Fool Me Twice: The Gordon Hayward Thread

[Rich4114]

I’m thinking it’s gotta be Miles and PJ who step up. Those guys have the physical abilities to do it.

You’re kidding yourself.

Those two aren’t natural scorers like Gordo is or can create their own offence like Gordo does.

It’s really comes down to Terry and Tae carrying us this next month.

Oh I was saying this assuming we’d get top of their game Terry and Tae. They can’t do it alone though.

[fatlever]

Is this MF just gonna low key miss the rest of the season? 2 months with a sprained ankle and still no indication he's anywhere close to returning

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[CuseMayne]

Is this MF just gonna low key miss the rest of the season? 2 months with a sprained ankle and still no indication he's anywhere close to returning

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He went down on 4/2 against Indiana and I remember them saying it would be about 4 weeks. I wouldn't be shocked if he doesn't play again this season.

Also it's a sprained foot, which I'd assume is more serious than a sprained ankle. He just got out of a walking boot a few days ago, a boot that I've never seen a player with a sprained ankle being required to wear.

Nonetheless, it is frustrating that it's seemingly impossible he'll have a season where he plays 100% of the games. That being said, I wouldn't be devastated if he shuts it down for the rest of the year. We're gonna need him to be as available as possible for the next 3 years. I'm honestly more hurt about Miles sitting out this last stretch of games.

[Braggins]

Is this MF just gonna low key miss the rest of the season? 2 months with a sprained ankle and still no indication he's anywhere close to returning

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Looking like hes going to end up missing 40% of the season. Not a good sign for a 31 year old in the first year of a huge four year contract imo. Even with his good numbers/efficiency I don't know how you can justify tying up 40 million in cap space for him.

[luciano-davidwesley]

Is this MF just gonna low key miss the rest of the season? 2 months with a sprained ankle and still no indication he's anywhere close to returning

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Looking like hes going to end up missing 40% of the season. Not a good sign for a 31 year old in the first year of a huge four year contract imo. Even with his good numbers/efficiency I don't know how you can justify tying up 40 million in cap space for him.

I think it's pretty obvious it was a dumb move to sign him. Injury prone and he's clearly not a quick healer. That last year screams buyout.

[Braggins]

Is this MF just gonna low key miss the rest of the season? 2 months with a sprained ankle and still no indication he's anywhere close to returning

Sent from my SM-G973U using RealGM mobile app

Looking like hes going to end up missing 40% of the season. Not a good sign for a 31 year old in the first year of a huge four year contract imo. Even with his good numbers/efficiency I don't know how you can justify tying up 40 million in cap space for him.

I think it's pretty obvious it was a dumb move to sign him. Injury prone and he's clearly not a quick healer. That last year screams buyout.

I think it might be inevitable that we end up losing a much younger (and healthier) player that we'd like to keep because of the cap constraints imposed by his contract and the 9 million in dead cap from the Batum stretch. Could be Rozier, Monk, Miles, or PJ.

[yosemiteben]

Looking like hes going to end up missing 40% of the season. Not a good sign for a 31 year old in the first year of a huge four year contract imo. Even with his good numbers/efficiency I don't know how you can justify tying up 40 million in cap space for him.

I think it's pretty obvious it was a dumb move to sign him. Injury prone and he's clearly not a quick healer. That last year screams buyout.

I think it might be inevitable that we end up losing a much younger (and healthier) player that we'd like to keep because of the cap constraints imposed by his contract and the 9 million in dead cap from the Batum stretch. Could be Rozier, Monk, Miles, or PJ.

Only if we go cheap, and if we do that it's not because of Hayward. We don't have to let any bird right guys go.

[Liver_Pooty]

Phenomenal signing. Blame Mitch for the Batum ordeal.

[Rich4114]

If we had Gordon available, we win tonight’s game and many of the others we’ve recently lost. It’s so lazy to call this a bad signing considering we were in the 4/5/6 spots until he and LaMelo got hurt. We just need a capable center and we are right there with NYK/ATL and possibly even the Bucks.

[luciano-davidwesley]

If we had Gordon available, we win tonight’s game and many of the others we’ve recently lost. It’s so lazy to call this a bad signing considering we were in the 4/5/6 spots until he and LaMelo got hurt. We just need a capable center and we are right there with NYK/ATL and possibly even the Bucks.

