ImageImage

The Hornet King: The Gordon Hayward Thread

Moderators: fatlever, yosemiteben, Diop, BigSlam, JDR720

User avatar
yosemiteben
Forum Mod - Hornets
Forum Mod - Hornets
Posts: 17,259
And1: 10,613
Joined: Mar 20, 2013
   

Re: The Hornet King: The Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#921 » by yosemiteben » Mon Jan 25, 2021 9:23 pm

JMAC3 wrote:
yosemiteben wrote:
JMAC3 wrote:
Which is the reason I mentioned multiple times in the post that I can not list every single option that could of existed or been available. However I think all 4 options are pretty fair and probably a bit more favorable than they needed to be considering I gave you chance to sign two guys who are playing really well... when we could of spent that money on guys who are not playing well.

The point of asking is for discussion... you know offering up alternatives to what was done instead of just saying I don't like that and I wish we would of done some other mysterious thing. It makes for better content rather than saying "I am not sure what I would of done, but in 12 months I will see which turns out the best and use that hindsight to really hate the Hayward signing".

Except I'm not going to use hindsight to say I hate the Hayward signing, so maybe don't preemptively criticize me for it.

I hate the roster moves required to make the Hayward signing because there wasn't a plan, which is literally the FO's job. I would be more forgiving on that point if it didn't feel exactly like the Kemba situation, where we also made a decision with no apparent backup plan in place and were made completely subject to Kemba's whims.

I'm not saying I hate the Hayward signing, I'm saying I hate stretching Batum and it's (in my view) undeniable evidence of a failure of roster management. I don't think it's fun or interesting to speculate as to the various permutations of deals that may or may not have been feasible based on information I don't have. It's cool if you want to, but I don't enjoy that so don't expect me to join in.


Haven't you pointed out several other players throughout the early season saying "we could of signed this guy if we wanted veteran leadership for way less money". I am not trying to come at you on this I promise. Read my post I just made before you posted this one and maybe my point will come through cleaner. I may have sounded aggressive towards you when I am really not trying to.

I have made those posts, but not because I'm criticizing Gordon myself - it was in response to this sentiment that allocating that salary on Gordon was justifiable if he's just above average and a vet. My point was that he should have higher expectations for the commitment, which I think is clearly what the franchise was hoping for.

I just hate the game of "what other deals could we have done" like it's my job how to figure out how not to waste cap space, even though I don't have anywhere close to enough information (even if I had the time to digest it) to figure out our options. If you want to die on the hill of "$9M in wasted space over three years is fine because it was impossible / impractical to do anything differently", fine then. I'll just point out that it's extremely unusual, and the guy that we're paying $9M to this year (and for the following two years) is now a title favorite's newest favorite toy that we're subsidizing for them. There is no way that I can look at that situation and say, "Yep, that's some excellent roster management."
Chapelchilla
Senior
Posts: 746
And1: 387
Joined: Aug 04, 2014
         

Re: The Hornet King: The Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#922 » by Chapelchilla » Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:34 pm

The Batum stretch is traceable all the way back to Cho. We could not get rid of him without eating the money or sending out a valuable pick out so someone else would. We could not get Hayward at all if we did not make a deal when we had the chance to without making the money to Batum a stretch. Jordan should be commended for being willing to sacrifice 18 million of dead cap over the next 2 years to get Hayward, who may well have been the only star FA who would sign here in the next 2 years. I think Gordon has been well worth the cost. He is a leader, he gives us a marketable identity with Ball and he has helped us win some games we certainly would not be in with him. The Batum 27 million was going to be spent one way or the other and we got Hayward by sneaking into the Celtics/INDY/NY negotiations and stealing the best FA available to us. I think it has proved to be the right call (so far at least).
User avatar
JMAC3
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,161
And1: 1,238
Joined: May 22, 2010
     

Re: The Hornet King: The Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#923 » by JMAC3 » Tue Jan 26, 2021 2:19 pm

I wonder if the dead cap counts towards us being an over the cap team? The NBA is kind of broken because it is better to operate as an over the cap team by 15 million then under the cap by 5 Million.

You get better exceptions.
Big Board
1. Vontae Mack no matter what!!
Chapelchilla
Senior
Posts: 746
And1: 387
Joined: Aug 04, 2014
         

Re: The Hornet King: The Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#924 » by Chapelchilla » Sun Jan 31, 2021 3:22 pm

Hayward appears to be having a All Star caliber season! I know he won't get voted in as a starter but so far it looks like he should make the team as a coach's pick. Not too shabby.
User avatar
JMAC3
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,161
And1: 1,238
Joined: May 22, 2010
     

Re: The Hornet King: The Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#925 » by JMAC3 » Sun Jan 31, 2021 5:04 pm

Chapelchilla wrote:Hayward appears to be having a All Star caliber season! I know he won't get voted in as a starter but so far it looks like he should make the team as a coach's pick. Not too shabby.


I think it is going to be tougher to be an allstar in the East this year than the West.

