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2020 Off-season Discussion

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Re: 2020 Off-season Discussion 

Post#561 » by BigSlam » Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:33 am

JMAC3 wrote:@Slam

I think the biggest disconnect that we have is I am about collecting as many assets as we can and not just giving away players who have value. We can argue about Rozier value level all day, but based on contracts that were given out today and the contracts that will be given out next summer Rozier will have some value regardless how buried on our bench is.

We have the MLE of 4.7 million available and if we don't use it we lose it. If my options are to use it on Kent Bazemore and let him sit on our bench or not use the MLE... I would rather just sign him to let him sit on our bench. Why because he is a positive asset. Somebody will be willing to trade a 2nd round pick for him at some point and a second round pick is better than nothing.

I think the biggest disconnect is that I rate cap space as an asset and you don't.

I get what you are saying, holding onto physical assets in case a great trade comes along that you can capitalize on - but the chances of that trade coming along is so limited. So many things have to align. If that wasn't the case teams wouldn't let players contracts expire without getting something back in trade just to see the player sign with another team straight away.

Eg: You don't think our FO worked the phones to try and get something for Kaminsky? Or do you think they preferred for him to walk for nothing and sign with the Suns?
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Re: 2020 Off-season Discussion 

Post#562 » by mpharris36 » Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:37 am

JMAC3 wrote:
mpharris36 wrote:
Yes correct, to an extent, that is in theory what I would be asking for but obviously the 1st round pick wouldn't be a straight up 1st round pick. I'm not that crazy :lol: . Whether it potentially be a swap rights pick (we own our pick and DAL 1st round pick) potentially protect it like top 10 swap meaning that if you are 12 and Dallas is 18 its just a 12 for 18 swap. Otherwise it defaults to a couple 2nd round picks.

Just trying to get creative. I'm guessing with us drafting Quickly we probably don't have any interest in Monk since they are actually pretty similar players. But if there was a way to re-route Monk for draft asset that could work as well.

I am consider this just simply do to the fact that I obviously want to clear the road for Obi to play without having the duplication with Randle.

But from what I'm gather you also see no value in acquiring randle because most of your scenarios are just comparing 9 MM in dead cap space for a few years without the acquisition of Randle. Now if you don't think he would help then I would totally understand your logic on just saying its between cap savings and the asset...instead of cap savings + the value of upgrading batum to Randle for that said asset.


Yeah, I don't know the ins and outs of Randle value as a player. However assuming we don't see him as much of an asset we would be avoiding the dead cap, but it wouldn't be the full dead cap assuming we waived Randle. As you mentioned he is guaranteed 4 million in the second year so we would only be saving 5 million off the dead cap Batum Scenario for that year, would save us 9 million still in the third year.

I think it is something to consider, but I also think most are overblowing this 9 million dead cap (most teams have bad contracts on their books) We will still have 20-25 Million in cap space and we do not lose any assets.


very fair, you are also talking to someone that is a fan of a team that waived/steched Noah in his last year and only in year 2 of the 6+ MM of dead cap. Its pretty annoying to deal with :lol: but yes you can still manage it but the downisde its gone for that length of time so it does hamper a little especially if you want out a guy and you have 20 mm to play with an not 30. But I totally understand the logic.
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Re: 2020 Off-season Discussion 

Post#563 » by JMAC3 » Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:42 am

Braggins wrote:
Liver_Pooty wrote:Does this complicate our ability to extend an offer to Graham now?

If nothing changes with the Batum stretch situation and Rozier isn't moved then they'll have 71 million in committed cap next season before factoring in any cap holds. Grahams cap hold is only 2 million, so they can resign him after using the rest of the cap and still go over the line. Monks hold is 13 million, then you also have empty roster spot cap holds. So, if Monk has a good enough year that we want to resign him and end up keeping his cap hold, they would be at about 89 million (71 + 2(Graham) + 13(Monk) + 3.2(4 empty spot)). That means they would have about 20 million in cap space to use on whatever before resigning Graham and Monk. So, as is, things would be pretty tight if they wanted to resign Graham and Monk. They can definitely resign Graham, especially if he takes a reasonable deal, but Monk could be iffy. Monks salary would probably end up being less than his cap hold unless he really broke out, so he probably wouldn't put them as far over the cap as it might seem, but its still a borderline situation imo.

When you really look at the cap breakdown, I think we actually have to get rid of Rozier and avoid stretching Batum. This would create an additional 27 million in space over the next few years, which would put them at about 63 million with Graham and Monks cap holds next year. If they don't then they aren't going to have much left to sign any more decent free agents or resign whichever young guys end up panning out over the next few years since MJ refuses to ever pay the luxury tax.

This Hayward deal is going to be an albatross in a few years.


You are 100% right about Graham low cap hold being super valuable. I think you are overblowing a couple things tho.

