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Prospect Thread: James Wiseman

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Re: Prospect Thread: James Wiseman 

Post#321 » by yosemiteben » Mon Sep 28, 2020 9:04 pm

DY_nasty wrote:
James Gatz wrote:
DY_nasty wrote:AAU stats are about as legit as monopoly money

So what are we to base our evaluation on? Just random chance that a physical large human will be good at basketball?

I'd rather use college stats than AAU ones but I'd rather use a larger sample than a super small one.

AAU gets their money from inflating stats and putting their premier guys in the best possible light for scouts - then scamming parents and schools when it comes to the other 99% of players who essentially get a carrot on a stick dangled in front of them. There's key matchups to watch and head to heads against the best of the best. But those are rare for a reason.

I agree with all of this, but doesn't feel like a great argument for why the number 1 prospect's underwhelming AAU stats should be looked past.

At the moment I'm more inclined to grab Okongwu, Hayes, or trade down than draft Wiseman. For me Wiseman is at Deni level of red flags / unknown production banking on potential.
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Re: Prospect Thread: James Wiseman 

Post#322 » by SWedd523 » Mon Sep 28, 2020 10:13 pm

I may be ignorant, but I feel like AAU ball isn't exactly conducive for big men to put up gaudy numbers.

From the little highlights and clips I've seen over the years, it's mostly just a run-jump-ball hog-no pass-jack shots-IMMA GET MINE style of basketball.
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Re: Prospect Thread: James Wiseman 

Post#323 » by Rays Pompadour » Mon Sep 28, 2020 11:08 pm

Wiseman is a risk. The small sample size makes it so. Evaluating him has to be at the 1000 foot level, not in inches or centimeters. ALL prospects become riskier when viewed that close.

Our company had an inspector who was an anal retentive dude. He failed more than his share of units due to some imperfection or other. QA loved the guy. But orders were piling up and customers were begging for product. So the plant manager went over to his inspection station and physically moved him back six feet. "Do your inspection from here," he said. Magically, the pass-through rate increased and rejections decreased.

There is a well-worn aphorism: paralysis by analysis. I think that applies to Wiseman like it did on our production line. If you, as an organization, trust your player development personnel and coaching staff to take the longer view of sustained success, then you can make a compelling case for Wiseman. If you're risk-averse, well, there's always free agency.
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Re: Prospect Thread: James Wiseman 

Post#324 » by KGdaBom » Tue Sep 29, 2020 2:41 am

Rays Pompadour wrote:Wiseman is a risk. The small sample size makes it so. Evaluating him has to be at the 1000 foot level, not in inches or centimeters. ALL prospects become riskier when viewed that close.

Our company had an inspector who was an anal retentive dude. He failed more than his share of units due to some imperfection or other. QA loved the guy. But orders were piling up and customers were begging for product. So the plant manager went over to his inspection station and physically moved him back six feet. "Do your inspection from here," he said. Magically, the pass-through rate increased and rejections decreased.

There is a well-worn aphorism: paralysis by analysis. I think that applies to Wiseman like it did on our production line. If you, as an organization, trust your player development personnel and coaching staff to take the longer view of sustained success, then you can make a compelling case for Wiseman. If you're risk-averse, well, there's always free agency.

Very intriguing way to look at the situation.
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Re: Prospect Thread: James Wiseman 

Post#325 » by amcoolio » Tue Sep 29, 2020 2:43 am

Wiseman's ball handling and footwork are so slow, I really don't know what you are seeing to make him worthy of a top 3 pick. He is going to get torched defensively if out of the paint.
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Re: Prospect Thread: James Wiseman 

Post#326 » by DY_nasty » Tue Sep 29, 2020 3:47 pm

amcoolio wrote:Wiseman's ball handling and footwork are so slow, I really don't know what you are seeing to make him worthy of a top 3 pick. He is going to get torched defensively if out of the paint.

Ball handling? cmon now. We bringing this same energy to everyone? What's Killian Hayes' offensive rebounding looking like. Nobody drafts a center for ballhandling. Its icing on the cake, not a make or break measuring stick.

And there were maybe a dozen lottery bigs with elite and NBA ready footwork out the gate in the last 10 years. Defensively - Gasol, Gobert, Bogut, (Whiteside before he got paid), Ibaka, Noah, etc... all these guys needed time and had less athleticism than Wiseman does right now.

