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Prospect Thread: James Wiseman

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Re: Prospect Thread: James Wiseman 

Post#661 » by JMAC3 » Wed Jan 13, 2021 6:37 pm

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He's an arrogant douche bag Charlotte basketball hating butt face.


I get what you are saying, but in this podcast he really gives us a lot of love. Talks about Hayward being a great fit and how he wishes he was this good for Boston. Gives Terry some love, and he gives Lamelo love as well talking about how he impacts the game even if he isn't scoring or shooting well.

Russillo does the same, mentions how bad Graham has been and yet we are still 6-5.
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Re: Prospect Thread: James Wiseman 

Post#662 » by BlackOutBuzz » Wed Jan 13, 2021 6:40 pm

Yeah I don't know about this... from the first rookie ladder (Ball is 1).Image

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Re: Prospect Thread: James Wiseman 

Post#663 » by JMAC3 » Wed Jan 13, 2021 6:46 pm

BlackOutBuzz wrote:Yeah I don't know about this... from the first rookie ladder (Ball is 1).Image



Wiseman has been productive in his limited minutes, but if you break it down LaMelo is averaging 1.36 fantasy points (assists, blocks, pts, reb, steals, threes) per minute compared to Wiseman at 1.13.

And just from a positional value standpoint a 6-8 facilitator is always going to be more valuable to winning then a Center.

Embiid is a dominant player on both ends of the floor and is considered borderline top 10 player in the league. Is Wiseman going to be more impactful then Embiid?
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Re: Prospect Thread: James Wiseman 

Post#664 » by SWedd523 » Wed Jan 13, 2021 7:53 pm

Funny you bring Embiid up because he happens to have a 6'8"ish facilitator on his team and I certainly value Embiid higher than that guy.

It's almost like context matters
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Re: Prospect Thread: James Wiseman 

Post#665 » by JMAC3 » Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:06 pm

SWedd523 wrote:Funny you bring Embiid up because he happens to have a 6'8"ish facilitator on his team and I certainly value Embiid higher than that guy.

It's almost like context matters


Sure.... but my point is that the 8-9 guys ahead of him are scoring/facilitators who play guard/wing.

If you go back into 1990 no way Embiid isn't a top 3 guy just based on positional value.
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Re: Prospect Thread: James Wiseman 

Post#666 » by Braggins » Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:13 pm

Embiid is a top 3 MVP candidate right now and even if there were 8-9 guys ahead of him it would be because they are simply better basketball players and not because Embiid being a center somehow limits his value...

The best facilitator in the league right now is Jokic, who is also a leading MVP candidate, but apparently he would actually be more impactful towards winning if he were four inches shorter and listed as a SF, cuz 6'8" facilitators are just simply more impactful than centers and thats definitely how this works...
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Re: Prospect Thread: James Wiseman 

Post#667 » by JMAC3 » Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:22 pm

Braggins wrote:Embiid is a top 3 MVP candidate right now and even if there were 8-9 guys ahead of him it would be because they are simply better basketball players and not because Embiid being a center somehow limits his value...

The best facilitator in the league right now is Jokic, who is also a leading MVP candidate, but apparently he would actually be more impactful towards winning if he were four inches shorter and listed as a SF, cuz 6'8" facilitators are just simply more impactful than centers and thats definitely how this works...


Haha I am clearly putting the board on Tilt.

I would be willing to bet we don't see the top player in the league be a Center for the next 15 years.

If you don't think the position you play in sports has an associated value then you aren't watching sports.

Baseball
Star Shortstops will always be more valuable then Star second basemen.
Star Starting Pitchers will always be more valuable then Star Relief Pitchers.

Football
Star Quarterbacks will always be more valuable then Star WR
Star Defensive Linemen will always be more valuable then Star Linebackers.

Basketball
Star Wings will always be more valuable then Star Centers.
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Re: Prospect Thread: James Wiseman 

Post#668 » by JMAC3 » Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:35 pm

JMAC3 wrote:
Braggins wrote:Embiid is a top 3 MVP candidate right now and even if there were 8-9 guys ahead of him it would be because they are simply better basketball players and not because Embiid being a center somehow limits his value...

The best facilitator in the league right now is Jokic, who is also a leading MVP candidate, but apparently he would actually be more impactful towards winning if he were four inches shorter and listed as a SF, cuz 6'8" facilitators are just simply more impactful than centers and thats definitely how this works...


Haha I am clearly putting the board on Tilt.

I would be willing to bet we don't see the top player in the league be a Center for the next 15 years.

If you don't think the position you play in sports has an associated value then you aren't watching sports.

Baseball
Star Shortstops will always be more valuable then Star second basemen.
Star Starting Pitchers will always be more valuable then Star Relief Pitchers.