1. We have all our first round picks, so theoretically that should help fill out our roster cheaply over next few years.
2. Salary cap goes up every year, so Hayward deal will be a smaller percentage of the cap year over year
3. Rozier contract will be expired by the time we have to pay Miles, let alone PJ
4. 4 years from now when Hayward deal is coming off books will be when Melo will be eligible for his big deal
5. Also, after this year we will probably be moving on from either Monk or Rozier.
6. Paying our younger guys will be easier because they will all be RFA so we will be able to go over cap to retain them.
7. Lastly, we will continue to have access to the MLE that will allow us to add outside free agents that way
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Re: 2020 Off-season Discussion 

Post#564 » by Diop » Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:48 am

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Re: 2020 Off-season Discussion 

Post#565 » by Braggins » Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:49 am

JMAC3 wrote:
Spoiler:
Braggins wrote:
Liver_Pooty wrote:Does this complicate our ability to extend an offer to Graham now?

If nothing changes with the Batum stretch situation and Rozier isn't moved then they'll have 71 million in committed cap next season before factoring in any cap holds. Grahams cap hold is only 2 million, so they can resign him after using the rest of the cap and still go over the line. Monks hold is 13 million, then you also have empty roster spot cap holds. So, if Monk has a good enough year that we want to resign him and end up keeping his cap hold, they would be at about 89 million (71 + 2(Graham) + 13(Monk) + 3.2(4 empty spot)). That means they would have about 20 million in cap space to use on whatever before resigning Graham and Monk. So, as is, things would be pretty tight if they wanted to resign Graham and Monk. They can definitely resign Graham, especially if he takes a reasonable deal, but Monk could be iffy. Monks salary would probably end up being less than his cap hold unless he really broke out, so he probably wouldn't put them as far over the cap as it might seem, but its still a borderline situation imo.

When you really look at the cap breakdown, I think we actually have to get rid of Rozier and avoid stretching Batum. This would create an additional 27 million in space over the next few years, which would put them at about 63 million with Graham and Monks cap holds next year. If they don't then they aren't going to have much left to sign any more decent free agents or resign whichever young guys end up panning out over the next few years since MJ refuses to ever pay the luxury tax.

This Hayward deal is going to be an albatross in a few years.


You are 100% right about Graham low cap hold being super valuable. I think you are overblowing a couple things tho.

1. We have all our first round picks, so theoretically that should help fill out our roster cheaply over next few years.
2. Salary cap goes up every year, so Hayward deal will be a smaller percentage of the cap year over year
3. Rozier contract will be expired by the time we have to pay Miles, let alone PJ
4. 4 years from now when Hayward deal is coming off books will be when Melo will be eligible for his big deal
5. Also, after this year we will probably be moving on from either Monk or Rozier.
6. Paying our younger guys will be easier because they will all be RFA so we will be able to go over cap to retain them.
7. Lastly, we will continue to have access to the MLE that will allow us to add outside free agents that way

There is no guarantee the salary cap is going up now because of the revenue situation and it could actually go down over the next few years.

Also, if we let all the young guys hit restricted free agency instead of extending them early then they are possibly going to cost a lot more to resign if there is a market for them if they breakout before then.
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Re: 2020 Off-season Discussion 

Post#566 » by JMAC3 » Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:50 am

BigSlam wrote:
JMAC3 wrote:@Slam

I think the biggest disconnect that we have is I am about collecting as many assets as we can and not just giving away players who have value. We can argue about Rozier value level all day, but based on contracts that were given out today and the contracts that will be given out next summer Rozier will have some value regardless how buried on our bench is.

We have the MLE of 4.7 million available and if we don't use it we lose it. If my options are to use it on Kent Bazemore and let him sit on our bench or not use the MLE... I would rather just sign him to let him sit on our bench. Why because he is a positive asset. Somebody will be willing to trade a 2nd round pick for him at some point and a second round pick is better than nothing.

I think the biggest disconnect is that I rate cap space as an asset and you don't.

I get what you are saying, holding onto physical assets in case a great trade comes along that you can capitalize on - but the chances of that trade coming along is so limited. So many things have to align. If that wasn't the case teams wouldn't let players contracts expire without getting something back in trade just to see the player sign with another team straight away.

Eg: You don't think our FO worked the phones to try and get something for Kaminsky? Or do you think they preferred for him to walk for nothing and sign with the Suns?


I do value cap space as an asset, and by this I believe you are saying as a tool to take on contracts for small assets. But just like you are saying a trade has to materialize for a player to be an asset, so does with this. Also, we are going to be competing with OKC and whoever else to be the team to take on these bad contracts.

OKC just turned Danny Green, Schroeder, Oubre and Rubio into draft picks or a sweetener to move up into the draft. Not sure any of those guys are really any better than Terry and they all were on similar contracts.

