Center Options

[Rich4114]

So many posters professed it was super easy to acquire a starting 5 in the NBA so surely our FO will have a bunch of options to choose from.

Right?

I could see us bringing in someone like Taj Gibson.


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Came here to say this. We need rebounding. Knicks have a surplus of bigs and we have a surplus of guards. Just saying.

[euphorbus]

Came here to say this. We need rebounding. Knicks have a surplus of bigs and we have a surplus of guards. Just saying.

Whom did you have in mind? There is only one true center listed on the roster, a guy named Mitchell Robinson, who skipped college. This is his third year with the Knicks.

[Hornet Mania]

Vernon Carey Jr please. Playing Biz as anything other than a mentor or backup is pointless. He has no potential for improvement and he's not up to starting standard.


Let's see just how good or bad Vernon Carey Jr or Nick Richards are. I couldn't care less whether we win or lose. We are first round playoffs fodder at best anyway.

Failing that trade for some young guy being undervalued or underutilised by their present team.

This is where I'm at too, but I'm also not hungry for a playoff spot like the front office seems to be.

As long as we don't trade a valuable future asset (protected 1st, young prospect other than Monk) I'll be happy.

[Rays Pompadour]

Looks like status quo for the Hornets. Biyombo played 30 minutes against the Thunder and comments after from Borrego seemed to favor staying that way. Washington slid to the 5 when Biz got a blow. No minutes for Carey or Richards. Looking at the schedule, it's possible the Hornets will go 1 for 9, especially if they keep giving possessions away from a lack of rebounding.

It's obvious to me that Borrego doesn't think either Carey or Richards is ready, which we know is true. But the Hornets need boards and they're going to continue to lose if they don't come up with an answer.

[DY_nasty]

Looks like status quo for the Hornets. Biyombo played 30 minutes against the Thunder and comments after from Borrego seemed to favor staying that way. Washington slid to the 5 when Biz got a blow. No minutes for Carey or Richards. Looking at the schedule, it's possible the Hornets will go 1 for 9, especially if they keep giving possessions away from a lack of rebounding.

It's obvious to me that Borrego doesn't think either Carey or Richards is ready, which we know is true. But the Hornets need boards and they're going to continue to lose if they don't come up with an answer.

Yeah, and its not even just the boards either. We have no say regarding anything that happens within 15 ft of the rim on either side of the court.

Simple actions for plays don't work or get blown up immediately for us. Opposing teams do stuff they'd never dream of trying against functionally competent teams. Two passes and our defense is in full scramble mode far too frequently. Straight line drives to the rim because guys on our team have assumed someone steps up based on a lifetime of playing basketball.

Its a joke.

[JMAC3]

Okay... time to deep dive into the numbers a bit for the first three games and look to see how big of an issue Center is for this team.

Game 1 vs Cavs
Offensive Rebounds
Cavs 10 offensive rebounds to Hornets 8 offensive rebounds

Cavs Center Stats
Andre Drummond- 27 mins with 14 pts on 7/18 shooting (39%) 14 rebounds and 0 blocks
Javale McGee-19 mins with 13 pts on 6/7 shooting, 7 rebounds and 1 block

Hornets Center Stats
Cody Zeller- 19 mins with 6 pts on 3/6 shooting and 3 rebounds and 0 blocks
Biyombo- 24 mins with 11 pts on 5/5 shooting and 4 rebounds and 1 block

Synopsis- Outscored 27 pts to 17 pts, but our bigs shot 73% from field compared to theirs 52% and McGee was feeling himself and hit a bunch of luck box shots. We were outrebounded by a big margin of 21 boards to 7 boards at the center position, but most of those were defensive rebounds as we only gave up 2 more offensive rebounds then we had ourselves. Our team has a much more team rebounding approach whereas many teams allow their center to get all the defensive rebounds, at the end of the day it doesn't matter who is grabbing boards, as long as someone is.

Game 2 vs Thunder
Offensive Rebounds
Thunder 9 offensive rebounds to Hornets 13 offensive rebounds- Thunder outrebounded us by 3 total

Thunder Center Stats
Al Horford 29 mins 3 pts on 1/5 shooting, 13 rebounds and 1 block
Mike Muscala 18 mins 14 pts on 5/8 shooting, 2 rebounds and 0 blocks

Hornets Center Stats
Biyombo- 30 mins, 5 pts on 2/7 shooting, 9 rebounds and 2 blocks
PJ Washington- 29 mins, 18 pts on 7/15 shooting, 8 rebounds, 3 blocks

Synopsis- We actually had more offensive rebounds 4, which is a great stat. Lost the rebound battle by 3 rebounds, but that was attributed more to us missing so many shots so more defensive rebounds available for them. Depends on if you want to look at PJ stats for Center position or not but if so our bigs outplayed theirs. If not and you only want to use Biz vs Horford then I would say that matchup was pretty much a wash which is great for us because we are allocating far less money to Biz then they are Horford.