He is not a Hasheem Thabeet kind of prospect
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Re: Prospect Thread: James Wiseman 

Post#327 » by yosemiteben » Tue Sep 29, 2020 5:32 pm

DY_nasty wrote:Nobody drafts a center for ballhandling. Its icing on the cake, not a make or break measuring stick.

Disagree. Decision-making, ball handling, and high BBIQ are what I'm looking for in a C. This article has really stuck with me (posted it before): https://www.theringer.com/nba/2020/9/4/21422487/nba-playoffs-bam-adebayo-draymond-green-marc-gasol

This is another interesting article on the current role of bigs on an NBA team: https://www.theringer.com/2020/9/21/21448847/anthony-davis-nikola-jokic-lakers-nuggets-game-2. Some relevant quotes:

Spoiler:
Could building with lower-cost centers be a formula other teams follow? We’ll see what happens, starting on draft night. Memphis center James Wiseman is widely considered a top prospect in the class, though he isn’t a “no-brainer no. 1 pick” like AD or Zion—or KAT, for that matter. In fact, some executives and scouts have him ranked outside of their top five rankings, and others have him out of their top 10. It’s not that he isn’t a good prospect. There’s actually little doubt that he’ll have a long career. Wiseman is 7-foot-1 with strength, speed, and superb athleticism. He could easily carve out a role as a rim runner who can be an imposing interior presence on defense. Teams just question his upside. Skeptics wonder: Can he become a shooting threat from the perimeter? Can he create for others? Will he show more awareness when defending the paint? How much will he improve his fundamentals defending on the perimeter? And if he doesn’t do any or all of that, then what path does that send the team down?

The NBA salary cap will determine rookie-scale contracts, and it’s currently unclear how the league’s recent financial losses will affect next year’s cap. But as of now, the no. 1 pick is projected to earn $12 million annually for the next four seasons. Every big on the final four teams in the playoffs is signed for less money next season except for Davis (player option for $28.8 million), Jokic ($28.5 million), and Kelly Olynyk (player option for $13.2 million). It’s a pricier investment than most teams are paying to get quality minutes out of the position. Does Wiseman eventually get paid over $20 million or even the max as a free agent, even if he winds up being good but not great? And in the meantime, does his rookie deal prevent a team from signing harder-to-find wings? The Timberwolves have the no. 1 pick and need someone who complements Towns and D’Angelo Russell. The Warriors draft second, and they’re in win-now mode.

Quality wings are scarce across the league, and shot creation remains the most important skill in the playoffs, so guards retain an important role. It’s no wonder teams are spending less on bigs, unless they are obvious superstars like Davis and Jokic.

Behind Wiseman, the draft is littered with big-man options outside of the lottery—like Maryland sophomore Jalen Smith, who can shoot 3s and handle; or Washington’s bruising center, Isaiah Stewart; or Gonzaga sharpshooter Killian Tillie, who would be a lottery pick if it weren’t for his injury history. The list goes on. Even if those players don’t work out, they’ll make about what Howard does: Next season, the 15th pick is projected to make $3.5 million and the 30th pick will make $2.1 million. The teams who hit on their late-first- and second-round picks will have contributors playing at bargain prices.


I get your point though, and I somewhat agree that Wiseman's flaws are more under the microscope than other top prospects.
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Re: Prospect Thread: James Wiseman 

Post#328 » by Liver_Pooty » Tue Sep 29, 2020 5:42 pm

Geez looking over some of the post and its almost like some think Wiseman has the same kind of mobility as a slumbering Tacko Fall or something.
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Re: Prospect Thread: James Wiseman 

Post#329 » by Braggins » Tue Sep 29, 2020 6:34 pm

yosemiteben wrote:
DY_nasty wrote:Nobody drafts a center for ballhandling. Its icing on the cake, not a make or break measuring stick.

