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Center Options

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Re: Center Options 

Post#381 » by JMAC3 » Wed Jul 28, 2021 12:59 pm

Braggins wrote:
LofJ wrote:If the Jazz are offering the 30th pick to salary dump Derrick Favors we should take that and run. He would have been the best big on our roster last year.

Are they trying to do this? Favors probably wouldn't be my first choice, but hes serviceable enough and not much better/worse than the guys I think they should be looking at in free agency, so this seems like a really interesting option to me if its on the table.


I would probably hold off on this for a week or so, sure getting a first would be great... but I would rather have flexibility entering FA. If we strike out on our guys, we can always circle back to Jazz and take him back for 2 future seconds.

If Holmes, Noel etc are looking for big money.... We can absorb Favors into our cap space. I see no rush to do this now before market is set though.
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Re: Center Options 

Post#382 » by Bassman » Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:30 pm

BigSlam wrote:
Bassman wrote:No guarantee that any big we’d draft at 11 will ever develop. Whomever it is will be a far worse center over the next several years than Myles.



Bassman wrote:No guarantee that any wing we’d draft at 11 will ever develop. Whomever it is will be a far worse wing over the next several years than Gordon.



See what I did there?


Slam, here is the difference. We trade Hayward, we slide Miles into the 3, play PJ at his natural 4, with Turner our 5. I would contend that brings little drop off if any should Bridges continue his play level from late last year. Keep Hayward and draft a center…we have a very unproven commodity at the 5. Yes we can sign someone in free agency, but is that center better than Turner? If so does it cost us a massive contract/overpay?
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Re: Center Options 

Post#383 » by amcoolio » Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:37 pm

Bassman wrote:
BigSlam wrote:
Bassman wrote:No guarantee that any big we’d draft at 11 will ever develop. Whomever it is will be a far worse center over the next several years than Myles.



Bassman wrote:No guarantee that any wing we’d draft at 11 will ever develop. Whomever it is will be a far worse wing over the next several years than Gordon.



See what I did there?


Slam, here is the difference. We trade Hayward, we slide Miles into the 3, play PJ at his natural 4, with Turner our 5. I would contend that brings little drop off if any should Bridges continue his play level from late last year. Keep Hayward and draft a center…we have a very unproven commodity at the 5. Yes we can sign someone in free agency, but is that center better than Turner? If so does it cost us a massive contract/overpay?


We'd be significantly worse because then we wouldn't have a creator/scorer at the 3, 4, and 5 and would struggle to get to 100 points most nights unless LaMelo takes a Luka-like leap, but you've seen how Dallas has been without more scorer/playmaker types, they barely get to the playoffs and then lose

Turner is a role player. He is what he is. He blocks shots, improves defense and sits on the perimeter and shoots 3's at an average rate. He gets killed by Embiid/Jokic types and won't help you much in the playoffs. Not to mention he is injury prone. Hayward is a scorer/playmaker. You don't trade scorer/playmakers for role players unless you have too many and need to balance it out.
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Re: Center Options 

Post#384 » by BigSlam » Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:51 pm

amcoolio wrote:
Bassman wrote:
BigSlam wrote:See what I did there?


Slam, here is the difference. We trade Hayward, we slide Miles into the 3, play PJ at his natural 4, with Turner our 5. I would contend that brings little drop off if any should Bridges continue his play level from late last year. Keep Hayward and draft a center…we have a very unproven commodity at the 5. Yes we can sign someone in free agency, but is that center better than Turner? If so does it cost us a massive contract/overpay?


We'd be significantly worse because then we wouldn't have a creator/scorer at the 3, 4, and 5 and would struggle to get to 100 points most nights unless LaMelo takes a Luka-like leap.

This ^

All those times that our offense went completely stagnant when Gordo was out would be magnified times 1,000 if he wasn't on the roster at all and not replaced with someone who could do the same.

You can not overstate his importance with his ability to create offense from all 3 levels (from 3, from mid range and from the line) when we really need some buckets to stop the opposing teams momentum.
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Re: Center Options 

Post#385 » by Rays Pompadour » Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:13 pm

I sense that not much will be cleared up tomorrow night regarding the center position, no matter whom the Hornets select.

I just don't think the draft will solve this problem. All the available center prospects in Charlotte's draft range will require development such that anything more than token or occasional minutes next season would be a happy surprise. No, I believe the answer is currently on someone else's roster. Trading away talent such as Hayward would go against the Hornets' draft and develop philosophy. He's integral to the organization's overall plan in that regard.