Game 3 vs Nets
Offensive Rebounds
Nets had 6 offensive rebounds to Hornets 13 offensive rebounds- Outrebounded them in total by 1

Nets Center Stats
Deandre Jordan- 19 mins, 1 pt on 0-2 shooting with 12 boards and 1 block
Jarrett Allen- 25 mins 8 pts on 1-2 shooting with 14 boards and 1 block

Hornets Center Stats
Biyombo- 30 mins, 12 pts on 5/6 shooting and 6 rebounds and 1 block
PJ Washington, 14 pts on 6/16 shooting and 12 rebounds and 0 blocks.

Synopsis- We won both the offensive rebounding battle (by 7) and the overall rebound battle with Biz vs supposedly one of the best center rotations in the league. Their Centers had a ton of rebounds, but most were defensive rebounds and we still did not get killed on the offensive glass. Our team did a great job of team rebounding whereas Nets centers had over 50% of total rebounds for their team. Again if you want to count PJ as a Center for us then we outperformed their centers by a large margin 26 pts to 9 pts, but if you do not want to include PJ then Biz vs their center production was probably a wash.

Overall Synopsis from all three games- We are 1-2 on the season, but looking at rebounding numbers, offensive rebounding and shooting percentages at the center position we are hanging in their with other teams at the center position. Our record is more a result of poor shooting and other teams just simply outplaying us at other positions.

This fits my theory that Biz/Zeller/PJ are serviceable most nights vs opposing centers unless we are playing against the Embiid, Jokic, Towns, Bam and maybe Vucevic. Would I like to upgrade the center position at some point? yes. Sure. Of course. but to me it is less important then positions 1-3.

[Bassman]

Problem is the rebounding stats don’t tell the full story. Opposing players are driving into the lane with impunity and scoring repeatedly. We have no shot blocking presence. We don’t block out well (at least consistently). Importance of bigs and size/strength will show itself over a wider grouping of games. PJ as a tiny 5 isn’t going to cut it. Biz has his moments as an undersized C but he hardly intimidates. Matched against significant power he will foul out or surrender too much.

I loved our win against Brooklyn but they just weren’t ready for that game. Coasted along thinking the stars would save them (and nearly did).

[BigSlam]

The impact of a centre, or any position really, can’t be assessed by head to head stats. That’s a really lazy take.

The centre position can significantly impact how a team plays, the whole team, and especially what they can and can not do on defence.

The position also significantly dictates what the opposing teams can and can’t do.


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[DY_nasty]

Problem is the rebounding stats don’t tell the full story. Opposing players are driving into the lane with impunity and scoring repeatedly. We have no shot blocking presence. We don’t block out well (at least consistently). Importance of bigs and size/strength will show itself over a wider grouping of games. PJ as a tiny 5 isn’t going to cut it. Biz has his moments as an undersized C but he hardly intimidates. Matched against significant power he will foul out or surrender too much.

I loved our win against Brooklyn but they just weren’t ready for that game. Coasted along thinking the stars would save them (and nearly did).

yeah.... the fact that teams don't even have to address certain parts of the game fundamentally means you can't line up stats a certain way

washington is averaging more rebounds than he did last year. saying he's playing tougher or rebounding better would trigger most of this board though

[Rays Pompadour]

Good analysis, JMAC3. Like others have said, the stats don't tell the whole story, but they do shine light on some of the narrative. It tells us that the Hornets are content to let the position alone for the time being.

It also reinforces the time-tested theory that all things look better when you're winning. Charlotte beat Brooklyn, so there's reason to exhale a little bit. But if the losing starts and sustains, the front office's inaction to address interior defense and rebounding will become a klaxon alarm blaring in the night.

[JMAC3]

Problem is the rebounding stats don’t tell the full story. Opposing players are driving into the lane with impunity and scoring repeatedly. We have no shot blocking presence. We don’t block out well (at least consistently). Importance of bigs and size/strength will show itself over a wider grouping of games. PJ as a tiny 5 isn’t going to cut it. Biz has his moments as an undersized C but he hardly intimidates. Matched against significant power he will foul out or surrender too much.