Disagree. Decision-making, ball handling, and high BBIQ are what I'm looking for in a C. This article has really stuck with me (posted it before): https://www.theringer.com/nba/2020/9/4/21422487/nba-playoffs-bam-adebayo-draymond-green-marc-gasol

This is another interesting article on the current role of bigs on an NBA team: https://www.theringer.com/2020/9/21/21448847/anthony-davis-nikola-jokic-lakers-nuggets-game-2. Some relevant quotes:

Spoiler:
Could building with lower-cost centers be a formula other teams follow? We’ll see what happens, starting on draft night. Memphis center James Wiseman is widely considered a top prospect in the class, though he isn’t a “no-brainer no. 1 pick” like AD or Zion—or KAT, for that matter. In fact, some executives and scouts have him ranked outside of their top five rankings, and others have him out of their top 10. It’s not that he isn’t a good prospect. There’s actually little doubt that he’ll have a long career. Wiseman is 7-foot-1 with strength, speed, and superb athleticism. He could easily carve out a role as a rim runner who can be an imposing interior presence on defense. Teams just question his upside. Skeptics wonder: Can he become a shooting threat from the perimeter? Can he create for others? Will he show more awareness when defending the paint? How much will he improve his fundamentals defending on the perimeter? And if he doesn’t do any or all of that, then what path does that send the team down?

The NBA salary cap will determine rookie-scale contracts, and it’s currently unclear how the league’s recent financial losses will affect next year’s cap. But as of now, the no. 1 pick is projected to earn $12 million annually for the next four seasons. Every big on the final four teams in the playoffs is signed for less money next season except for Davis (player option for $28.8 million), Jokic ($28.5 million), and Kelly Olynyk (player option for $13.2 million). It’s a pricier investment than most teams are paying to get quality minutes out of the position. Does Wiseman eventually get paid over $20 million or even the max as a free agent, even if he winds up being good but not great? And in the meantime, does his rookie deal prevent a team from signing harder-to-find wings? The Timberwolves have the no. 1 pick and need someone who complements Towns and D’Angelo Russell. The Warriors draft second, and they’re in win-now mode.

Quality wings are scarce across the league, and shot creation remains the most important skill in the playoffs, so guards retain an important role. It’s no wonder teams are spending less on bigs, unless they are obvious superstars like Davis and Jokic.

Behind Wiseman, the draft is littered with big-man options outside of the lottery—like Maryland sophomore Jalen Smith, who can shoot 3s and handle; or Washington’s bruising center, Isaiah Stewart; or Gonzaga sharpshooter Killian Tillie, who would be a lottery pick if it weren’t for his injury history. The list goes on. Even if those players don’t work out, they’ll make about what Howard does: Next season, the 15th pick is projected to make $3.5 million and the 30th pick will make $2.1 million. The teams who hit on their late-first- and second-round picks will have contributors playing at bargain prices.


I get your point though, and I somewhat agree that Wiseman's flaws are more under the microscope than other top prospects.

I think his passing is a legit concern, but his ball handling seems like a strength if anything if you are comparing it to other 19 year old centers. It needs work for sure, but theres enough there to work with and develop.
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Re: Prospect Thread: James Wiseman 

Post#330 » by Vanderbilt_Grad » Tue Sep 29, 2020 6:42 pm

yosemiteben wrote:
DY_nasty wrote:Nobody drafts a center for ballhandling. Its icing on the cake, not a make or break measuring stick.

Disagree. Decision-making, ball handling, and high BBIQ are what I'm looking for in a C. This article has really stuck with me (posted it before): https://www.theringer.com/nba/2020/9/4/21422487/nba-playoffs-bam-adebayo-draymond-green-marc-gasol

This is another interesting article on the current role of bigs on an NBA team: https://www.theringer.com/2020/9/21/21448847/anthony-davis-nikola-jokic-lakers-nuggets-game-2. Some relevant quotes:

Spoiler:
Could building with lower-cost centers be a formula other teams follow? We’ll see what happens, starting on draft night. Memphis center James Wiseman is widely considered a top prospect in the class, though he isn’t a “no-brainer no. 1 pick” like AD or Zion—or KAT, for that matter. In fact, some executives and scouts have him ranked outside of their top five rankings, and others have him out of their top 10. It’s not that he isn’t a good prospect. There’s actually little doubt that he’ll have a long career. Wiseman is 7-foot-1 with strength, speed, and superb athleticism. He could easily carve out a role as a rim runner who can be an imposing interior presence on defense. Teams just question his upside. Skeptics wonder: Can he become a shooting threat from the perimeter? Can he create for others? Will he show more awareness when defending the paint? How much will he improve his fundamentals defending on the perimeter? And if he doesn’t do any or all of that, then what path does that send the team down?

