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Prospect Thread: James Wiseman

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Re: Prospect Thread: James Wiseman 

Post#341 » by yosemiteben » Wed Sep 30, 2020 4:31 pm

I mean...did you read the articles I posted? There's a reason that I want skilled Cs that aren't Dwight Howard style athletic low post dump off types. I'm not convinced a player like that can be built around and is worth investing in. I want a multi-faceted skillset because that makes me feel more confident that they have a high BBIQ and will be able to adapt to the league and the team they are on.

If you're going to have a C that isn't adaptable or a transcendent talent that projects to be a core piece of your offense, then I really don't feel like we should draft him with a top pick and commit that much cap space to him. We'd be better off plugging in fungible middle of the road Cs (Javelle McGee / old Dwight / Daniel Theiss / Nerlens Noel / Tristan Thompson / Biz / Favors / Kanter / Dedmon / WCS / Baynes / etc.), drafting higher upside prospects, and saving cap space for difference makers.
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Re: Prospect Thread: James Wiseman 

Post#342 » by Vanderbilt_Grad » Wed Sep 30, 2020 5:09 pm

DY_nasty wrote:*in the top 3

Wiseman's camp and progress has been ongoing and generally open since the Memphis debacle. Also, even from AAU to the summit to the brief glimpse at Memphis its been more of an overall improvement than Ball has shown in twice the time. And a big not being an NBA ready facilitator at 19 is far from the red flag that being largely one handed like Hayes is.

Don't want to seem like I'm arguing to argue but some of this stuff is kinda wild. You can't be an elite center without ballhandling and facilitation but somehow Dwight managed to never crack a 1:1 turnover ratio? cmon. If your center can't handle the ball but still manages to be a net positive on the court, you simply don't run the offense through them. Phoenix has made that adjustment to Ayton immediately. Its not even a hang up. His 3pt range and volume isn't too much a liability either.... Ballhandling from your PG not translating though? Kind of a big deal.

When Dwight was drafted his ball handling and passing were fine for what he was supposed to do on the court. Times have changed.
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Re: Prospect Thread: James Wiseman 

Post#343 » by Rich4114 » Wed Sep 30, 2020 5:59 pm

While times have changed and so has style of play, it comes down to who looks like the best player now and in the future. Wiseman looks like that to me, he can be a potential centerpiece and has the physical tools that are much more rare than other guys in this draft. I think the fact that the whole draft is looked at like a 2016 weak type of group, it's even more of a reason to swing for the fences with a Wiseman. At number 3, I think the decision for us will be easy especially if Wiseman is there.
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Re: Prospect Thread: James Wiseman 

Post#344 » by DY_nasty » Wed Sep 30, 2020 8:14 pm

Vanderbilt_Grad wrote:
DY_nasty wrote:*in the top 3

Wiseman's camp and progress has been ongoing and generally open since the Memphis debacle. Also, even from AAU to the summit to the brief glimpse at Memphis its been more of an overall improvement than Ball has shown in twice the time. And a big not being an NBA ready facilitator at 19 is far from the red flag that being largely one handed like Hayes is.

Don't want to seem like I'm arguing to argue but some of this stuff is kinda wild. You can't be an elite center without ballhandling and facilitation but somehow Dwight managed to never crack a 1:1 turnover ratio? cmon. If your center can't handle the ball but still manages to be a net positive on the court, you simply don't run the offense through them. Phoenix has made that adjustment to Ayton immediately. Its not even a hang up. His 3pt range and volume isn't too much a liability either.... Ballhandling from your PG not translating though? Kind of a big deal.

When Dwight was drafted his ball handling and passing were fine for what he was supposed to do on the court. Times have changed.

?