I loved our win against Brooklyn but they just weren’t ready for that game. Coasted along thinking the stars would save them (and nearly did).

I agree stats can't tell the entire story, but you have to use them to some degree and when you compare 3-4 stats and not just 1 stat you should start to get an accurate picture.

As far as opposing players scoring in the lane repeatedly here are some stats for points in the paint for all three games

Game 1 vs Cavs
Cavs 62 points in paint vs hornets 56 points in paint (Net -6)

Game 2 vs Thunder
Thunder 48 points in paint vs Hornets 42 point in paint (Net -6)

Game 3 vs Nets
Nets 26 points in paint vs Hornets 64 points in paint (Net + 38)

So over three game sample (which is small) we are + 26 points scored in paint vs opponents

[JMAC3]

The impact of a centre, or any position really, can’t be assessed by head to head stats. That’s a really lazy take.

The centre position can significantly impact how a team plays, the whole team, and especially what they can and can not do on defence.

The position also significantly dictates what the opposing teams can and can’t do.


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I agree once again stats can not tell a full picture, but when you start to piece multiple stats together you should be able to get most of the picture. I am using Oreb, rebounds, blocked shots, points, shooting percentages, points in the paint etc...

Also, I have watched all but maybe 6 minutes of all three games combined so I am not going 100% off stats. I think we all use the eye test here as well which is great, but I do not agree with What Big Slam Sees trumps all stats that can be laid out.

Obviously as I have said in past once we play against Embiid or Jokic we will be at a significant disadvantage at the position, but thus far this season I believe we have played pretty evenly.

[BigSlam]

Obviously as I have said in past once we play against Embiid or Jokic we will be at a significant disadvantage at the position, but thus far this season I believe we have played pretty evenly.

Disagree again.

The only thing that saved us from complete embarrassment in the 1st game was Terry going nuts and putting up 42 points. Had he not we’d have lost by 50+.

In Game #2 had Miles not gone full Reggie Miller mode and scored 9 points in 19 seconds to end the game we’d have lost by 10+.

Game #3 is the outlier so far, although it’s obviously a very small sample size with the season so young.


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[JMAC3]

Obviously as I have said in past once we play against Embiid or Jokic we will be at a significant disadvantage at the position, but thus far this season I believe we have played pretty evenly.

Disagree again.

The only thing that saved us from complete embarrassment in the 1st game was Terry going nuts and putting up 42 points. Had he not we’d have lost by 50+.

In Game #2 had Miles not gone full Reggie Miller mode and scored 9 points in 19 seconds to end the game we’d have lost by 10+.

Game #3 is the outlier so far, although it’s obviously a very small sample size with the season so young.


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Sorry I meant from a Center position we have played evenly... obviously from a total team aspect we have underachieved, but you can not confidently correlate that back to being our center rotation fault. You can speculate that it is our centers fault, but you could also speculate it is point guards fault who is shooting sub 30% or blame coaching or overall poor shooting from everyone not named Terry.

[amcoolio]

Wiseman's defense has been really bad, so its not like he would have been the savior. I said that unless you are on Jokic/Embiid level we shouldn't shell out tons of money for centers. Whiteside would have been fine here. Baynes too. We just waited way too long on Hayward/Boston/Batum and we missed out on everyone. I never said center wasn't important. I just didn't think Wiseman was worth the #3 pick. I would love to have Wiseman here, but we made the right choice not trading up for him. There's already a better Wiseman in next year's draft. And if we aren't in position to draft Mobley then there are sleeper bigs every year in the late lottery-first round, which is where Bam Adebayo, Jokic, Nurkic, Vucevic, Gobert, Giannis, and Sabonis were drafted

[SWedd523]

I'll echo a mixture of what Bass, Slam, and Dynasty are saying.

The lack of an interior presence on both offense and defense completely reshapes the way the Hornets approach the game and how opponents approach the Hornets.

The team is built exclusively around perimeter shooting, and that really doesn't work unless you have elite perimeter players.

You see it's downfall any time one or more of the main guys has a cold night. The team becomes stagnant and predictable, teams hedge everything and force a bunch of 6ft tall guards to make shots.