The NBA salary cap will determine rookie-scale contracts, and it’s currently unclear how the league’s recent financial losses will affect next year’s cap. But as of now, the no. 1 pick is projected to earn $12 million annually for the next four seasons. Every big on the final four teams in the playoffs is signed for less money next season except for Davis (player option for $28.8 million), Jokic ($28.5 million), and Kelly Olynyk (player option for $13.2 million). It’s a pricier investment than most teams are paying to get quality minutes out of the position. Does Wiseman eventually get paid over $20 million or even the max as a free agent, even if he winds up being good but not great? And in the meantime, does his rookie deal prevent a team from signing harder-to-find wings? The Timberwolves have the no. 1 pick and need someone who complements Towns and D’Angelo Russell. The Warriors draft second, and they’re in win-now mode.

Quality wings are scarce across the league, and shot creation remains the most important skill in the playoffs, so guards retain an important role. It’s no wonder teams are spending less on bigs, unless they are obvious superstars like Davis and Jokic.

Behind Wiseman, the draft is littered with big-man options outside of the lottery—like Maryland sophomore Jalen Smith, who can shoot 3s and handle; or Washington’s bruising center, Isaiah Stewart; or Gonzaga sharpshooter Killian Tillie, who would be a lottery pick if it weren’t for his injury history. The list goes on. Even if those players don’t work out, they’ll make about what Howard does: Next season, the 15th pick is projected to make $3.5 million and the 30th pick will make $2.1 million. The teams who hit on their late-first- and second-round picks will have contributors playing at bargain prices.


I get your point though, and I somewhat agree that Wiseman's flaws are more under the microscope than other top prospects.

Makes me thing of Xavier Tilman rather than James Wiseman.

I do think that Wiseman can dribble & that he looks smooth athletically. His stats are open to argument, but my sense is that he'll be a good rebounder and will probably be able to defend the paint as he gets stronger. I just don't think that those things alone will make him a good prospect.
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Re: Prospect Thread: James Wiseman 

Post#331 » by amcoolio » Tue Sep 29, 2020 9:24 pm

DY_nasty wrote:
amcoolio wrote:Wiseman's ball handling and footwork are so slow, I really don't know what you are seeing to make him worthy of a top 3 pick. He is going to get torched defensively if out of the paint.

Ball handling? cmon now. We bringing this same energy to everyone? What's Killian Hayes' offensive rebounding looking like. Nobody drafts a center for ballhandling. Its icing on the cake, not a make or break measuring stick.

And there were maybe a dozen lottery bigs with elite and NBA ready footwork out the gate in the last 10 years. Defensively - Gasol, Gobert, Bogut, (Whiteside before he got paid), Ibaka, Noah, etc... all these guys needed time and had less athleticism than Wiseman does right now.

He is not a Hasheem Thabeet kind of prospect


How many centers in the league are playable in the last 5 minutes of a game without all three of shooting, passing or ballhandling?

And heck even Whiteside can move faster than Wiseman, and we all detest Whiteside.

https://youtu.be/K2XHtqbsVqQ?t=256

What am I missing here?
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Re: Prospect Thread: James Wiseman 

Post#332 » by Rays Pompadour » Tue Sep 29, 2020 11:03 pm

amcoolio wrote:
DY_nasty wrote:
amcoolio wrote:Wiseman's ball handling and footwork are so slow, I really don't know what you are seeing to make him worthy of a top 3 pick. He is going to get torched defensively if out of the paint.

Ball handling? cmon now. We bringing this same energy to everyone? What's Killian Hayes' offensive rebounding looking like. Nobody drafts a center for ballhandling. Its icing on the cake, not a make or break measuring stick.

And there were maybe a dozen lottery bigs with elite and NBA ready footwork out the gate in the last 10 years. Defensively - Gasol, Gobert, Bogut, (Whiteside before he got paid), Ibaka, Noah, etc... all these guys needed time and had less athleticism than Wiseman does right now.

He is not a Hasheem Thabeet kind of prospect


How many centers in the league are playable in the last 5 minutes of a game without all three of shooting, passing or ballhandling?

And heck even Whiteside can move faster than Wiseman, and we all detest Whiteside.

https://youtu.be/K2XHtqbsVqQ?t=256

What am I missing here?


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Re: Prospect Thread: James Wiseman 

Post#333 » by DY_nasty » Wed Sep 30, 2020 1:03 am

yosemiteben wrote:
DY_nasty wrote:Nobody drafts a center for ballhandling. Its icing on the cake, not a make or break measuring stick.