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Re: Center Options 

Post#386 » by Benjamin Linus » Wed Jul 28, 2021 9:51 pm

The case for Myles Turner

The one skill we need the most out of the center position is rim protection IMO. Not having a center that can protect the paint has had a ripple effect that impacts the other areas of our defense. For instance, we gave up more three point attempts than any other team last season. Due in large part from having to send our perimeter players into the paint to help our bigs, leaving guys open on the outside. On top of that, missed three pointers have a high offensive rebound rate which is another area of weakness (we had the 3rd worst defensive rebounding percentage). So getting a rim protector could also improve our perimeter defense and defensive rebounding and Myles Turner is one of the best rim protectors in the league

Another thing is Miles Bridges averaged 19 and 7 on 52/47 during that hot stretch in April. Some of that's from playing more PF and some of that's from being more aggressive. I think an underrated part of that was PJ starting at center during that stretch averaging 15 ppg and shooting 43% from three on 6 attempts per game. PJ was creating some real gravity pulling opposing centers out of the paint and creating space for Bridges. Just something to consider. Turner is one of the rare bigs that can defend the paint on one end and open up the paint on the other

The case against Myles Turner

We could really use an athletic big that can finish, run the floor, be a lob threat, a rim runner, and someone who can get offensive boards. Turner is none of that. That's the kind of big you want with LaMelo. Even beyond LaMelo our team is so drive and kick heavy. We've got a lot of players that can shoot, drive and score, and drive and dish. An athletic big that excels in the dunkers spot would EAT on a team like ours. He's also pretty bad on the glass (has never averaged more than 7.3 rpg). Even Cody averages more boards than Turner while playing 10 mpg less than him

I keep going back and forth on the guy. I still don't think I'd give up anything substantial for him. I would be okay with trading PJ for him, maybe Hayward to get out of his contract, but not both and I definitely wouldn't attach the 11th pick to either of those deals
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Re: Center Options 

Post#387 » by luciano-davidwesley » Wed Jul 28, 2021 11:52 pm

Braggins wrote:
LofJ wrote:If the Jazz are offering the 30th pick to salary dump Derrick Favors we should take that and run. He would have been the best big on our roster last year.

Are they trying to do this? Favors probably wouldn't be my first choice, but hes serviceable enough and not much better/worse than the guys I think they should be looking at in free agency, so this seems like a really interesting option to me if its on the table.

Apparently the Jazz and Conley Jr want to resign but a fair deal would put them significantly into the luxury tax. Therefore they allegedly want to dump salary on some of their fringe players. Favors + # 30 for a fake second or # 57 or Thing 2 salary dump would be a great deal for us. We significantly upgrade from Biz and resign Zeller cheap or go with Vern as the backup. We draft BPA at 11 and then a Kai Jones/Isaiah Jackson/DayRon Sharpe type at 30.

Favors soon-expiring deal would also be interesting for salary matching in trades.
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Center Options 

Post#388 » by BigSlam » Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:15 am

luciano-davidwesley wrote:Apparently the Jazz and Conley Jr want to resign but a fair deal would put them significantly into the luxury tax. Therefore they allegedly want to dump salary on some of their fringe players. Favors + # 30 for a fake second or # 57 or Thing 2 salary dump would be a great deal for us. We significantly upgrade from Biz and resign Zeller cheap or go with Vern as the backup. We draft BPA at 11 and then a Kai Jones/Isaiah Jackson/DayRon Sharpe type at 30.

Favors soon-expiring deal would also be interesting for salary matching in trades.

Favors + #30
for
A fake second (top 55 protected)

????

That would be AMAZING IMO.

Imagine walking away from tomorrow night with:

Favors
Moody or Kispert
Jackson or Sharpe or Bassey (I don’t think Kai is there at #30)

Yes please!!!!
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Re: Center Options 

Post#389 » by Vanderbilt_Grad » Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:26 am

Favors & 30 for essentially capspace would be an interesting trade.
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2020 Draft (3rd pick) - Tyrese Haliburton, Devin Vassell, or Onyeka Okongwu
2021 Draft (11th pick) - Moses Moody
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Re: Center Options 

Post#390 » by Bassman » Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:32 am

This notion about Favors sounds decent on paper, but not sure how much better we really are with him. I want a significant jump up in production and effectiveness from the 5. Yes we’re all excited about our team’s possibilities, but come on folks, when it came down to crunch time we folded up like a lawn chair. It’s going to take significant upgrades combined with existing player advancement to get into the playoffs and do something when we arrive.

A number of you argue to keep Hayward, and I agree he does create some great offense when he is HEALTHY. I’m convinced Gordon is always going to get hurt. Some people just become more prone to injury as they get older. Hayward has a big contract that some here complained about. I like him.

Turner might not be the route we ultimately take, but if not, I want a BIG upgrade this season at 5. No pick at 11 will impact that spot. What free agent can? The better ones discussed here get some of this community complaining that their price will be an overpay. Frankly who is out there worth their value that is NOT an overpay? Supply and demand. Get a really good one now and pay more…because the really good ones will cost a lot more next year.

Speaking of…some advocate waiting until next season to go after one of the more numerous notable centers available. That’s certainly a strategy, but can we really afford one? Can we really attract one here? Not sure. I’d rather identify that quality 5 whose ready now, not perfect but still young and fits our needs. Allen? Holmes? If not Turner, gotta be one of them to be worthwhile. Getting Noel or even Favors is a kind of a treadmill move (for that position).
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Re: Center Options 

Post#391 » by LofJ » Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:41 am

There aren't any long-term solutions at the center position available in free agency this summer. We either have to trade for one or be patient and wait until next summer when there will be more/better options.