East
Guards-Locks ( Beal, Young, Harden, Irving) Questionable Brown, Brogdon, Westbrook, Lavine, Sexton
Fowards/C- Locks(Embiid, Giannis, Durant, Vuc, Tatum, Sabonis) Questionable. Middleton, Randle, Jerami Grant, Bam, Hayward, Drummond, Turner, Butler

10 Locks with 2 guys making it from Questionable list

West
Guards- Locks- (Curry, Dame, Luka, ) Questionable Mitchell, Booker, Morant, Shai, CP3
Forwards/C- Locks (Jokic, Davis, LeBron, PG, Kawhi,) Questionable Ingram, Gobert, Wood

8 Locks with 4 guys making
Big Board
1. Vontae Mack no matter what!!
User avatar
James Gatz
Veteran
Posts: 2,721
And1: 684
Joined: Mar 12, 2012

Re: The Hornet King: The Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#926 » by James Gatz » Sun Jan 31, 2021 5:17 pm

JMAC3 wrote:
Chapelchilla wrote:Hayward appears to be having a All Star caliber season! I know he won't get voted in as a starter but so far it looks like he should make the team as a coach's pick. Not too shabby.


I think it is going to be tougher to be an allstar in the East this year than the West.

East
Guards-Locks ( Beal, Young, Harden, Irving) Questionable Brown, Brogdon, Westbrook, Lavine, Sexton
Fowards/C- Locks(Embiid, Giannis, Durant, Vuc, Tatum, Sabonis) Questionable. Middleton, Randle, Jerami Grant, Bam, Hayward, Drummond, Turner, Butler

10 Locks with 2 guys making it from Questionable list

West
Guards- Locks- (Curry, Dame, Luka, ) Questionable Mitchell, Booker, Morant, Shai, CP3
Forwards/C- Locks (Jokic, Davis, LeBron, PG, Kawhi,) Questionable Ingram, Gobert, Wood

8 Locks with 4 guys making


I'd put Brown, Bam, and Middleton in the locks category. I would probably take Harden Vuc and Sabonis out. That being said, looks like Hayward isn't making it this year. Too much talent.
Hornet Mania
Head Coach
Posts: 6,420
And1: 4,983
Joined: Jul 05, 2014
Location: Dornbirn, Austria
     

Re: The Hornet King: The Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#927 » by Hornet Mania » Sun Jan 31, 2021 6:10 pm

ASG reserves almost always come down to which teams are 1-8 at the time the coaches make their selections. Deserving players from losing teams miss out every year, and pretty good players from winning teams tend to be the ones called out as least deserving every year.

If we're in the 6th-8th seed by the time the coaches decide then I really like Hayward's chances. If we're 10th I don't think he will make it.
Chapelchilla
Senior
Posts: 746
And1: 387
Joined: Aug 04, 2014
         

Re: The Hornet King: The Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#928 » by Chapelchilla » Sun Jan 31, 2021 9:34 pm

He does have a lot of comp to make the team. But if he starts scoring even more with Terry hurt that path gets easier.
Soul Rebel
Junior
Posts: 451
And1: 271
Joined: Jun 10, 2015
Location: SEA: HNL : CLT
Contact:
         

Re: The Hornet King: The Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#929 » by Soul Rebel » Thu Feb 4, 2021 4:00 pm

Let me preface this by saying that I was very happy with the GH signing. Not so much the Batum/stretch/overspending aspect, but the player and character/team player work ethic he brings, I was very psyched to have here.

My question is would Christian Wood have been a better signing/fit for us?

Hayward: 23/5/3 43% from 3 and a 19.1 PER
Wood: 22/10/1 40% from 3 and a 23.7 PER

Hayward is 30 years old and costs us 28M/yr avg. Wood is 25 and costs 13.5M/yr avg. Both are fringe All-Stars for their respective teams.

Given our roster at the time free agency was going on, I have to think Wood fit us long-term better. His presence in the middle filled a need and would've given us similar stat lines to Hayward at a much reduced cost. It also would allow Miles to start vs. coming off the bench.

Am I box score hunting and Wood is a stat filler?

I know we tried to reel in Wood but he chose Houston, however if we offered a little more, do you think he would have been the better move for us?
Image
User avatar
Snidely FC
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,004
And1: 2,073
Joined: Jan 19, 2011
Location: Asheville, NC
 

Re: The Hornet King: The Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#930 » by Snidely FC » Fri Feb 5, 2021 4:49 pm

Zach Lowe in today's 10 NBA Things He Likes (ESPN+)
2. Gordon Hayward's decelerations
If Hayward has lost some oomph since his leg injury in 2017, he makes up for it with crafty footwork -- stop-on-a-dime decelerations, half-spins, and pivoty slides that pry open space for his midrange game.

Hayward is averaging 23 points and sniffing 50-40-90 shooting while providing secondary playmaking and defense at both forward positions. He is exactly what the Charlotte Hornets envisioned, and he's living up to his four-year, $120 million contract. Pain might come in the back end, but the Hornets will live with that if Hayward brings stability now.

There is opportunity cost in using cap space on veterans who don't match your timeline, but that cost was probably not all that high for the Hornets. They are not a free-agent destination. They were slated before signing Hayward to have so much space this coming summer, it was almost inevitable they would do something damaging with it.

