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2020 Off-season Discussion

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Re: 2020 Off-season Discussion 

Post#521 » by BigSlam » Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:44 am

JMAC3 wrote:Slam we wont have cap space this season by trading Rozier to Boston... We would still be paying Batum.

I'm not following you. If we traded Terry for Hayward then we wouldn't have Terry's $19mil next season or $18mil the season after that. We're paying Batum anyways so I'm not sure why you are factoring him in?

If you are talking about next year? Well then we will have cap space regardless if we keep Rozier

And you are right, we would have cap space next year if we kept Terry, but we'd have a whole lot more next year and the year after if we didn't!!
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Re: 2020 Off-season Discussion 

Post#522 » by wilson115 » Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:47 am

BigSlam wrote:
wilson115 wrote:
BigSlam wrote:Look at it this way: Would the FO really want to be paying their 3rd string PG (behind Tae and Melo) who is also only their 3rd string SG (behind Hayward and Monk - and maybe even Thing #1) $18mil next season?

Strong points but is Hayward a guard right now? -- It comes down to who fits the FO's timeline with Hayward. Who do they want holding the fort while our young backcourt (Tae+Melo) grows into it, Monk or Rozier?

I personally 100% see Hayward as a SG and not a SF.

In simple form:
Tae - Hayward - Miles - PF - Zeller
Melo - Monk - Thing #1 - McDaniels - Vern

Can't see the FO taking on the $30M 30 y.o. coming off injuries to chase around guards or trying to get open against them. I agree to disagree.
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Re: 2020 Off-season Discussion 

Post#523 » by Braggins » Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:48 am

BigSlam wrote:
Braggins wrote:Rozier + Zeller for Capela + Snell would get us within 900k of being able to sign Hayward outright without stretching Batum. Pretty sure wed just have to find someone to absorb Caleb Martin. I don't think Atlanta would do that, but I probably would.

Graham/Monk/Riller
Snell/Ball
Hayward/Martin
PJ/Miles
Capela/Baynes/Carey

I personally wouldn't want Capella and his $50mil over the next 3 years.

And I don't get the Snell part. Doesn't be play for the Pistons?

Snell just got traded to Atlanta for Dewayne Dedmon.

Capela's contract is basically the same as Rozier and I think he would be more valuable for this team than Rozier imo, but I actually don't think this deal works because you can't immediately trade someone right after you just traded for them.

I think Rozier + Zeller for Turner + McDermott + one of their random bench scrubs works, but I'd probably rather do the Atlanta deal if it was possible. This would make MasterIchiro very happy, though, and who doesn't want that?

I'm fine with just sending out Rozier in a s&t for Hayward, but I think it would be better to do a separate deal with him that added a decent player at one of our positions of need, and if you can make a deal like that that also cuts enough cap to avoid stretching Batum, then that seems like it would be pretty sweet.

BigSlam wrote:
Spoiler:
wilson115 wrote:
BigSlam wrote:Look at it this way: Would the FO really want to be paying their 3rd string PG (behind Tae and Melo) who is also only their 3rd string SG (behind Hayward and Monk - and maybe even Thing #1) $18mil next season?

Strong points but is Hayward a guard right now? -- It comes down to who fits the FO's timeline with Hayward. Who do they want holding the fort while our young backcourt (Tae+Melo) grows into it, Monk or Rozier?

I personally 100% see Hayward as a SG and not a SF.

In simple form:
Tae - Hayward - Miles - PF - Zeller
Melo - Monk - Thing #1 - McDaniels - Vern

I don't think it matters where you put Hayward 2-4, as long as the other pieces fit. I think it would be ideal to start him with another 3&D wing and move Miles to the bench to fill the hole we have at backup PF (and SF), but I think starting Hayward at SG with Miles at SF is also fine.
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Re: 2020 Off-season Discussion 

Post#524 » by JMAC3 » Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:50 am

BigSlam wrote:
In simple form:
Tae - Hayward - Miles - PF - Zeller
Melo - Monk - Thing #1 - McDaniels - Vern


Based on what though? Hayward played the 3 and the 4 for Boston. At 6-8 he can play 2-4, but he is probably better equipped to use his strength to guards 3s then try to use speed to guard 2s.

Personally I think our best lineup (lets assume this is 20 games in)

Graham- Melo- Hayward- PJ- Zeller
Rozier-Monk- Thing 1- Bridges- Vernon

Think having a high level backup forward like Miles off the bench is smart. Him, Hayward and PJ would be a really good 3 man rotation at both Forward spots.
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Re: 2020 Off-season Discussion 

Post#525 » by BigSlam » Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:50 am

wilson115 wrote:
BigSlam wrote:
wilson115 wrote:Strong points but is Hayward a guard right now? -- It comes down to who fits the FO's timeline with Hayward. Who do they want holding the fort while our young backcourt (Tae+Melo) grows into it, Monk or Rozier?

