency player, nor has he played in a real offense with the ball not in hands 24/7.

Imagine he played for Michigan state or Kansas this season- you think he is going first overall?


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