Football
Star Quarterbacks will always be more valuable then Star WR
Star Defensive Linemen will always be more valuable then Star Linebackers.

Basketball
Star Wings will always be more valuable then Star Centers.


It has been 20 years since we even had a player in the argument for best player in the league and that was Shaq for a 3 or 4 year run from 98-02. He was probably without a doubt the best player in the league for maybe 1 or 2 years in that stretch.

Jokic has been the closest thing to this and he can't even play one side of the ball.
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Re: Prospect Thread: James Wiseman 

Post#669 » by LofJ » Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:43 pm

Did Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett, and Dirk Nowitzki cease to exist or something? It has not been 20 years since a big was one of the top 5 players in the league.

In today's league wing initiators > bigs (all other things being equal). A guy named Lebron who has dominated the league for the last decade has a lot to do with that.
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Re: Prospect Thread: James Wiseman 

Post#670 » by JMAC3 » Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:01 pm

JMAC3 wrote:
It has been 20 years since we even had a player in the argument for best player in the league and that was Shaq


Duncan I dont think was ever the best player in a season definitively

KG was more of a 3/4 combo when he was in that discussion.

Dirk was never a center, but much like Duncan, not sure he was ever considered the best player in the league during a specific season.
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Re: Prospect Thread: James Wiseman 

Post#671 » by LofJ » Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:04 pm

JMAC3 wrote:
JMAC3 wrote:
It has been 20 years since we even had a player in the argument for best player in the league and that was Shaq


Duncan I dont think was ever the best player in a season definitively

KG was more of a 3/4 combo when he was in that discussion.

Dirk was never a center, but much like Duncan, not sure he was ever considered the best player in the league during a specific season.


I'll give you Dirk, but your other two statements are laughable.
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Re: Prospect Thread: James Wiseman 

Post#672 » by JMAC3 » Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:21 pm

http://bkref.com/pi/shareit/5ntSu

Custom table I made on Basketball Ref...

Here are his best years in Minnesota. Look at how much Center he was playing....
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Re: Prospect Thread: James Wiseman 

Post#673 » by Chapelchilla » Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:21 pm

You can definitely make a case for Duncan as the best player in the league several times between 1999 and 2007
his team won the title repeatedly and he was a multiple finals mvp while averaging about 23/12/3/3
With like 15 all star appearances
Not flashy, just great
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Re: Prospect Thread: James Wiseman 

Post#674 » by SWedd523 » Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:38 pm

I find it hilarious how someone can say this:

JMAC3 wrote:And just from a positional value standpoint a 6-8 facilitator is always going to be more valuable to winning then a Center.


Then when given Embiid and Simmons, two guys on the same team who are perfect counter examples of your...argument... you respond with:

JMAC3 wrote:Sure.... but my point is that the 8-9 guys ahead of him are scoring/facilitators who play guard/wing.


So is it a "6-8 facilitator is always going to be more valuable" or that there are "8-9 better guys than him, who happen to be either scorers or facilitators and/or guards or wings"?

You realize this is why so many people have completely tuned you out on this discussion, right? :crazy:


And then we have this perfectly succinct post:

Braggins wrote:Embiid is a top 3 MVP candidate right now and even if there were 8-9 guys ahead of him it would be because they are simply better basketball players and not because Embiid being a center somehow limits his value...

The best facilitator in the league right now is Jokic, who is also a leading MVP candidate, but apparently he would actually be more impactful towards winning if he were four inches shorter and listed as a SF, cuz 6'8" facilitators are just simply more impactful than centers and thats definitely how this works...


Hot take alert! Hot take alert! Some guys are better as basketball than others! :lol:


And for the record, in my personal opinion, If you told me to build an NBA team right now and every single player were available, you bet your ass I'm going with Nikola Jokic first. That dude is balling out of his **** mind right now.

He might be 3-4 inches too tall though... or whatever the goalposts are today.
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Re: Prospect Thread: James Wiseman 

Post#675 » by JMAC3 » Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:51 pm

SWedd523 wrote:
So is it a "6-8 facilitator is always going to be more valuable" or that there are "8-9 better guys than him, who happen to be either scorers or facilitators and/or guards or wings"?

You realize this is why so many people have completely tuned you out on this discussion, right? :crazy:


You think I meant every single 6-8 facilitator in the league is better than every single Center? This is seriously how you read/chose to interpret this statement? It is like having an argument with a teenager who is challenging every word choice you make.

Obviously I don't think guys like Kyle Anderson, RJ Barrett and Joe Ingles are better than Embiid... I thought some things were implied, but I will make sure I make sure all my statements have zero loopholes for you to jump into.