Disagree. Decision-making, ball handling, and high BBIQ are what I'm looking for in a C. This article has really stuck with me (posted it before): https://www.theringer.com/nba/2020/9/4/21422487/nba-playoffs-bam-adebayo-draymond-green-marc-gasol

This is another interesting article on the current role of bigs on an NBA team: https://www.theringer.com/2020/9/21/21448847/anthony-davis-nikola-jokic-lakers-nuggets-game-2. Some relevant quotes:

Spoiler:
Could building with lower-cost centers be a formula other teams follow? We’ll see what happens, starting on draft night. Memphis center James Wiseman is widely considered a top prospect in the class, though he isn’t a “no-brainer no. 1 pick” like AD or Zion—or KAT, for that matter. In fact, some executives and scouts have him ranked outside of their top five rankings, and others have him out of their top 10. It’s not that he isn’t a good prospect. There’s actually little doubt that he’ll have a long career. Wiseman is 7-foot-1 with strength, speed, and superb athleticism. He could easily carve out a role as a rim runner who can be an imposing interior presence on defense. Teams just question his upside. Skeptics wonder: Can he become a shooting threat from the perimeter? Can he create for others? Will he show more awareness when defending the paint? How much will he improve his fundamentals defending on the perimeter? And if he doesn’t do any or all of that, then what path does that send the team down?

The NBA salary cap will determine rookie-scale contracts, and it’s currently unclear how the league’s recent financial losses will affect next year’s cap. But as of now, the no. 1 pick is projected to earn $12 million annually for the next four seasons. Every big on the final four teams in the playoffs is signed for less money next season except for Davis (player option for $28.8 million), Jokic ($28.5 million), and Kelly Olynyk (player option for $13.2 million). It’s a pricier investment than most teams are paying to get quality minutes out of the position. Does Wiseman eventually get paid over $20 million or even the max as a free agent, even if he winds up being good but not great? And in the meantime, does his rookie deal prevent a team from signing harder-to-find wings? The Timberwolves have the no. 1 pick and need someone who complements Towns and D’Angelo Russell. The Warriors draft second, and they’re in win-now mode.

Quality wings are scarce across the league, and shot creation remains the most important skill in the playoffs, so guards retain an important role. It’s no wonder teams are spending less on bigs, unless they are obvious superstars like Davis and Jokic.

Behind Wiseman, the draft is littered with big-man options outside of the lottery—like Maryland sophomore Jalen Smith, who can shoot 3s and handle; or Washington’s bruising center, Isaiah Stewart; or Gonzaga sharpshooter Killian Tillie, who would be a lottery pick if it weren’t for his injury history. The list goes on. Even if those players don’t work out, they’ll make about what Howard does: Next season, the 15th pick is projected to make $3.5 million and the 30th pick will make $2.1 million. The teams who hit on their late-first- and second-round picks will have contributors playing at bargain prices.


I get your point though, and I somewhat agree that Wiseman's flaws are more under the microscope than other top prospects.

That's a whole extra step beyond ballhandling but go off :lol:
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Re: Prospect Thread: James Wiseman 

Post#334 » by DY_nasty » Wed Sep 30, 2020 1:03 am

amcoolio wrote:
DY_nasty wrote:
amcoolio wrote:Wiseman's ball handling and footwork are so slow, I really don't know what you are seeing to make him worthy of a top 3 pick. He is going to get torched defensively if out of the paint.

Ball handling? cmon now. We bringing this same energy to everyone? What's Killian Hayes' offensive rebounding looking like. Nobody drafts a center for ballhandling. Its icing on the cake, not a make or break measuring stick.

And there were maybe a dozen lottery bigs with elite and NBA ready footwork out the gate in the last 10 years. Defensively - Gasol, Gobert, Bogut, (Whiteside before he got paid), Ibaka, Noah, etc... all these guys needed time and had less athleticism than Wiseman does right now.

He is not a Hasheem Thabeet kind of prospect


How many centers in the league are playable in the last 5 minutes of a game without all three of shooting, passing or ballhandling?

And heck even Whiteside can move faster than Wiseman, and we all detest Whiteside.

https://youtu.be/K2XHtqbsVqQ?t=256

What am I missing here?

Look at whiteside at 19 then get back to me
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Re: Prospect Thread: James Wiseman 

Post#335 » by yosemiteben » Wed Sep 30, 2020 1:12 am

DY_nasty wrote:
yosemiteben wrote:
DY_nasty wrote:Nobody drafts a center for ballhandling. Its icing on the cake, not a make or break measuring stick.