Imagine how much more efficient Devonte would be playing off a big like Vucevic. Imagine how many more assists Melo could have with a guy like that or even a good roll man

To make matters worse, the team has no intentior defensive presence that makes opposing offenses scared. The guards either cheat down and help the post which gives the opponent open looks from deep or they stay tight on the perimeter and give up pick and roll or easy shots in the post.

The team is entirely one dimensional on both ends of the floor and it makes them an easy scout. It doesn't really matter how good Borrego is with scheming because there isn't enough talent to force opponents to react. They're always trying to respond to the other team and the imbalance in the roster limits what the guards can do even more.

I'm not even a big proponent of big dudes, but I was hard advocating for Wiseman because I realize that he would (assuming he wouldn't bust) help unlock opportunities for the guards and give Borrego more space in the playbook to attack opposing teams on both ends of the floor.

Melo looks like he may* prove me wrong and may* be a high level lead guard, but the team is still going to be a bottom feeder until they get a talented big to balance the roster

[JMAC3]

I'll echo a mixture of what Bass, Slam, and Dynasty are saying.

The lack of an interior presence on both offense and defense completely reshapes the way the Hornets approach the game and how opponents approach the Hornets.

The team is built exclusively around perimeter shooting, and that really doesn't work unless you have elite perimeter players.

You see it's downfall any time one or more of the main guys has a cold night. The team becomes stagnant and predictable, teams hedge everything and force a bunch of 6ft tall guards to make shots.

Imagine how much more efficient Devonte would be playing off a big like Vucevic. Imagine how many more assists Melo could have with a guy like that or even a good roll man

To make matters worse, the team has no intentior defensive presence that makes opposing offenses scared. The guards either cheat down and help the post which gives the opponent open looks from deep or they stay tight on the perimeter and give up pick and roll or easy shots in the post.

The team is entirely one dimensional on both ends of the floor and it makes them an easy scout. It doesn't really matter how good Borrego is with scheming because there isn't enough talent to force opponents to react. They're always trying to respond to the other team and the imbalance in the roster limits what the guards can do even more.

I'm not even a big proponent of big dudes, but I was hard advocating for Wiseman because I realize that he would (assuming he wouldn't bust) help unlock opportunities for the guards and give Borrego more space in the playbook to attack opposing teams on both ends of the floor.

Melo looks like he may* prove me wrong and may* be a high level lead guard, but the team is still going to be a bottom feeder until they get a talented big to balance the roster

I don't think anyone is claiming that we would not want a good big on the roster, but how do we get one? who were we signing or trading for? Is everyone claiming a good big would fix these issues assuming Wiseman is that guy?

Wiseman has been good thus far, but he is not a guy that teams are doubling, he is not a guy Warriors are running offense through or dumping the ball into the paint to. From a Scheme standpoint teams are leaving him wide ass open from three thus far and he has made 5 out of 6 of them, which is awesome but he won't shoot over 80% from three. He also hit a couple deep twos which again is awesome for him, but I do not think that is going to be a huge part of his game and if so I do not think that changes how teams are going to defend that much. He is shooting 10 for 26 (38.5%) from 2 point range yet he is somehow already the answer that would fix this team. Pump the brakes.

Vucevic would be great for us on offense, but he is not a good defender and he also is not available, so not sure why he keeps getting brought up. I would love one of the top 7 centers to be on the Hornets, if he is free sign me up. However those players are not available and if they are we are trading two of our best players for them.

[Rays Pompadour]

Melo looks like he may* prove me wrong and may* be a high level lead guard, but the team is still going to be a bottom feeder until they get a talented big to balance the roster

This was the underlying reason to advocate for drafting Wiseman - roster balance. I agree that the unbalanced roster remains, though shooting may be a more present need. Markkanen comes immediately to mind. Doesn't matter. I'm convinced the Hornets aren't going anywhere with this.

[DY_nasty]

i think unbalanced rosters build horrendous habits for young players as well. like maybe kemba would be able to throw a lob or play real defense instead of hunting charges all day if he played with a modern center lol

[JMAC3]

Again is everyone advocating that we messed up and should of traded both Bridges and Lamelo for Wiseman? Is Wiseman fixing these many many issues with the Hornets that everyone is saying is our fault for not having a top 10 big in the league?

It kind of just feels like people are yelling and screaming right now "We need better bigs" but not really saying how we could of done that or which bigs fix it or how we get those bigs.

If we are anointing Wiseman as the answer to this problem, then that feels really premature to me considering we have seen 3 games of NBA action this season. We should be making decisions in the draft for the longterm value of a player and not just how they can help us next week.