I personally 100% see Hayward as a SG and not a SF.

In simple form:
Tae - Hayward - Miles - PF - Zeller
Melo - Monk - Thing #1 - McDaniels - Vern

Can't see the FO taking on the $30M 30 y.o. coming off injuries to chase around guards or trying to get open against them. I agree to disagree.

You might be right - of course in the current climate of "positionless basketball" and talk of guys like Melo playing SF, Miles PF and PJ C who knows, Gordo might be lacing them up at PF for us sometimes!!
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Re: 2020 Off-season Discussion 

Post#526 » by Liver_Pooty » Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:51 am

30 years old must be the new 90 years old or something. I keep seeing his age brought up like he's about to be in a nursing home. His game isn't about athleticism. Its about basketball acumen in a nutshell. Hate the contract if you want, but hes one of the more intelligent players in the league. Monk needs to move in with him.
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Re: 2020 Off-season Discussion 

Post#527 » by BigSlam » Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:52 am

Braggins wrote:Snell just got traded to Atlanta for Dewayne Dedmon.

Ahhhhh, didn't see that. Things are moving fast!!

...but I actually don't think this deal works because you can't immediately trade someone right after you just traded for them.

I was just about to say that!!

You can, but only if they are the only player going out. You can't trade a newly acquired player with other players.
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Re: 2020 Off-season Discussion 

Post#528 » by amcoolio » Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:52 am

I don't think the Batum stretching is official yet. Its one of Bonnell's "sources" that they "will do that", not that they did do it

Surely Mitch is exploring everything possible not to create a dead cap penalty
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Re: 2020 Off-season Discussion 

Post#529 » by JMAC3 » Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:54 am

BigSlam wrote:
JMAC3 wrote:Slam we wont have cap space this season by trading Rozier to Boston... We would still be paying Batum.

I'm not following you. If we traded Terry for Hayward then we wouldn't have Terry's $19mil next season or $18mil the season after that. We're paying Batum anyways so I'm not sure why you are factoring him in?



Because it is either Hayward 32 million, Rozier 18 million, and Batum 9 million (dead cap)

or

Hayward 32 million and Batum 27 million

so either way we don't have cap space this year.

If you want to say we would have more cap space next then you are right, but are we really going to sign someone better than Rozier? I would rather have Rozier to trade either this year or next for a first or a position of need. Also, I am not convinced that Monk will be around long term at this point.
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Re: 2020 Off-season Discussion 

Post#530 » by LofJ » Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:54 am

I don't really care about the Hayward contract, it's the Batum stretch that pisses me off. There had to be another way to open up cap space.
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Re: 2020 Off-season Discussion 

Post#531 » by BlackOutBuzz » Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:57 am

BigSlam wrote:
Braggins wrote:Snell just got traded to Atlanta for Dewayne Dedmon.

Ahhhhh, didn't see that. Things are moving fast!!

...but I actually don't think this deal works because you can't immediately trade someone right after you just traded for them.

I was just about to say that!!

You can, but only if they are the only player going out. You can't trade a newly acquired player with other players.


You can aggregate salaries of a player you just acquired if you're under the cap, which we aren't likely to be once this shakes out.

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Re: 2020 Off-season Discussion 

Post#532 » by JMAC3 » Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:57 am

Another thing to think about... I think depth will be more important than ever this year with Covid. If a guy tests positive then he is missing a week or more. That is not that big of a deal in NFL because its just one game. That could be 3-5 games in the NBA.
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Re: 2020 Off-season Discussion 

Post#533 » by BigSlam » Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:58 am

Liver_Pooty wrote:30 years old must be the new 90 years old or something. I keep seeing his age brought up like he's about to be in a nursing home. His game isn't about athleticism. Its about basketball acumen in a nutshell. Hate the contract if you want, but hes one of the more intelligent players in the league. Monk needs to move in with him.

The interesting thing is that some posters were saying we should have given Walker the super max and resigned him - and were actually furious that we didn't.

The funny thing is that Walker would have been older and getting paid much, much more than Hayward will be if we had!!
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Re: 2020 Off-season Discussion 

Post#534 » by amcoolio » Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:59 am

LofJ wrote:I don't really care about the Hayward contract, it's the Batum stretch that pisses me off. There had to be another way to open up cap space.


Exactly. Rozier will be easy to move, so if we just have Hayward on the books plus rookie deals its not bad at all.

If we stretch Batum then someone needs to plant evidence on MJ so he can have a scandal and sell the team. Its an atrocious move that is unacceptable when there are plenty of teams that find creative ways to avoid situations like this. Miami gave a max contract to Jimmy Butler, having absolutely no space, and didn't have to stretch anyone. I'd give up a protected first just to not have Batum haunt us for 3 more years
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Re: 2020 Off-season Discussion 

Post#535 » by amcoolio » Sun Nov 22, 2020 4:01 am

BigSlam wrote:
Liver_Pooty wrote:30 years old must be the new 90 years old or something. I keep seeing his age brought up like he's about to be in a nursing home. His game isn't about athleticism. Its about basketball acumen in a nutshell. Hate the contract if you want, but hes one of the more intelligent players in the league. Monk needs to move in with him.