I also don't know if Terry will be as buried on the bench as you say. No guarantee Monk will be better than him this year or retained at the end of the year depending on his production or how much money he wants. Terry is a far better shooter at this point in their careers.
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Re: 2020 Off-season Discussion 

Post#567 » by JMAC3 » Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:52 am

Braggins wrote:
JMAC3 wrote:
Spoiler:
Braggins wrote:If nothing changes with the Batum stretch situation and Rozier isn't moved then they'll have 71 million in committed cap next season before factoring in any cap holds. Grahams cap hold is only 2 million, so they can resign him after using the rest of the cap and still go over the line. Monks hold is 13 million, then you also have empty roster spot cap holds. So, if Monk has a good enough year that we want to resign him and end up keeping his cap hold, they would be at about 89 million (71 + 2(Graham) + 13(Monk) + 3.2(4 empty spot)). That means they would have about 20 million in cap space to use on whatever before resigning Graham and Monk. So, as is, things would be pretty tight if they wanted to resign Graham and Monk. They can definitely resign Graham, especially if he takes a reasonable deal, but Monk could be iffy. Monks salary would probably end up being less than his cap hold unless he really broke out, so he probably wouldn't put them as far over the cap as it might seem, but its still a borderline situation imo.

When you really look at the cap breakdown, I think we actually have to get rid of Rozier and avoid stretching Batum. This would create an additional 27 million in space over the next few years, which would put them at about 63 million with Graham and Monks cap holds next year. If they don't then they aren't going to have much left to sign any more decent free agents or resign whichever young guys end up panning out over the next few years since MJ refuses to ever pay the luxury tax.

This Hayward deal is going to be an albatross in a few years.


You are 100% right about Graham low cap hold being super valuable. I think you are overblowing a couple things tho.

1. We have all our first round picks, so theoretically that should help fill out our roster cheaply over next few years.
2. Salary cap goes up every year, so Hayward deal will be a smaller percentage of the cap year over year
3. Rozier contract will be expired by the time we have to pay Miles, let alone PJ
4. 4 years from now when Hayward deal is coming off books will be when Melo will be eligible for his big deal
5. Also, after this year we will probably be moving on from either Monk or Rozier.
6. Paying our younger guys will be easier because they will all be RFA so we will be able to go over cap to retain them.
7. Lastly, we will continue to have access to the MLE that will allow us to add outside free agents that way

There is no guarantee the salary cap is going up now because of the revenue situation and it could actually go down over the next few years.

Also, if we let all the young guys hit restricted free agency instead of extending them early then they are possibly going to cost a lot more to resign if there is a market for them if they breakout before then.


Salary cap went up 6 million this year after China debacle and covid. When was the last time the cap went down? I really just don't think it feasible.
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Re: 2020 Off-season Discussion 

Post#568 » by Braggins » Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:59 am

JMAC3 wrote:
Braggins wrote:
JMAC3 wrote:
Spoiler:


You are 100% right about Graham low cap hold being super valuable. I think you are overblowing a couple things tho.

1. We have all our first round picks, so theoretically that should help fill out our roster cheaply over next few years.
2. Salary cap goes up every year, so Hayward deal will be a smaller percentage of the cap year over year
3. Rozier contract will be expired by the time we have to pay Miles, let alone PJ
4. 4 years from now when Hayward deal is coming off books will be when Melo will be eligible for his big deal
5. Also, after this year we will probably be moving on from either Monk or Rozier.
6. Paying our younger guys will be easier because they will all be RFA so we will be able to go over cap to retain them.
7. Lastly, we will continue to have access to the MLE that will allow us to add outside free agents that way

There is no guarantee the salary cap is going up now because of the revenue situation and it could actually go down over the next few years.

Also, if we let all the young guys hit restricted free agency instead of extending them early then they are possibly going to cost a lot more to resign if there is a market for them if they breakout before then.


Salary cap went up 6 million this year after China debacle and covid. When was the last time the cap went down? I really just don't think it feasible.

spotrac is showing the cap for the 2020 season as 109 million, which is the same as what they have for the 2019 season. Has it not been updated or something?
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Re: 2020 Off-season Discussion 

Post#569 » by Diop » Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:57 am

**** it
lets make it Rozier, Batum and a first for Kemba and Hayward ;)
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Re: 2020 Off-season Discussion 

Post#570 » by Liver_Pooty » Sun Nov 22, 2020 7:09 am

Diop wrote:**** it
lets make it Rozier, Batum and a first for Kemba and Hayward ;)


Lol boston would probably consider it. They are extremely worried about the durability of his knee.

if Lamelo works out Kemba would just be a scorer between Hayward and Lamelo. Graham can aim for 6th man of the year.
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Re: 2020 Off-season Discussion 

Post#571 » by BlackOutBuzz » Sun Nov 22, 2020 2:33 pm

Liver_Pooty wrote:Does this complicate our ability to extend an offer to Graham now?
It *should* take it off the table. We can still have sizeable capspace next offseason but we'll have to wait to sign him last to keep it.