Yes it's very lazy to call the signing of an injury prone player who is long-term injured on huge salary plus a stretch a bad signing.

Do you think Mitch Kupchak was assuming he'd magically stop missing a ton of games this season?

[Liver_Pooty]

If we had Gordon available, we win tonight’s game and many of the others we’ve recently lost. It’s so lazy to call this a bad signing considering we were in the 4/5/6 spots until he and LaMelo got hurt. We just need a capable center and we are right there with NYK/ATL and possibly even the Bucks.

Yes it's very lazy to call the signing of an injury prone player who is long-term injured on huge salary plus a stretch a bad signing.

Do you Mitch Kupchak was assuming he'd magically stop missing a ton of games this season?

Fluke injuries for the most part. Isn't like he has constant hamstring or quad injuries. Landed on another guys foot for **** sake.

[Roll Tide 09]

He'll be fine as long as he can continue to put up at least 17-5-5 each game. With the emergence of Miles, he might be expendable for the right piece(s). He's also on a fairly good contract, honestly. You package him with someone like Washington or Graham along with two 2nd round picks...and you get an established All-Star player in return and possibly a draft pick or two.

[yosemiteben]

Mitch has signaled that Hayward was a higher caliber FA than they thought they could possibly land, and I bet getting shunned by Harrell when they were offering him a pay raise and starting gig was fresh in their mind at the time.

I understand wanting to capitalize on a unique opportunity, but I also do think it was risky and I'm not confident we'll end up looking back a couple years from now thinking it was a good decision.

I do think after all the extensions that this summer is not a great one to have a bunch of cap space, so from that perspective it stings a little less.

[BeesWax]

If we had Gordon available, we win tonight’s game and many of the others we’ve recently lost. It’s so lazy to call this a bad signing considering we were in the 4/5/6 spots until he and LaMelo got hurt. We just need a capable center and we are right there with NYK/ATL and possibly even the Bucks.

Yes it's very lazy to call the signing of an injury prone player who is long-term injured on huge salary plus a stretch a bad signing.

Do you Mitch Kupchak was assuming he'd magically stop missing a ton of games this season?

Fluke injuries for the most part. Isn't like he has constant hamstring or quad injuries. Landed on another guys foot for **** sake.

But at some point isn't that just who he is? I mean I know they are fluke injuries but he seems to always get them. It just feels like he has bad luck and it is not going to change.

[Rays Pompadour]

It's rare to see a player outplay his free agent contract. Terry Rozier is the most recent notable exception, though this board griped about it to excess. And these days since the BIG RAISE that blew the lid off player salaries, it's even hard to find a player playing up to his FA contract. The big value is in rookie-scale contracts and FA one-year deals. These are the hungry players.

Hayward, like Batum before him, was never ever going to play up to or even at even keel to his contract. But his contract was the cost of doing business for a small (or mid) market club with little drawing power. I mean, the franchise was snubbed by Motrezl Harrell, for the love of mike. If the Hornets were in good playoff position with Hayward making a major contribution, his contract would be less of an issue.

As for the injuries, I'm not ready to downgrade Hayward to Zeller status just yet. If Charlotte adds a rim-protecting, rebounding center in the offseason, either through free agency (best option) or through the draft (lesser option due to the developmental time required for bigs), Hayward can concentrate on his most positive role of facilitator and trusted scorer and less on banging for rebounds and defending beneath the arc. And this will help keep him healthy. Then, maybe, he'll make the kind of contribution needed to take the Hornets to the next level and justify his contract.

[Liver_Pooty]

Not going to lie I'm pretty sure he's done for the season and I'm pretty pissed off about it.

[Chapelchilla]

It's rare to see a player outplay his free agent contract. Terry Rozier is the most recent notable exception, though this board griped about it to excess. And these days since the BIG RAISE that blew the lid off player salaries, it's even hard to find a player playing up to his FA contract. The big value is in rookie-scale contracts and FA one-year deals. These are the hungry players.

Hayward, like Batum before him, was never ever going to play up to or even at even keel to his contract. But his contract was the cost of doing business for a small (or mid) market club with little drawing power. I mean, the franchise was snubbed by Motrezl Harrell, for the love of mike. If the Hornets were in good playoff position with Hayward making a major contribution, his contract would be less of an issue.