He's still an impact player on a finals team after a major career altering surgery and being on the back-end of his career in a different type of league than he started in. You guys can't say 'times have changed' then highlight a player who's changed with the times - pointing out that its obviously not some sort of impossibility for anyone *especially younger players* to adapt to a changing and dynamic NBA. The ability to adapt is part of the game, not a barrier.
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Re: Prospect Thread: James Wiseman 

Post#345 » by yosemiteben » Wed Sep 30, 2020 8:22 pm

DY_nasty wrote:He's still an impact player on a finals team after a major career altering surgery and being on the back-end of his career in a different type of league than he started in. You guys can't say 'times have changed' then highlight a player who's changed with the times

The only thing Dwight changed is he recognized that he's not a franchise player and stopped trying to do things that are expected of elite players. He stopped trying to do more than he was capable and become Biz.

I can see an argument in support of Wiseman, but this one ain't it.
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Re: Prospect Thread: James Wiseman 

Post#346 » by Vanderbilt_Grad » Wed Sep 30, 2020 9:10 pm

Rich4114 wrote:While times have changed and so has style of play, it comes down to who looks like the best player now and in the future. Wiseman looks like that to me, he can be a potential centerpiece and has the physical tools that are much more rare than other guys in this draft. I think the fact that the whole draft is looked at like a 2016 weak type of group, it's even more of a reason to swing for the fences with a Wiseman. At number 3, I think the decision for us will be easy especially if Wiseman is there.


Rich, let me quote the ringer draft page
Athletic marvel who flashes massive two-way potential, but in the short term will be best suited for a simple, rim-running role.


And Dean on Draft (who has him ranked 2nd)
He still had just 1 assist and 1 steal in his 91 minutes between NCAA and Hoop Summit, so he likely has some vision/instincts flaws. And we still cannot take his rebounding for granted, and seems to have some level of motor issues as well as an unproven shot. So there’s a clear downside risk in Wiseman with so many unanswered questions.


You may be right about the long run, but short term? There is significant doubt / risk.
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Re: Prospect Thread: James Wiseman 

Post#347 » by SWedd523 » Wed Sep 30, 2020 9:47 pm

So a 19 year old big man has some holes in his game and isn't fully developed?

Damn, that's wild
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Re: Prospect Thread: James Wiseman 

Post#348 » by yosemiteben » Wed Sep 30, 2020 10:07 pm

SWedd523 wrote:So a 19 year old big man has some holes in his game and isn't fully developed?

Damn, that's wild

The point I made that seems to have triggered this line of discussion is that "decision-making, ball handling, and high BBIQ are what I'm looking for in a C."

We know extraordinarily little about Wiseman as a prospect. We have 70 minutes of college game tape, tape from sub-AAU level highlight events like the McD's game, and AAU tape from over two years ago. That alone is a massive red flag.

From the game tape and scouting reports I've seen, I don't have any evidence that he is a high BBIQ player capable of directing traffic and being a reliable contributor to an offense. Those are the things that I personally want to see (or at least feel confident are able to be added to his game) in order to feel good about drafting a C this high in the draft.

It's not just that he has "some holes". He hasn't shot threes, and I haven't mentioned that once because I don't care too much if he is ever able to be a consistent three point shooter. I'm not too confident in his lateral footspeed and ability to guard the perimeter, but I also don't view that as necessarily disqualifying because we honestly haven't seen enough of him to be able to judge (this is why I wish he was doing the combine).

The problem for me is that he hasn't shown the skillset or high BBIQ that would justify picking him. I think OO shows much more situational awareness and BBIQ and I'm pretty sold on drafting him over Wiseman. Maybe that's riding the trend and banking too much on replicating Bam's impact, but that's where I am.
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Re: Prospect Thread: James Wiseman 

Post#349 » by James Gatz » Wed Sep 30, 2020 10:28 pm

yosemiteben wrote:
SWedd523 wrote:So a 19 year old big man has some holes in his game and isn't fully developed?

Damn, that's wild

The point I made that seems to have triggered this line of discussion is that "decision-making, ball handling, and high BBIQ are what I'm looking for in a C."

