RealGM

JMAC3 wrote:

BlackOutBuzz wrote:Yeah I don't know about this... from the first rookie ladder (Ball is 1).

Wiseman has been productive in his limited minutes, but if you break it down LaMelo is averaging 1.36 fantasy points (assists, blocks, pts, reb, steals, threes) per minute compared to Wiseman at 1.13.

When did fantasy points become a major factor in prospect evaluation?

JMAC3 wrote:

BlackOutBuzz wrote:Yeah I don't know about this... from the first rookie ladder (Ball is 1).

And just from a positional value standpoint a 6-8 facilitator is always going to be more valuable to winning then a Center.

I disagree. The flavour of the month however is positionless basketball and wings though.

luciano-davidwesley wrote:
When did fantasy points become a major factor in prospect evaluation?

It definitely isn't, just a tool to look at how productive players are on a per minute basis.

Liver_Pooty wrote:

BigSlam wrote:Back to Wiseman:

I wonder if what he has been able to do so far and how he has done it after being out of basketball for so long has quieted all the doubters who were vocal of their distain for him prior to the draft?

He's been super impressive.........and fluid.

I'm still waiting for a response from aome how he is like a slow lumbering Whiteside. Never understood that

Have you watched him try to guard a ball handler on the perimeter yet? He's getting lit up. Even in drop coverage guys are flying by him. He's length allows him to make up for it in certain moments, but it's not been promising.

I was too low on Wiseman predraft, but all of my concerns are still there. He isn't an elite rebounder, has 3 assist to 17 TOs, and is bad defensively. It's also 10 games into the season, so I'm hopeful he will improve. Seems like a good kid and his highlights are a blast. The defense will certainly get better, can't get much worse, but the feel for passing isn't something guys tend to make huge strides in.

I'm still very glad we didn't get the opportunity to draft him. I believe we would have taken him had we landed at 1 or 2. After watching LaMelo I feel vindicated that he's the best guy in this draft.

James Gatz wrote:

Liver_Pooty wrote:

BigSlam wrote:Back to Wiseman:

I wonder if what he has been able to do so far and how he has done it after being out of basketball for so long has quieted all the doubters who were vocal of their distain for him prior to the draft?

He's been super impressive.........and fluid.

I'm still waiting for a response from aome how he is like a slow lumbering Whiteside. Never understood that

Have you watched him try to guard a ball handler on the perimeter yet? He's getting lit up. Even in drop coverage guys are flying by him. He's length allows him to make up for it in certain moments, but it's not been promising.

I was too low on Wiseman predraft, but all of my concerns are still there. He isn't an elite rebounder, has 3 assist to 17 TOs, and is bad defensively. It's also 10 games into the season, so I'm hopeful he will improve. Seems like a good kid and his highlights are a blast. The defense will certainly get better, can't get much worse, but the feel for passing isn't something guys tend to make huge strides in.

I'm still very glad we didn't get the opportunity to draft him. I believe we would have taken him had we landed at 1 or 2. After watching LaMelo I feel vindicated that he's the best guy in this draft.

Watched 2 of his games. Still don't get the Whiteside comparisons. Im more than happy with Ball, and would take him over Wiseman currently.

Obviously Wiseman has shown flashes that he could be really good, but overall he has not been stellar or made a huge impact. Statistically he has been a slower starter and I wonder if there is a history of bigs who were similar.

Who is the last center to take this route?

Looking back at game logs, Embiid and Towns were dominant from day 1. I say these two first because for where they were drafted and style they play they best matchup to Wiseman hype.


Jokic was a second rounder so the first half of the season he did not play a ton because him and Nurkic were splitting time. His path is so different it is hard to compare.

Bam was not seen as a great pick from day 1, wasn't dominate in college and really was picked higher than most had him projected at 14. He also was backing up Whiteside to start career and did not have hype or opportunity that Wiseman has.

Gobert was a completely different player as well and was a late first.

I am sure there are other examples of guys from older times who were slow starters as a top 5 pick as a big and then emerged as a star later on, but none are coming to my mind right now. Does anyone know of a player that comes to mind?

JMAC3 wrote:Obviously Wiseman has shown flashes that he could be really good, but overall he has not been stellar or made a huge impact. Statistically he has been a slower starter and I wonder if there is a history of bigs who were similar.

Who is the last center to take this route?

Looking back at game logs, Embiid and Towns were dominant from day 1. I say these two first because for where they were drafted and style they play they best matchup to Wiseman hype.


Jokic was a second rounder so the first half of the season he did not play a ton because him and Nurkic were splitting time. His path is so different it is hard to compare.

