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Prospect Thread: Obi Toppin

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Re: Prospect Thread: Obi Toppin 

Post#81 » by MasterIchiro » Fri Sep 4, 2020 12:05 am

KGdaBom wrote:
yosemiteben wrote:Frank Kaminsky also had elite offensive efficiency, higher than Obi. Substitute straight line athleticism for BBIQ and it feels like they have similar attributes.

I checked efficiency for each.
Kaminsky .573 Efg
Toppin .679 Efg

Toppin much higher. What efficiency stat are you using?


Wow Toppin blows away Frank in effective field goal percentage. And are we comparing Toppin in his second year of college ball to Kaminsky with 4 years. Experience counts more than age. Kaminsky is also a horrible athlete. Toppin is one of the top athletes in this class.

Seems like a biased comparison.
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Re: Prospect Thread: Obi Toppin 

Post#82 » by yosemiteben » Fri Sep 4, 2020 12:11 am

Believe Toppin and Frank were the same age come draft time. And yes Frank was not as athletic, hence the comment about trading BBIQ for athleticism.

What stat were you referring to when you brought up per possession efficiency?
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Re: Prospect Thread: Obi Toppin 

Post#83 » by KGdaBom » Fri Sep 4, 2020 12:14 am

yosemiteben wrote:Believe Toppin and Frank were the same age come draft time. And yes Frank was not as athletic, hence the comment about trading BBIQ for athleticism.

What stat were you referring to when you brought up per possession efficiency?

I'm still waiting for you to show me both of their ORTG whatever that is.
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Re: Prospect Thread: Obi Toppin 

Post#84 » by MasterIchiro » Fri Sep 4, 2020 12:24 am

He’s an elite vertically explosive athlete that reminds me of a young Amare Stoudemire.


At the very minimum he should thrive in the NBA as an above the rim vertical floor spacer that makes life easier for his teammates and is the point guards dream sidekick.


Obi would thrive with our two PG backcourt.

This season Obi Toppin was the epitome of efficient and ranked in the 99 percentile in the country and averaged nearly 1.2 points per possession.



STRENGTHS

Good size and frame for a modern day 4

Elite vertical lob threat ; Can make plays above the rim

Quick leaper, gets off the floor quick

Very efficient scorer 66% FG in 2018-19 season; 63% in 2019-20

Potential as a stretch 4 (shot 52% (11-21) from 3 as a RS freshman 41% over 2 years

Solid court vision and passing instincts

Can post up smaller defenders

Nice touch around the rim

Unorthodox game plays lefty

Can beat slower defenders to rim on straight line drives

Excellent off the ball cutter

Sprints the floor in transition




Obi is a scoring machine and an elite athlete. Top in class in both categories. When you combine them in the NBA and you have a hungry player dedicated to improvement, good things happen and great things are possible.

Despite his poor defense Amar'e made 6 all-star appearances and 3 All-NBA teams. Not a bad comp for any prospect, let alone one from this class.

https://www.nbadraftjunkies.com/obi-toppin
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Re: Prospect Thread: Obi Toppin 

Post#85 » by BeesWax » Fri Sep 4, 2020 11:29 am

Just for the record:
Toppin - 1.20
Wiseman - 1.405
Ball - .823
Okongwu - 1.13
Haliburton - 1.00
Vassell - 1.08
Hayes - .89
Advija - .973
Okoro - 1.008
Edwards - .906
Dotson - .99 (for UNC)
Azubuike - 1.11 (2nd rounder)

If you want anyone else let me know.
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Re: Prospect Thread: Obi Toppin 

Post#86 » by yosemiteben » Fri Sep 4, 2020 12:03 pm

KGdaBom wrote:
yosemiteben wrote:Believe Toppin and Frank were the same age come draft time. And yes Frank was not as athletic, hence the comment about trading BBIQ for athleticism.

What stat were you referring to when you brought up per possession efficiency?

I'm still waiting for you to show me both of their ORTG whatever that is.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/obadiah-toppin-1.html

Look under per 100 possessions. ORTG is on the far right. Then divide by 100 to get per possession.

You can look up Frank and do the same thing.
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Re: Prospect Thread: Obi Toppin 

Post#87 » by MasterIchiro » Fri Sep 4, 2020 12:48 pm

BeesWax wrote:Just for the record:
Toppin - 1.20
Wiseman - 1.405
Ball - .823
Okongwu - 1.13
Haliburton - 1.00
Vassell - 1.08
Hayes - .89
Advija - .973
Okoro - 1.008
Edwards - .906
Dotson - .99 (for UNC)
Azubuike - 1.11 (2nd rounder)

If you want anyone else let me know.