We know extraordinarily little about Wiseman as a prospect. We have 70 minutes of college game tape, tape from sub-AAU level highlight events like the McD's game, and AAU tape from over two years ago. That alone is a massive red flag.

From the game tape and scouting reports I've seen, I don't have any evidence that he is a high BBIQ player capable of directing traffic and being a reliable contributor to an offense. Those are the things that I personally want to see (or at least feel confident are able to be added to his game) in order to feel good about drafting a C this high in the draft.

It's not just that he has "some holes". He hasn't shot threes, and I haven't mentioned that once because I don't care too much if he is ever able to be a consistent three point shooter. I'm not too confident in his lateral footspeed and ability to guard the perimeter, but I also don't view that as necessarily disqualifying because we honestly haven't seen enough of him to be able to judge (this is why I wish he was doing the combine).

The problem for me is that he hasn't shown the skillset or high BBIQ that would justify picking him. I think OO shows much more situational awareness and BBIQ and I'm pretty sold on drafting him over Wiseman. Maybe that's riding the trend and banking too much on replicating Bam's impact, but that's where I am.


Well put. This echos a lot of my overall thoughts as well.

Wiseman has been ranked highly for a while now and I think people see his size and ranking and struggle to get past that to really examine him as a prospect. For me, he could end up being the best player in the class if other guys bust and he becomes an elite defender/rim runner. If we're shooting for upside with this pick I don't want a guy who has 10% chance of being Rudy Gobert and a floor of a rotation big who you could easily get for MLE like WCS, Whiteside etc.
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Re: Prospect Thread: James Wiseman 

Post#350 » by Hornet Mania » Thu Oct 1, 2020 12:24 am

Prime Dwight was a legit MVP candidate and defensive force. The game has changed and he wouldn't be a top 5 player in this style but he'd still be amazing, let's not go overboard with the centers are dead thing. If we knew Wiseman was going to be Dwight at his best sign me up 100%.

I remain skeptical, but I can see the upside. Honestly with such a small sample size it's a total shot in the dark, I can't say anything about him with certainty other than his tools are rare.
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Re: Prospect Thread: James Wiseman 

Post#351 » by JMAC3 » Thu Oct 1, 2020 2:43 am

I could be wrong, but it seems like many on this board who are big fans of Wiseman are using his lack of games as a strength. His lack of games leaves a ton of question marks in his game and gives more room for speculation.

With all this room for speculation many seem to think he can shoot, handle the ball away from the basket, pass etc...

It’s as if because there is not enough tape of him “not” doing these things it leaves the door open that he can. Versus a guy who has a ton of tape we have a stronger understanding of their strengths and weaknesses and it’s easier to place limits on their potential.


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Re: Prospect Thread: James Wiseman 

Post#352 » by 316Hornets » Thu Oct 1, 2020 2:44 am

Wiseman has had Anthony Davis comparisons. And, AD might just be the top player in the NBA right now.
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Re: Prospect Thread: James Wiseman 

Post#353 » by yosemiteben » Thu Oct 1, 2020 2:47 am

316Hornets wrote:Wiseman has had Anthony Davis comparisons.

Has he? Haven't seen that.
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Re: Prospect Thread: James Wiseman 

Post#354 » by JMAC3 » Thu Oct 1, 2020 3:02 am

316Hornets wrote:Wiseman has had Anthony Davis comparisons. And, AD might just be the top player in the NBA right now.


Lololol...Comparing anyone in this draft class to Anthony Davis is setting them up for failure.




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Re: Prospect Thread: James Wiseman 

Post#355 » by 316Hornets » Thu Oct 1, 2020 3:02 am

yosemiteben wrote:
316Hornets wrote:Wiseman has had Anthony Davis comparisons.