As for the injuries, I'm not ready to downgrade Hayward to Zeller status just yet. If Charlotte adds a rim-protecting, rebounding center in the offseason, either through free agency (best option) or through the draft (lesser option due to the developmental time required for bigs), Hayward can concentrate on his most positive role of facilitator and trusted scorer and less on banging for rebounds and defending beneath the arc. And this will help keep him healthy. Then, maybe, he'll make the kind of contribution needed to take the Hornets to the next level and justify his contract.

He was playing to the level of his contract prior to the injury. Borderline All Star level. This is not (likely) to be a lingering issue next year if we let it heal properly now. I think it was a great signing and it should benefit us tremendously going forward in the years to come when we have a better roster. If he is the second or 3rd best guy while providing veteran leadership on a young talented team with a real full starting 5 we will be winning a bunch of games. This year, I hope we lose every game the rest of the way at this point to get a better pick. Without a healthy Hayward and Bridges we have no decent 3 men. We already have bad big men at Center. We won't beat NJ or Philly in a playoff game let alone a series. Next year we should have a legit C or two, healthy talented forwards and an excellent back court.

[Hornet Mania]

The foot thing was just crap luck but it probably didn't make any difference in the grand scheme this season. If Gordo is available and Melo/Monk (and later Graham/Bridges/Thing 1) are all out we probably still slip to 7/8th place.

Gordo was worth his deal this season but ultimately it's the next few years which will decide if that overpay is defensible. If he spends the next two years being injured and then is a complete albatross by year 4 it was a super stupid decision. If he can be borderline all-star caliber the next couple years and then respectable in year 4 while helping us win a playoff series or two early in Melo's career it was a good investment.

[Braggins]

He was playing to the level of his contract prior to the injury. Borderline All Star level.

I don't really agree with this. We essentially tied up nearly 40 million in cap for him (37.5/38.9/39.9/31.5) and thats more than what a borderline all-star is worth. You can't really separate the Batum stretch from his contract because that was part of the cost of signing him. It looks a little better once the Batum stretch comes off the books for his final year, but by that point he'll be 34 years old and still making over 30 million, while likely not being as productive as he currently is, even assuming good health.

Its a bit of a tricky situation to talk about, because he has absolutely played well. Its hard to nitpick a guy putting up 20/6/4 on good efficiency while playing winning basketball, but he also missed 40% of the season, which seems to be the norm for him, and he still is costing the team considerably more than his production is worth imo.

[Chapelchilla]

He was playing to the level of his contract prior to the injury. Borderline All Star level.

I don't really agree with this. We essentially tied up nearly 40 million in cap for him (37.5/38.9/39.9/31.5) and thats more than what a borderline all-star is worth. You can't really separate the Batum stretch from his contract because that was part of the cost of signing him. It looks a little better once the Batum stretch comes off the books for his final year, but by that point he'll be 34 years old and still making over 30 million, while likely not being as productive as he currently is, even assuming good health.

Its a bit of a tricky situation to talk about, because he has absolutely played well. Its hard to nitpick a guy putting up 20/6/4 on good efficiency while playing winning basketball, but he also missed 40% of the season, which seems to be the norm for him, and he still is costing the team considerably more than his production is worth imo.

I also don't really agree with that cap gymnastics argument. He didn't cost us 40 mill this year in a vacuum. Batum was going to cost us 30 million or so regardless. In year 4 he costs what will likely be a fairly normal number with wage growth. It's only the next 2 years that he actually costs us a full 39/40. There re a lot of reasons why bringing a vet FA with some stature was way way more important then the $ last year. We have covered them plenty.
We have the flexibility to still add a center this year and our own young FAs can be resigned regardless, if they are worth the deal they want. On that note, I would jettison Monk, Devonte and the twins with no qualms. If they want to stay here on a team friendly deal, that's fine. None of them are special. Ball, Terry, Bridges, PJ we can still keep or trade for assets. If Jordan wants to build a winner while he has a shot he will need to dip into the piggy bank in 2 years for a year or two. I think he is getting older and starting to see that his window is getting shorter and he may well be willing to spend to win here while we have a real star.