Yes, can you compute the top 20 list from the NBA that I posted? It lists points per 100 possessions. I divided by 100 which must be wrong. The order is correct. Harden ranked first in points per 100 possessions. And I read he broke MJ's record for the stat. He's an historically elite scorer.

As far as the list, Toppin tops everyone except for Wiseman, but we know Wiseman hasn't extended his game to the perimeter. Toppin remains in the 99th percentile. Wiseman also has a small sample size.
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Re: Prospect Thread: Obi Toppin 

Post#88 » by KGdaBom » Fri Sep 4, 2020 1:06 pm

BeesWax wrote:Just for the record:
Toppin - 1.20
Wiseman - 1.405
Ball - .823
Okongwu - 1.13
Haliburton - 1.00
Vassell - 1.08
Hayes - .89
Advija - .973
Okoro - 1.008
Edwards - .906
Dotson - .99 (for UNC)
Azubuike - 1.11 (2nd rounder)

If you want anyone else let me know.

If a person wants to make their draft decisions based on this stat Wiseman was the best, but extremely small sample size. When you add in defensive ability Okongwu appears to be superior to Toppin.
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Re: Prospect Thread: Obi Toppin 

Post#89 » by KGdaBom » Fri Sep 4, 2020 1:08 pm

MasterIchiro wrote:
BeesWax wrote:Just for the record:
Toppin - 1.20
Wiseman - 1.405
Ball - .823
Okongwu - 1.13
Haliburton - 1.00
Vassell - 1.08
Hayes - .89
Advija - .973
Okoro - 1.008
Edwards - .906
Dotson - .99 (for UNC)
Azubuike - 1.11 (2nd rounder)

If you want anyone else let me know.


Yes, can you compute the top 20 list from the NBA that I posted? It lists points per 100 possessions. I divided by 100 which must be wrong. The order is correct. Harden ranked first in points per 100 possessions. And I read he broke MJ's record for the stat. He's an historically elite scorer.

As far as the list, Toppin tops everyone except for Wiseman, but we know Wiseman hasn't extended his game to the perimeter. Toppin remains in the 99th percentile. Wiseman also has a small sample size.

How about factoring in that Okongwu is close to Toppin in this stat and possibly the best defender in the draft.
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Re: Prospect Thread: Obi Toppin 

Post#90 » by KGdaBom » Fri Sep 4, 2020 1:14 pm

BeesWax wrote:Just for the record:
Toppin - 1.20
Wiseman - 1.405
Ball - .823
Okongwu - 1.13
Haliburton - 1.00
Vassell - 1.08
Hayes - .89
Advija - .973
Okoro - 1.008
Edwards - .906
Dotson - .99 (for UNC)
Azubuike - 1.11 (2nd rounder)

If you want anyone else let me know.

None of these numbers match what I found either for college career or final season

I just looked up Okongwu and divided by 100 and his number was 1.22. DRTG the lower the better at .885
https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/onyeka-okongwu-1.html

Wiseman came in at 1.498 and the best DRTG the lower the better at .808
https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/james-wiseman-1.html

Toppin was at 1.253 ORTG and 90.3 DRTG most recent season.
https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/obadiah-toppin-1.html
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Re: Prospect Thread: Obi Toppin 

Post#91 » by BeesWax » Fri Sep 4, 2020 2:08 pm

KGdaBom wrote:
BeesWax wrote:Just for the record:
Toppin - 1.20
Wiseman - 1.405
Ball - .823
Okongwu - 1.13
Haliburton - 1.00
Vassell - 1.08
Hayes - .89
Advija - .973
Okoro - 1.008
Edwards - .906
Dotson - .99 (for UNC)
Azubuike - 1.11 (2nd rounder)

If you want anyone else let me know.

None of these numbers match what I found either for college career or final season

I just looked up Okongwu and divided by 100 and his number was 1.22. DRTG the lower the better at .885
https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/onyeka-okongwu-1.html

Wiseman came in at 1.498 and the best DRTG the lower the better at .808
https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/james-wiseman-1.html

Toppin was at 1.253 ORTG and 90.3 DRTG most recent season.
https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/obadiah-toppin-1.html

My numbers were pulled from NBA.com advanced stats write ups on each of the players.
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Re: Prospect Thread: Obi Toppin 

Post#92 » by KGdaBom » Fri Sep 4, 2020 2:12 pm

BeesWax wrote:
KGdaBom wrote:
BeesWax wrote:Just for the record:
Toppin - 1.20
Wiseman - 1.405
Ball - .823
Okongwu - 1.13
Haliburton - 1.00
Vassell - 1.08
Hayes - .89
Advija - .973
Okoro - 1.008
Edwards - .906
Dotson - .99 (for UNC)
Azubuike - 1.11 (2nd rounder)

If you want anyone else let me know.