Also, Rishaun Holmes isn't young, Favors is only two years older than him. The Kings defense was also god awful last year, I'm not sure if Holmes is even that good. If we want a defensive presence Nerlens Noel should be our target.
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Re: Center Options 

Post#392 » by Braggins » Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:59 am

LofJ wrote:There aren't any long-term solutions at the center position available in free agency this summer. We either have to trade for one or be patient and wait until next summer when there will be more/better options.

Also, Rishaun Holmes isn't young, Favors is only two years older than him. The Kings defense was also god awful last year, I'm not sure if Holmes is even that good. If we want a defensive presence Nerlens Noel should be our target.

Agree, our options in free agency are to either completely blow whats left of our wad on Holmes/Allen, which I'm not a fan of, or sign someone roughly similar to Favors for around what Favors currently makes. I think Noel and Theis might be slightly better fits, but they are all similar level and with this Favors deal we'd be getting another potential young asset that fits the LaMelo timeline.

I think our best long term solutions for center is going to come from the draft or from being patient and looking for a better situation to pick up a good center with less opportunity cost. I don't think going in with the mindset that we HAVE to completely solve the center situation immediately is a bad idea.
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Re: Center Options 

Post#393 » by Rays Pompadour » Thu Jul 29, 2021 1:16 am

Braggins wrote:
LofJ wrote:There aren't any long-term solutions at the center position available in free agency this summer. We either have to trade for one or be patient and wait until next summer when there will be more/better options.

Also, Rishaun Holmes isn't young, Favors is only two years older than him. The Kings defense was also god awful last year, I'm not sure if Holmes is even that good. If we want a defensive presence Nerlens Noel should be our target.

Agree, our options in free agency are to either completely blow whats left of our wad on Holmes/Allen, which I'm not a fan of, or sign someone roughly similar to Favors for around what Favors currently makes. I think Noel and Theis might be slightly better fits, but they are all similar level and with this Favors deal we'd be getting another potential young asset that fits the LaMelo timeline.

I think our best long term solutions for center is going to come from the draft or from being patient and looking for a better situation to pick up a good center with less opportunity cost. I don't think going in with the mindset that we HAVE to completely solve the center situation immediately is a bad idea.


Agreed. Doing anything under duress is a losing proposition.

But we have an existing problem at center that should be addressed in the short term, somehow. If Charlotte can find a long-term solution, well, then, great. But the issue is urgent and will continue to be until Kupchak addresses it.

I've argued that the answer to Charlotte's urgent need for a center is likely not in the draft. Is it possible the Hornets capture lightning in a bottle two drafts in a row? Sure. But it would be foolish to bank on it. The answer is most likely to come from elsewhere, whether it be a short-term fix in free agency (fine with it) or more long-term with an equitable trade.

I personally wish for Kupchak to be proactive in solving this problem as opposed to waiting for fate to smile. I guess this approach would be done under pressure but not duress. The duress part comes when you're losing.
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Re: Center Options 

Post#394 » by JDR720 » Thu Jul 29, 2021 1:29 am

Next years FA crop isn't that great either. Valanciunas, Nurkic, Thomas Bryant, Bamba.

Probably slightly better than this class.

An option that hasn't been mentioned much is Kanter. At the very least would rebound and score. Cheap too, he only made 5m this season. Then next season I'd make an offer to Bamba, I doubt Orlando would match.
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Re: Center Options 

Post#395 » by Rich4114 » Thu Jul 29, 2021 2:31 am

Sign me up for the Favors deal!
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Re: Center Options 

Post#396 » by luciano-davidwesley » Thu Jul 29, 2021 2:54 am

BigSlam wrote:
luciano-davidwesley wrote:Apparently the Jazz and Conley Jr want to resign but a fair deal would put them significantly into the luxury tax. Therefore they allegedly want to dump salary on some of their fringe players. Favors + # 30 for a fake second or # 57 or Thing 2 salary dump would be a great deal for us. We significantly upgrade from Biz and resign Zeller cheap or go with Vern as the backup. We draft BPA at 11 and then a Kai Jones/Isaiah Jackson/DayRon Sharpe type at 30.

Favors soon-expiring deal would also be interesting for salary matching in trades.

Favors + #30
for
A fake second (top 55 protected)

????

That would be AMAZING IMO.

Imagine walking away from tomorrow night with:

Favors
Moody or Kispert
Jackson or Sharpe or Bassey (I don’t think Kai is there at #30)

Yes please!!!!


I'm on board but change Kispert to Jalen Johnson (my draft crush this year) lol
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Re: Center Options 

Post#397 » by wilson115 » Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:34 pm

Suns homers did a good job here:



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Re: Center Options 

Post#398 » by vtime » Thu Jul 29, 2021 11:42 pm

Well Plumlee comes back to North Carolina. He’ll finish Melo’s passes
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Re: Center Options 

Post#399 » by BigSlam » Thu Jul 29, 2021 11:45 pm

With Mason now in the fold should we lock this thread up and put it to bed?
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Re: Center Options 

Post#400 » by JDR720 » Wed Nov 10, 2021 12:35 am

Unlocked and bumped this thread. As it's still a major issue.

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