Ignore the money, and enjoy a really good player having a really good season after injuries short-circuited his prime.
euphorbus
Veteran
Posts: 2,752
And1: 1,111
Joined: Sep 28, 2015
 

Re: The Hornet King: The Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#931 » by euphorbus » Fri Feb 5, 2021 6:50 pm

The big thing that Lowe leaves out: leadership.
User avatar
yosemiteben
Forum Mod - Hornets
Forum Mod - Hornets
Posts: 17,259
And1: 10,613
Joined: Mar 20, 2013
   

Re: The Hornet King: The Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#932 » by yosemiteben » Wed Mar 3, 2021 7:56 pm

https://www.nba.com/news/qa-hornets-gordon-hayward-thriving-in-charlotte

ETA: Interesting tidbit that I don't think we have given enough weight to:

Then this year I have the opportunity to play under coach Ronald Nored, who’s an assistant here. Ron was our starting point guard and my road roommate in college. It’s been really fun having him here. We’ve always had a good relationship. He was instrumental in my deciding to come here because I was able to talk to him first as a friend, and then as an assistant coach, and picked his brain about what it’s like to play here and live here.
DY_nasty
General Manager
Posts: 9,369
And1: 4,944
Joined: Apr 14, 2010

Re: The Hornet King: The Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#933 » by DY_nasty » Thu Mar 4, 2021 11:41 pm

im very much still concerned about dudes ability to stay healthy
User avatar
wilson115
Junior
Posts: 334
And1: 249
Joined: Aug 21, 2020
   

Re: The Hornet King: The Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#934 » by wilson115 » Tue Mar 16, 2021 3:56 am

Read on Twitter


Now I can't get this out of my head.

KembaWalker
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,685
And1: 2,032
Joined: Dec 22, 2011
   

Re: The Hornet King: The Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#935 » by KembaWalker » Fri Mar 19, 2021 11:06 pm

starting to get Batum vibes
Image
User avatar
BigSlam
Forum Mod - Hornets
Forum Mod - Hornets
Posts: 47,839
And1: 5,407
Joined: Jul 01, 2005

Re: The Hornet King: The Gordon Hayward Thread  

Post#936 » by BigSlam » Sat Mar 20, 2021 12:05 am

KembaWalker wrote:starting to get Batum vibes

What?!?

The guys averaging 20/5/4 on the season on good shooting %’s.

He’s had 2 bad scoring games in a row - and one of them he almost notched a triple double anyway (7/9/10).

Again, 20/5/4 on the season.

What about that gives you “Batum vibes”?
BBMF'ers
KembaWalker
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,685
And1: 2,032
Joined: Dec 22, 2011
   

Re: The Hornet King: The Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#937 » by KembaWalker » Sat Mar 20, 2021 12:30 am

BigSlam wrote:
KembaWalker wrote:starting to get Batum vibes

What?!?

The guys averaging 20/5/4 on the season on good shooting %’s.

He’s had 2 bad scoring games in a row - and one of them he almost notched a triple double anyway (7/9/10).

Again, 20/5/4 on the season.

What about that gives you “Batum vibes”?


January: 24.1 ppg on 50/46 17 fga
February 18.6ppg on 46/41 15 fga
March: 14.7 ppg on 46/25 12fga

free throw attempts dropping drastically every month as well, already at half of what he was getting earlier this season

not hard to see the the trend. Won't be long until he's pushing classic 15/5/5 Batum stats as he's already hitting that level of passiveness. you can act like its not trending that direction, maybe i'm just getting the vibes early. but its coming fast if it aint already here. the guy thats perfectly happy signing a max contract to take a dozen soft shots a game
Image
DY_nasty
General Manager
Posts: 9,369
And1: 4,944
Joined: Apr 14, 2010

Re: The Hornet King: The Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#938 » by DY_nasty » Sat Mar 20, 2021 1:02 am

its scary i agree. logic points to it being a slump and a tumultuous season overall

but i am very irrationally afraid and will openly say as much
luciano-davidwesley
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 4,326
And1: 395
Joined: Aug 03, 2002
Location: Gold Coast
Contact:
   

Re: The Hornet King: The Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#939 » by luciano-davidwesley » Sat Mar 20, 2021 2:16 am

Year four of this contract (if not year 3) projects to be very bad. I'd be trying to sell high at the deadline (if we can). I know the team won't do that though.
Bassman
Assistant Coach
Posts: 3,810
And1: 751
Joined: Jul 02, 2006
Location: Sunny SW Florida; NC born & bred
       

Re: The Hornet King: The Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#940 » by Bassman » Sat Mar 20, 2021 2:20 am

Is it shot distribution as much as percentage off? Too tired to go look it up. Gordo is top notch, regardless of what is creating this. It’s nothing like lazy blasé Batum, who could have cared less about playing hard or well. He and his soul mate Diaw were twin anchors dragging this ship down.
I continue to wait...and hope...for the return to Hornet's glory.

Return to Charlotte Hornets