None of these numbers match what I found either for college career or final season

I just looked up Okongwu and divided by 100 and his number was 1.22. DRTG the lower the better at .885
https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/onyeka-okongwu-1.html

Wiseman came in at 1.498 and the best DRTG the lower the better at .808
https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/james-wiseman-1.html

Toppin was at 1.253 ORTG and 90.3 DRTG most recent season.
https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/obadiah-toppin-1.html

My numbers were pulled from NBA.com advanced stats write ups on each of the players.

I wonder why they're different. These are college players so I would guess any official numbers for them wouldn't come from the NBA.
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Re: Prospect Thread: Obi Toppin 

Post#93 » by BeesWax » Fri Sep 4, 2020 2:24 pm

KGdaBom wrote:
BeesWax wrote:
KGdaBom wrote:None of these numbers match what I found either for college career or final season

I just looked up Okongwu and divided by 100 and his number was 1.22. DRTG the lower the better at .885
https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/onyeka-okongwu-1.html

Wiseman came in at 1.498 and the best DRTG the lower the better at .808
https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/james-wiseman-1.html

Toppin was at 1.253 ORTG and 90.3 DRTG most recent season.
https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/obadiah-toppin-1.html

My numbers were pulled from NBA.com advanced stats write ups on each of the players.

I wonder why they're different. These are college players so I would guess any official numbers for them wouldn't come from the NBA.

I would assume they scout and track these things though. I don't know if trust the other website as a reference because their NBA version doesn't alway match the NBA tracked stats in the past. I think they are roughly the same most of the time but I just went with a site I trusted more. They had all the synergy stats in write ups on the players.
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Re: Prospect Thread: Obi Toppin 

Post#94 » by Braggins » Fri Sep 4, 2020 2:48 pm

I have a hard time buying Toppin as an elite offensive talent. I don't think anyone ever considered Miles Bridges an elite offensive talent and he had a similar body type, albeit a couple inches shorter, and similar athleticism, but was more skilled and well rounded at a younger age. He had better lateral quickness, despite it not even being a strength of his, better handle, better passing, and projects as a better outside shooter (slightly worse 3pt%, but more than double volume + significantly higher ft%). Toppin's crazy high fg% might indicate hes the better finisher between the two and I could buy that, but its hard to even be certain considering the competition level and age difference when they played in college. Miles is less than three weeks older than Toppin. What kind of numbers do you think he would have put up playing in Toppins place for Dayton in the Atlantic-10 conference this season?

Miles Bridges at ages 18/19 vs Big 10 - 17.0/7.6/2.4 -- 47.0/37.5 (5.5 attempts)/77.6 shooting splits -- 8.80 SOS
Obi Toppin at age 21 vs Atlantic 10 --- 20.0/7.5/2.2 -- 63.3/39.0 (2.6 attempts)/70.2 shooting splits -- 3.69 SOS
Miles Bridges at age 21 vs NBA --------- 13.0/5.6/1.8 -- 42.4/33.0 (4.6 attempts)/80.9 shooting splits

When you factor in Miles being a significantly better defender and even an equal, or slightly better, rebounder, the comparison overall doesn't look great for Toppin.
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Re: Prospect Thread: Obi Toppin 

Post#95 » by MasterIchiro » Fri Sep 4, 2020 3:23 pm

KGdaBom wrote:
MasterIchiro wrote:
BeesWax wrote:Just for the record:
Toppin - 1.20
Wiseman - 1.405
Ball - .823
Okongwu - 1.13
Haliburton - 1.00
Vassell - 1.08
Hayes - .89
Advija - .973
Okoro - 1.008
Edwards - .906
Dotson - .99 (for UNC)
Azubuike - 1.11 (2nd rounder)

If you want anyone else let me know.


Yes, can you compute the top 20 list from the NBA that I posted? It lists points per 100 possessions. I divided by 100 which must be wrong. The order is correct. Harden ranked first in points per 100 possessions. And I read he broke MJ's record for the stat. He's an historically elite scorer.

As far as the list, Toppin tops everyone except for Wiseman, but we know Wiseman hasn't extended his game to the perimeter. Toppin remains in the 99th percentile. Wiseman also has a small sample size.

How about factoring in that Okongwu is close to Toppin in this stat and possibly the best defender in the draft.