Disagree. Decision-making, ball handling, and high BBIQ are what I'm looking for in a C. This article has really stuck with me (posted it before): https://www.theringer.com/nba/2020/9/4/21422487/nba-playoffs-bam-adebayo-draymond-green-marc-gasol

This is another interesting article on the current role of bigs on an NBA team: https://www.theringer.com/2020/9/21/21448847/anthony-davis-nikola-jokic-lakers-nuggets-game-2. Some relevant quotes:

Spoiler:
Could building with lower-cost centers be a formula other teams follow? We’ll see what happens, starting on draft night. Memphis center James Wiseman is widely considered a top prospect in the class, though he isn’t a “no-brainer no. 1 pick” like AD or Zion—or KAT, for that matter. In fact, some executives and scouts have him ranked outside of their top five rankings, and others have him out of their top 10. It’s not that he isn’t a good prospect. There’s actually little doubt that he’ll have a long career. Wiseman is 7-foot-1 with strength, speed, and superb athleticism. He could easily carve out a role as a rim runner who can be an imposing interior presence on defense. Teams just question his upside. Skeptics wonder: Can he become a shooting threat from the perimeter? Can he create for others? Will he show more awareness when defending the paint? How much will he improve his fundamentals defending on the perimeter? And if he doesn’t do any or all of that, then what path does that send the team down?

The NBA salary cap will determine rookie-scale contracts, and it’s currently unclear how the league’s recent financial losses will affect next year’s cap. But as of now, the no. 1 pick is projected to earn $12 million annually for the next four seasons. Every big on the final four teams in the playoffs is signed for less money next season except for Davis (player option for $28.8 million), Jokic ($28.5 million), and Kelly Olynyk (player option for $13.2 million). It’s a pricier investment than most teams are paying to get quality minutes out of the position. Does Wiseman eventually get paid over $20 million or even the max as a free agent, even if he winds up being good but not great? And in the meantime, does his rookie deal prevent a team from signing harder-to-find wings? The Timberwolves have the no. 1 pick and need someone who complements Towns and D’Angelo Russell. The Warriors draft second, and they’re in win-now mode.

Quality wings are scarce across the league, and shot creation remains the most important skill in the playoffs, so guards retain an important role. It’s no wonder teams are spending less on bigs, unless they are obvious superstars like Davis and Jokic.

Behind Wiseman, the draft is littered with big-man options outside of the lottery—like Maryland sophomore Jalen Smith, who can shoot 3s and handle; or Washington’s bruising center, Isaiah Stewart; or Gonzaga sharpshooter Killian Tillie, who would be a lottery pick if it weren’t for his injury history. The list goes on. Even if those players don’t work out, they’ll make about what Howard does: Next season, the 15th pick is projected to make $3.5 million and the 30th pick will make $2.1 million. The teams who hit on their late-first- and second-round picks will have contributors playing at bargain prices.


I get your point though, and I somewhat agree that Wiseman's flaws are more under the microscope than other top prospects.

That's a whole extra step beyond ballhandling but go off :lol:

It's a major part of it. Tough to be a facilitator and direct traffic if you can't put the ball on the floor. Bam, Jokic, Green, Gasol - all those guys can dribble in traffic. And for the second article, nobody is going to be an elite big in the modern NBA if they don't have a handle.
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Re: Prospect Thread: James Wiseman 

Post#336 » by Diop » Wed Sep 30, 2020 2:22 am

Dwight Howard has shown there is still value in the old style centres these play offs. Even just as elite role players.

Theis was effective as a stiff centre as well, his screens helped their offense, zeller style.
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Re: Prospect Thread: James Wiseman 

Post#337 » by amcoolio » Wed Sep 30, 2020 3:09 am

DY_nasty wrote:
amcoolio wrote:
DY_nasty wrote:Ball handling? cmon now. We bringing this same energy to everyone? What's Killian Hayes' offensive rebounding looking like. Nobody drafts a center for ballhandling. Its icing on the cake, not a make or break measuring stick.

And there were maybe a dozen lottery bigs with elite and NBA ready footwork out the gate in the last 10 years. Defensively - Gasol, Gobert, Bogut, (Whiteside before he got paid), Ibaka, Noah, etc... all these guys needed time and had less athleticism than Wiseman does right now.

He is not a Hasheem Thabeet kind of prospect


How many centers in the league are playable in the last 5 minutes of a game without all three of shooting, passing or ballhandling?