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Re: 2020 Off-season Discussion 

Post#572 » by BlackOutBuzz » Sun Nov 22, 2020 2:36 pm

Rich4114 wrote:I read somewhere Hayward’s 20-21 salary is $27m not $30m FYI.
Really depends on if it's ascending or declining (and if $120M is the exact number). They may not have had the leverage to do so, but I'm sure they would've liked to structure it like Rozier's.

Ascending: starts at almost $28M
Descending: about $32.4M

I suppose it could also be a flat $30M, too.

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Re: 2020 Off-season Discussion 

Post#573 » by BlackOutBuzz » Sun Nov 22, 2020 2:37 pm

Braggins wrote:
JMAC3 wrote:
Braggins wrote:There is no guarantee the salary cap is going up now because of the revenue situation and it could actually go down over the next few years.

Also, if we let all the young guys hit restricted free agency instead of extending them early then they are possibly going to cost a lot more to resign if there is a market for them if they breakout before then.


Salary cap went up 6 million this year after China debacle and covid. When was the last time the cap went down? I really just don't think it feasible.

spotrac is showing the cap for the 2020 season as 109 million, which is the same as what they have for the 2019 season. Has it not been updated or something?
They agreed to keep it the same this year.

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What's Hornets next trade now that Gordon Haywards here? 

Post#574 » by BobsBuddy » Sun Nov 22, 2020 2:52 pm

:D :o It's obvious we have too many PG and it looks like they are shopping Terry Rozier? I'd be happy with an expiring veteran + 2021 1st round pick. Clippers could offer us Lou Williams and their 2021 1st or 2 future seconds.? Any other ideas? :roll:
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Re: What's Hornets next trade now that Gordon Haywards here? 

Post#575 » by geraldwallace » Sun Nov 22, 2020 2:53 pm

They already traded away all my hope in this rebuild so idk what they can take from me next
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Re: What's Hornets next trade now that Gordon Haywards here? 

Post#576 » by DY_nasty » Sun Nov 22, 2020 2:58 pm

what's the point lmao
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Re: 2020 Off-season Discussion 

Post#577 » by James Gatz » Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:00 pm

JMAC3 wrote:Let me ask you Rozier haters this..

What is Rozier worth? What kind of contract would you pay him if he is such a negative asset.


I think he's probably worth the full MLE. 3/30 is probably about right.

I.e. He's isn't a Batum level bad contract. He's simply overpaid for what he provides. He's an undersized 2 guard who is bad on defense despite how pesky he looks guarding on ball. Rozier really thrived playing off Graham. He had a great year. I don't want to take that away from him.

Bogdan will also probably get slightly overpaid but he has true wing size. He's 6'6 with a 6'11 wingspan. Defense is also bad. I'd rather have Rozier at 19 then Bogdan at 30.

I wouldn't want Bogdan on this team, for same reasons as Hayward, but I think something like 4/70 is fair for him.
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Re: What's Hornets next trade now that Gordon Haywards here? 

Post#578 » by BlackOutBuzz » Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:01 pm

We actually already own LAC's 2021 2nd, and they have either traded or swapped every 1st until 2027.

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Re: 2020 Off-season Discussion 

Post#579 » by JMAC3 » Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:29 pm

James Gatz wrote:I think he's probably worth the full MLE. 3/30 is probably about right.



smh... He scored over 30 5 times last year and scored 40 in a game. Every team would pay him 10 million a season.

DeAnthony Melton just got paid over 8 million, he scored 20 points once last year and shot 28% from three.


Our expectations can't be the same as Lakers/Clippers where we get guys to sign with us 70 cents on the dollar, we are going to have to pay 110 cents on the dollar to get anyone to come play here. It just is what it is
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Re: 2020 Off-season Discussion 

Post#580 » by James Gatz » Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:32 pm

JMAC3 wrote:
James Gatz wrote:I think he's probably worth the full MLE. 3/30 is probably about right.



smh... He scored over 30 5 times last year and scored 40 in a game. Every team would pay him 10 million a season.

DeAnthony Melton just got paid over 8 million, he scored 20 points once last year and shot 28% from three.


Our expectations can't be the same as Lakers/Clippers where we get guys to sign with us 70 cents on the dollar, we are going to have to pay 110 cents on the dollar to get anyone to come play here. It just is what it is


You asked what a fair deal would be for him. Also I'd rather have Melton, who is excellent on D, and 22 at 4/35 than Rozier for 3/30.

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