He didn't attempt a 3 so that limits the value of his ppp. More of that number is from foul shots.
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Re: Prospect Thread: Obi Toppin 

Post#96 » by KGdaBom » Fri Sep 4, 2020 3:29 pm

MasterIchiro wrote:
KGdaBom wrote:
MasterIchiro wrote:
Yes, can you compute the top 20 list from the NBA that I posted? It lists points per 100 possessions. I divided by 100 which must be wrong. The order is correct. Harden ranked first in points per 100 possessions. And I read he broke MJ's record for the stat. He's an historically elite scorer.

As far as the list, Toppin tops everyone except for Wiseman, but we know Wiseman hasn't extended his game to the perimeter. Toppin remains in the 99th percentile. Wiseman also has a small sample size.

How about factoring in that Okongwu is close to Toppin in this stat and possibly the best defender in the draft.


He didn't attempt a 3 so that limits the value of his ppp. More of that number is from foul shots.

However, he got those numbers he got those numbers. 3 point shooting probably won't be a strength. Toppin would not need to be compensated for due to lack of distance shooting on the court. I grant him that. Okongwu on the other hand is a potential NBA DPoY.
I won't jump off a bridge if my Wolves draft either of them and I don't think Charlotte fans should jump if you take him.
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Re: Prospect Thread: Obi Toppin 

Post#97 » by luciano-davidwesley » Fri Sep 4, 2020 10:03 pm

Braggins wrote:I have a hard time buying Toppin as an elite offensive talent. I don't think anyone ever considered Miles Bridges an elite offensive talent and he had a similar body type, albeit a couple inches shorter, and similar athleticism, but was more skilled and well rounded at a younger age. He had better lateral quickness, despite it not even being a strength of his, better handle, better passing, and projects as a better outside shooter (slightly worse 3pt%, but more than double volume + significantly higher ft%). Toppin's crazy high fg% might indicate hes the better finisher between the two and I could buy that, but its hard to even be certain considering the competition level and age difference when they played in college. Miles is less than three weeks older than Toppin. What kind of numbers do you think he would have put up playing in Toppins place for Dayton in the Atlantic-10 conference this season?

Miles Bridges at ages 18/19 vs Big 10 - 17.0/7.6/2.4 -- 47.0/37.5 (5.5 attempts)/77.6 shooting splits -- 8.80 SOS
Obi Toppin at age 21 vs Atlantic 10 --- 20.0/7.5/2.2 -- 63.3/39.0 (2.6 attempts)/70.2 shooting splits -- 3.69 SOS
Miles Bridges at age 21 vs NBA --------- 13.0/5.6/1.8 -- 42.4/33.0 (4.6 attempts)/80.9 shooting splits

When you factor in Miles being a significantly better defender and even an equal, or slightly better, rebounder, the comparison overall doesn't look great for Toppin.


The last few posts in this thread by yourself and KGdaBom show statistically speaking Toppin is a lousy prospect. Even the offensive stats MasterIchiro found to support him have been rebutted as Wiseman and Okongwu do similar if not better offensively with much better defensive ratings.

To say an 18/19 year old Miles Bridges posted similar numbers in a much better conference is just the icing on the cake. To put it in perspective like you said he’s almost the exact same age right now as Miles Bridges. Bridges would probably average 30/10/10 for Dayton last year lol.

Not to mention to me Toppin looked terrible with the eye test (particularly defensively) unless you get excited for highlight dunkers. Hard, hard pass on Toppin.
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Re: Prospect Thread: Obi Toppin 

Post#98 » by KGdaBom » Fri Sep 4, 2020 10:11 pm

luciano-davidwesley wrote:
Braggins wrote:I have a hard time buying Toppin as an elite offensive talent. I don't think anyone ever considered Miles Bridges an elite offensive talent and he had a similar body type, albeit a couple inches shorter, and similar athleticism, but was more skilled and well rounded at a younger age. He had better lateral quickness, despite it not even being a strength of his, better handle, better passing, and projects as a better outside shooter (slightly worse 3pt%, but more than double volume + significantly higher ft%). Toppin's crazy high fg% might indicate hes the better finisher between the two and I could buy that, but its hard to even be certain considering the competition level and age difference when they played in college. Miles is less than three weeks older than Toppin. What kind of numbers do you think he would have put up playing in Toppins place for Dayton in the Atlantic-10 conference this season?

Miles Bridges at ages 18/19 vs Big 10 - 17.0/7.6/2.4 -- 47.0/37.5 (5.5 attempts)/77.6 shooting splits -- 8.80 SOS
Obi Toppin at age 21 vs Atlantic 10 --- 20.0/7.5/2.2 -- 63.3/39.0 (2.6 attempts)/70.2 shooting splits -- 3.69 SOS
Miles Bridges at age 21 vs NBA --------- 13.0/5.6/1.8 -- 42.4/33.0 (4.6 attempts)/80.9 shooting splits

When you factor in Miles being a significantly better defender and even an equal, or slightly better, rebounder, the comparison overall doesn't look great for Toppin.