The interesting thing is that some posters were saying we should have given Walker the super max and resigned him - and were actually furious that we didn't.

The funny thing is that Walker would have been older and getting paid much, much more than Hayward will be if we had!!


I will agree that Hayward is more valuable than Kemba...as much as I like Kemba his knees don't look good and that combined with his age is no good for Boston. This was their year to seriously contend and they blew it.
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Re: 2020 Off-season Discussion 

Post#536 » by BigSlam » Sun Nov 22, 2020 4:05 am

JMAC3 wrote:
BigSlam wrote:
JMAC3 wrote:Slam we wont have cap space this season by trading Rozier to Boston... We would still be paying Batum.

I'm not following you. If we traded Terry for Hayward then we wouldn't have Terry's $19mil next season or $18mil the season after that. We're paying Batum anyways so I'm not sure why you are factoring him in?



Because it is either Hayward 32 million, Rozier 18 million, and Batum 9 million (dead cap)

or

Hayward 32 million and Batum 27 million

so either way we don't have cap space this year.

No, it's either:

2020-2021 = Hayward 32 million, Rozier 18 million, and Batum 9 million
or
2020-2021 = Hayward 32 million and Batum 9 million (because we S&T'd Hayward for Terry removing him from our books creating $18mil cap space))


Then the following season:
2021-2022 = Hayward 30 million, Rozier 19 million, and Batum 9 million
or
2021-2022 = Hayward 30 million and Batum 9 million (because we S&T'd Hayward for Terry removing him from our books creating $19mil from our cap space)
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Re: 2020 Off-season Discussion 

Post#537 » by BigSlam » Sun Nov 22, 2020 4:07 am

JMAC3 wrote:Another thing to think about... I think depth will be more important than ever this year with Covid. If a guy tests positive then he is missing a week or more. That is not that big of a deal in NFL because its just one game. That could be 3-5 games in the NBA.

Good point.

I wonder if the NBA will bring in a Covid19 IR list as well as some additional flexibility with the practice squads like the NFL has to account for that?
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Re: 2020 Off-season Discussion 

Post#538 » by chabber » Sun Nov 22, 2020 4:13 am

BigSlam wrote:
JMAC3 wrote:Another thing to think about... I think depth will be more important than ever this year with Covid. If a guy tests positive then he is missing a week or more. That is not that big of a deal in NFL because its just one game. That could be 3-5 games in the NBA.

Good point.

I wonder if the NBA will bring in a Covid19 IR list as well as some additional flexibility with the practice squads like the NFL has to account for that?


They allowed for a bigger roster in the bubble. I think it was 2 more. From Mitches press conference the other night it didn’t sound like it was still in play, in regards to open roster spots, but that could change.
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Re: 2020 Off-season Discussion 

Post#539 » by JMAC3 » Sun Nov 22, 2020 4:18 am

BigSlam wrote:
2020-2021 = Hayward 32 million and Batum 9 million (because we S&T'd Hayward for Terry removing him from our books creating $18mil cap space))




I know what you are saying, but this is a misleading way to look at it because it looks like we have cap space when we really would not have any this year. Either way we go we don't open any remaining cap space this summer so it really matters moving forward, so forget this year.

Essentially what it boils down to is would you rather have Rozier or an asset equivalent to Rozier for this year and next for a 9 million dollar penalty

Or would you rather have the extra 9 million in cap space in 2021 and 2022.

I think Rozier has a value equivalent to mid to late first.

In my mind if someone said hey would you take on this player worth 9 million in 2021 and 2022 we will give you a first round pick. Just for this example lets say Maxi Kleber tears his Achilles and we know he wont be able to play either of those years. Would that be a salary dump worth a first rounder for you? Or would you rather have cap space with no pick?
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Re: 2020 Off-season Discussion 

Post#540 » by mpharris36 » Sun Nov 22, 2020 4:23 am

LofJ wrote:I don't really care about the Hayward contract, it's the Batum stretch that pisses me off. There had to be another way to open up cap space.


coming from a knicks fan. We still have about $20 MM in cap space and its clear this offseason we are playing the long game.

I think a Randle (18 MM) for Batum (27 MM) would get you pretty close to the cap space needed to sign Hayward with having 9 MM in dead cap for 3 years.

What type of draft compensation do you think CHA would potentially to give up to get a flawed but stil productive big in Randle and not have 9 MM in dead cap space for the following few years?

With Obi drafted I think the knicks should clear that big spot up so I think it makes some sense for both sides assuming the compensation is worth while to the knicks taking on the extra money and getting a productive player.
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