Has he? Haven't seen that.


https://nbadraftroom.com/p/james-wiseman/
"Anthony Davis lite"

https://jkylemann.wordpress.com/2018/02/21/how-good-is-james-wiseman/



On his draft comparisons, Wiseman said, “I would most definitely say Chris Bosh and Anthony Davis. Just how they could face up and attack the basket and how they move without the ball fluently. Like how they are able to run the floor, rebound and block shots. So most definitely those two”.
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Re: Prospect Thread: James Wiseman 

Post#356 » by JMAC3 » Thu Oct 1, 2020 3:14 am

Another thing is people saying he isn’t a top ranked HS player for nothing..

2019
1. Wiseman
2. Cole Anthony
3. Isiah Stewart
4. Anthony Edwards
5. RJ Hampton
6. Vernon Carey

2018
4. Bol Bol
6. Nas Little
7. Keldon Johnson

2016
1. Harry Giles
2. Josh Jackson

2015
2. Skal Labissiere
5. Henry Ellenson
6. Diamond Stone

2014.
1. Jahlil okafor

Sorry if I do not respect his high school ranking/tape or his per 36 numbers in college vs South Carolina State and University of Illinois Chicago lol (yes I know he played Oregon too).

Every year 7 footers are super high ranked coming out of high school because they are being guarded by 6-5 guys 80% of the time. I’m sorry but Vernon Carey and Isiah Stewart aren’t even going to go top 20 this draft- how do I know that if we saw 15-20 games of Wiseman we wouldn’t think the same thing?


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Re: Prospect Thread: James Wiseman 

Post#357 » by Diop » Thu Oct 1, 2020 3:30 am

I get the doubts, I just have doubts about all the prospects, which is why I’m happy to give any of them a fly
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Prospect Thread: James Wiseman 

Post#358 » by JMAC3 » Thu Oct 1, 2020 4:11 am

Him not playing a full college season wasn’t as telling as it could have been. Looking at Memphis schedule it’s not like he was going to play against any good big men in their conference anyways.

At least if he played in big ten- oturu, Jackson-Davis, Jalen Smith, Kaleb Wesson, Tillman and Garza.

Pac10- OO, Nnaji, Stewart

Memphis toughest games were Houston and Georgia and neither has a notable big. I respect wanting to play for Penny, but Memphis will coast to the tourney if they get this much talent in that weak conference every year.


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Re: Prospect Thread: James Wiseman 

Post#359 » by SWedd523 » Thu Oct 1, 2020 4:19 am

JMAC3 wrote:I could be wrong, but it seems like many on this board who are big fans of Wiseman are using his lack of games as a strength. His lack of games leaves a ton of question marks in his game and gives more room for speculation.

With all this room for speculation many seem to think he can shoot, handle the ball away from the basket, pass etc...

It’s as if because there is not enough tape of him “not” doing these things it leaves the door open that he can. Versus a guy who has a ton of tape we have a stronger understanding of their strengths and weaknesses and it’s easier to place limits on their potential.


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I think too many people are anti-Wiseman via looking through a vacuum and conveniently forgetting or ignoring the aircraft carrier sized holes in every other prospect's game. There's a reason why this is considered a weak draft with no clear top one or even top 3 players.

"I won't draft Wiseman because he's not Jokic on offense"

Is his lack of generational offensive talent really cause to put him behind Lonzo "Michael Carter Williams" Ball, Anthony "Needs a Lobotomy" Edwards, Obi "No Neck, No Hips" Toppin, and so on?
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Re: Prospect Thread: James Wiseman 

Post#360 » by MugzZo » Thu Oct 1, 2020 7:07 am

BigSlam wrote:TBH I don’t see the Wiseman to Drummond comparison.

Drummond is a lumbering, heavy footed dude who lives in the paint in both ends.

Wiseman appears to be a really mobile, agile fleet footed dude - who might also have some range on his J.

I’m confused at why Drummond gets brought up when discussing Wiseman?

Same with guys like Whiteside - another toally different player to Wiseman who is often floated around when discussing Wiseman.


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I see Wiseman of a weird bosh/embiid/dj hybrid.

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