The last few posts in this thread by yourself and KGdaBom show statistically speaking Toppin is a lousy prospect. Even the offensive stats MasterIchiro found to support him have been rebutted as Wiseman and Okongwu do similar if not better offensively with much better defensive ratings.

To say an 18/19 year old Miles Bridges posted similar numbers in a much better conference is just the icing on the cake. To put it in perspective like you said he’s almost the exact same age right now as Miles Bridges. Bridges would probably average 30/10/10 for Dayton last year lol.

Not to mention to me Toppin looked terrible with the eye test (particularly defensively) unless you get excited for highlight dunkers. Hard, hard pass on Toppin.

I think you go too far in saying I support Obi being a lousy prospect. Yes I would prefer Wiseman or Okongwu. Obi has one big advantage on both of them being the one with a proven 3 point shot. That's super important to the Wolves. I wouldn't be shocked if we took him at #1 overall.
I agree with you that the Age Gap is a very big deal.
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Re: Prospect Thread: Obi Toppin 

Post#99 » by luciano-davidwesley » Fri Sep 4, 2020 10:21 pm

KGdaBom wrote:
luciano-davidwesley wrote:
Braggins wrote:I have a hard time buying Toppin as an elite offensive talent. I don't think anyone ever considered Miles Bridges an elite offensive talent and he had a similar body type, albeit a couple inches shorter, and similar athleticism, but was more skilled and well rounded at a younger age. He had better lateral quickness, despite it not even being a strength of his, better handle, better passing, and projects as a better outside shooter (slightly worse 3pt%, but more than double volume + significantly higher ft%). Toppin's crazy high fg% might indicate hes the better finisher between the two and I could buy that, but its hard to even be certain considering the competition level and age difference when they played in college. Miles is less than three weeks older than Toppin. What kind of numbers do you think he would have put up playing in Toppins place for Dayton in the Atlantic-10 conference this season?

Miles Bridges at ages 18/19 vs Big 10 - 17.0/7.6/2.4 -- 47.0/37.5 (5.5 attempts)/77.6 shooting splits -- 8.80 SOS
Obi Toppin at age 21 vs Atlantic 10 --- 20.0/7.5/2.2 -- 63.3/39.0 (2.6 attempts)/70.2 shooting splits -- 3.69 SOS
Miles Bridges at age 21 vs NBA --------- 13.0/5.6/1.8 -- 42.4/33.0 (4.6 attempts)/80.9 shooting splits

When you factor in Miles being a significantly better defender and even an equal, or slightly better, rebounder, the comparison overall doesn't look great for Toppin.


The last few posts in this thread by yourself and KGdaBom show statistically speaking Toppin is a lousy prospect. Even the offensive stats MasterIchiro found to support him have been rebutted as Wiseman and Okongwu do similar if not better offensively with much better defensive ratings.

To say an 18/19 year old Miles Bridges posted similar numbers in a much better conference is just the icing on the cake. To put it in perspective like you said he’s almost the exact same age right now as Miles Bridges. Bridges would probably average 30/10/10 for Dayton last year lol.

Not to mention to me Toppin looked terrible with the eye test (particularly defensively) unless you get excited for highlight dunkers. Hard, hard pass on Toppin.

I think you go too far in saying I support Obi being a lousy prospect. Yes I would prefer Wiseman or Okongwu. Obi has one big advantage on both of them being the one with a proven 3 point shot. That's super important to the Wolves. I wouldn't be shocked if we took him at #1 overall.
I agree with you that the Age Gap is a very big deal.

Lousy prospect is my words not yours. Apologies if it came off I was representing you as saying that.

Of the top 5-8 or so prospects in the draft I am by far the lowest on Toppin. There’s obviously a couple I’d be slightly disappointed with if we selected them at 3 but I’d understand the rationale of the organisation and give them the benefit of the doubt. If we select Toppin at 3 though my jaw drops.
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Re: Prospect Thread: Obi Toppin 

Post#100 » by JMAC3 » Fri Sep 4, 2020 10:42 pm

Stats are all fine and dandy, but you still have to be able to project how he scores points. He played center for Dayton, they ran 5 out and he basically stood in the paint on defense.

He scored a ton of points leaking out on offense, do you think he scores like that in NBA playing the 4/5? I don’t.

I think offensively he might be a more athletic PJ, who shoots threes and scores a little down low. However I don’t think he has any superstar upside.


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