Bam was not seen as a great pick from day 1, wasn't dominate in college and really was picked higher than most had him projected at 14. He also was backing up Whiteside to start career and did not have hype or opportunity that Wiseman has.

Gobert was a completely different player as well and was a late first.

I am sure there are other examples of guys from older times who were slow starters as a top 5 pick as a big and then emerged as a star later on, but none are coming to my mind right now. Does anyone know of a player that comes to mind?

Did some more research on this quick. Aldridge, Dwight and Cousins weren't awesome their rookie years and they all become allstars so it definitely doesn't have to be this year.

I'll admit I can't let Wiseman go. I wanted him bad last year and was willing to trade LaMelo and this years #1 to get him before the season (and most indications are Mitch and the FO thought hard about it).

Fortunately I was dead wrong about that one but he is available.

I would do Rozier, Hayward and PJ for Wiseman, Wiggins, and #7.

cornchip wrote:I'll admit I can't let Wiseman go. I wanted him bad last year and was willing to trade LaMelo and this years #1 to get him before the season (and most indications are Mitch and the FO thought hard about it).

Fortunately I was dead wrong about that one but he is available.

I would do Rozier, Hayward and PJ for Wiseman, Wiggins, and #7.

I realize fans have a tendency to overrate their own players, but I honestly think we’d be giving up the three best players in this deal

driveandkick wrote:

cornchip wrote:I'll admit I can't let Wiseman go. I wanted him bad last year and was willing to trade LaMelo and this years #1 to get him before the season (and most indications are Mitch and the FO thought hard about it).

Fortunately I was dead wrong about that one but he is available.

I would do Rozier, Hayward and PJ for Wiseman, Wiggins, and #7.

I realize fans have a tendency to overrate their own players, but I honestly think we’d be giving up the three best players in this deal

I would say we're giving them 2 out of 3 (or 3 of 4). At least at this point, Wiggins is still probably better than PJ.

It's amazing how much Wiseman's standing has fallen among the sports fan consensus. I wonder if GMs have been similarly moved or if they're taking the long view.

Personally I think he may still be a fine player but I am no longer very confident he will become anything close to his best-case comps (Howard, Robinson, etc).

Rozier Hayward and PJ for 7 Wiggins and Wiseman is wonderful if we want to piss off Lamelo and win 20 games next season. It's okay to finally win some games and not be rebuilding for another 5 years.

Wiseman doesn't have the agility, defensive toughness or rebounding skill to warrant spending a bunch of assets for him. There are plenty of bigs in the next couple years coming out that have more suited NBA skills for us. He's like a poor man's Myles Turner, I really just don't see the appeal or fit. Okongwu would have been perfect

Chances of a player becoming a superstar after not showing much their rookie year goes down significantly.

At this point, I would rather gamble he still isn't that good again this year, and buy super super low on him after this season.

Vs, buying kinda low now and him just not being very good.

I think Warriors asking price will be too high for me. I would rather take a flyer on Bagley.

If the Warriors saw something in Wiseman where he could be a franchise big man, they wouldn't be including him in trades

No matter how much the Warriors are trying to win now, if you have even an Ayton level prospect, the Warriors are smart enough not to trade him

The fact they are using him as a trade piece after one year! means we shouldn't deplete assets

Putting aside the fact that Wiseman was a 19-year-old seven footer, I said prior to last season that I wasn't going to hold it against a rookie if they struggled to make the adjustment after the COVID offseason full of uncertainty and had to start the season roughly a month after being drafted to his team vs 4 months in a normal season, no summer league, minimal training camp, etc.

The ones who made the adjustment to the NBA get extra props from me, but I'm willing to overlook his rookie season, judge him as the top prospect he was eight months ago, and would be thrilled to bring him in, work him in slowly like we would with any rookie, and reap the benefits later.

I'd give the Warriors 11 for him. They'd probably laugh and hang up though.

Liver_Pooty wrote:I'd give the Warriors 11 for him. They'd probably laugh and hang up though.

I agree, I wouldn't give up another asset outside of 11. The problem is the Warriors probably don't want another draft pick since they already own 7 and 14, it would probably have to be part of a three way deal.

I also think there is a chance the player drafted at 11 is just better than Wiseman at this point. I have heard that after watching him play this season, he would likely fall outside the top 10 if he were put back in this draft. It sounds wild, but I also think Moody, Kai or Sengun might just be better than Wiseman at basketball.

I trust Mr. Kupchak to make a good decision on the score of Wiseman's potential. He has all the information from last year, plus the data from a rookie season.

Hayward/Roizer+11 for Wiseman and 7 would be absolute bank robbery by us. Hayward won't play enough games next season to have an actual impact, and Terry would be missed, but he is also gonna demand a big contract soon.