SWedd523 wrote:
And for the record, in my personal opinion, If you told me to build an NBA team right now and every single player were available, you bet your ass I'm going with Nikola Jokic first. That dude is balling out of his **** mind right now.

He might be 3-4 inches too tall though... or whatever the goalposts are today.


You are really going to take everything I say super literal huh. Obviously I am not saying simply making a player shorter is what makes them better...

Jokic is awesome right now, but no way I am taking him over LeBron, Durant, Luka, Greek or Kawhi... Obviously you are entitled to your opinion on this, but I would guess you are in the minority.
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Re: Prospect Thread: James Wiseman 

Post#676 » by SWedd523 » Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:10 pm

LeBron is 36 years old. You picking him #1 overall in an expansion draft?
Durant is 32 coming off a major injury
Luka... eh maybe, though he hasn't been as dominant this year, and good wings are much easier to find.
Giannis still can't make a jumper and hasn't shown the offensive skillset capable of winning a playoff series
I find Kawhi to be a generally overrated player.

Jokic is a 25 year old Center (GASP!) averaging a triple double on 58/41/82 splits, leading the league in PER, Win Shares, BPM, and VoRP while having a legitimate claim towards league MVP. He is a dominant offensive player that can fit with just about any mix of guys and will have an advantage against his opponent almost every single night since good Centers don't exist (or something, I dunno).
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Re: Prospect Thread: James Wiseman 

Post#677 » by JMAC3 » Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:20 pm

SWedd523 wrote:
"And for the record, in my personal opinion, If you told me to build an NBA team right now and every single player were available, you bet your ass I'm going with Nikola Jokic first. That dude is balling out of his **** mind right now."


Sorry you didn't say you building an NBA team right now meant it was an expansion draft. That is totally different.


SWedd523 wrote:


LeBron is 36 years old. You picking him #1 overall in an expansion draft?
Durant is 32 coming off a major injury
Luka... eh maybe, though he hasn't been as dominant this year, and good wings are much easier to find.
Giannis still can't make a jumper and hasn't shown the offensive skillset capable of winning a playoff series
I find Kawhi to be a generally overrated player.

Jokic is a 25 year old Center (GASP!) averaging a triple double on 58/41/82 splits, leading the league in PER, Win Shares, BPM, and VoRP while having a legitimate claim towards league MVP. He is a dominant offensive player that can fit with just about any mix of guys and will have an advantage against his opponent almost every single night since good Centers don't exist (or something, I dunno).



I am talking about for winning a title for next year or 2. That is how I consider who are the best players.

If we are talking expansion draft then a bunch of players would go ahead of LeBron... Zion, Morant, Tatum etc .. that doesn't mean they are better players.
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Re: Prospect Thread: James Wiseman 

Post#678 » by amcoolio » Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:23 pm

Jokic or Embiid were never a question, they are franchise guys. Who here has said that they aren't valuable. I've specifically said that I don't want to be paying 17+ million a year on a center unless they are on that level, because you can get the next tier of center for cheap. At the end of the day Jarrett Allen isn't that much better than Javale McGee were you need to spend 100+ million dollars on him when McGee can be had for a few million.

Wiseman is not on Jokic or Embiid's level. He doesn't have an elite skill and has major deficiencies in rebounding and defense that shouldn't be there with a guy his size with his body. He has a long way to go, and I firmly believe he can be a good player but when he is on his third team and contract. I don't know why some of you keep twisting "don't draft Wiseman, he's not worth it in the top 3" into "Centers aren't valuable and Charlotte doesn't need one".

Now Evan Mobley? He is lightyears ahead of Wiseman and would gladly spend a top 3 pick on him if we are lucky to get one. He was just born a few months too late.

Our best bet is to do a ton of international scouting and try to get the next Jokic, Nurkic, Vucevic, Giannis, Adebayo, Sabonis, etc. Pretty much all of those were drafted in the mid first or later.
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Re: Prospect Thread: James Wiseman 

Post#679 » by BigSlam » Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:09 am

Back to Wiseman:

I wonder if what he has been able to do so far and how he has done it after being out of basketball for so long has quieted all the doubters who were vocal of their distain for him prior to the draft?

He's been super impressive.........and fluid.
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Re: Prospect Thread: James Wiseman 

Post#680 » by Liver_Pooty » Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:12 am

BigSlam wrote:Back to Wiseman:

I wonder if what he has been able to do so far and how he has done it after being out of basketball for so long has quieted all the doubters who were vocal of their distain for him prior to the draft?

He's been super impressive.........and fluid.


I'm still waiting for a response from aome how he is like a slow lumbering Whiteside. Never understood that
Balllin wrote:Zion Williamson is 6-5, with a 6-10 wingspan. I see him as a slightly better Kenneth Faried.

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