And heck even Whiteside can move faster than Wiseman, and we all detest Whiteside.

https://youtu.be/K2XHtqbsVqQ?t=256

What am I missing here?

Look at whiteside at 19 then get back to me


You make an effective point :lol: He isn't my first choice but if we draft Wiseman but I'll be optimistic that he'll be a beast
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Re: Prospect Thread: James Wiseman 

Post#338 » by DY_nasty » Wed Sep 30, 2020 3:21 pm

yosemiteben wrote:
DY_nasty wrote:
yosemiteben wrote:Disagree. Decision-making, ball handling, and high BBIQ are what I'm looking for in a C. This article has really stuck with me (posted it before): https://www.theringer.com/nba/2020/9/4/21422487/nba-playoffs-bam-adebayo-draymond-green-marc-gasol

This is another interesting article on the current role of bigs on an NBA team: https://www.theringer.com/2020/9/21/21448847/anthony-davis-nikola-jokic-lakers-nuggets-game-2. Some relevant quotes:

Spoiler:


I get your point though, and I somewhat agree that Wiseman's flaws are more under the microscope than other top prospects.

That's a whole extra step beyond ballhandling but go off :lol:

It's a major part of it. Tough to be a facilitator and direct traffic if you can't put the ball on the floor. Bam, Jokic, Green, Gasol - all those guys can dribble in traffic. And for the second article, nobody is going to be an elite big in the modern NBA if they don't have a handle.
And Bam never did it in college either while guys drafted for it like Mullen have taught NBA scouts and GMs to never prioritize ballhandling for a 7 footer unless they check off every other box first. Green was second round and a David Lee injury away from never even getting a real opportunity. Jokic went low because he failed athletically across the board (and still does but is a supreme exception because he's able to play at a high level despite consistently being the worst athlete on the court).

And there's plenty of all-star bigs that never had that ability or even displayed it prior to the draft. If you were to ask how many teams around the league would take a more versatile Deandre Jordan, they'd all say yes. A Drummond who plays within themselves. An LMA content to play without the ball more. Bynum without the drama. Etc. There's more to the position than Embiid/Porzingis/Towns type prospects.

My point is, you can't take an addition or icing on the cake and amplify it to the point where it overshadows the necessities and must-have qualities you look for -- or if you're bringing that level of scrutiny to players, then you must do it to all of them. I've never seen you guys come at Okongqu's ballhandlingplusdecisionmakingplusfacilitation of all things :lol:

If we're consistent on this level then many of the favorites of the board are plainly undraftable in the top 3. There's point guards on the draft board here who can't even drive and finish strong with both hands. I'm not even a big Wiseman fan but its wild how the red markers come out for this guy more than others who have far more glaring flaws.
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Re: Prospect Thread: James Wiseman 

Post#339 » by yosemiteben » Wed Sep 30, 2020 3:50 pm

DY_nasty wrote:If we're consistent on this level then many of the favorites of the board are plainly undraftable in the top 3. There's point guards on the draft board here who can't even drive and finish strong with both hands. I'm not even a big Wiseman fan but its wild how the red markers come out for this guy more than others who have far more glaring flaws.

Not sure where "undraftable" is coming from, I'm not saying Wiseman is undraftable. We barely know anything about Wiseman as a prospect, he played three college games and everything else is coming from AAU ball like two years ago.

I don't think Wiseman's faults are being disproportionately discussed.
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Re: Prospect Thread: James Wiseman 

Post#340 » by DY_nasty » Wed Sep 30, 2020 4:17 pm

*in the top 3

Wiseman's camp and progress has been ongoing and generally open since the Memphis debacle. Also, even from AAU to the summit to the brief glimpse at Memphis its been more of an overall improvement than Ball has shown in twice the time. And a big not being an NBA ready facilitator at 19 is far from the red flag that being largely one handed like Hayes is.

Don't want to seem like I'm arguing to argue but some of this stuff is kinda wild. You can't be an elite center without ballhandling and facilitation but somehow Dwight managed to never crack a 1:1 turnover ratio? cmon. If your center can't handle the ball but still manages to be a net positive on the court, you simply don't run the offense through them. Phoenix has made that adjustment to Ayton immediately. Its not even a hang up. His 3pt range and volume isn't too much a liability either.... Ballhandling from your PG not translating though? Kind of a big deal.

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