How Do They Fix The Defense?
Moderators: fatlever, JDR720, Diop, BigSlam, yosemiteben
How Do They Fix The Defense?
-
- Lead Assistant
- Posts: 5,959
- And1: 2,070
- Joined: Jul 02, 2006
- Location: Bye FL back to MO; NC born & bred
-
How Do They Fix The Defense?
I’m not able to watch as many games as I’d like, but do find as much game footage as I can from each one. Apart from FIRING CLIFF, how do they fix the defense?
In my view, the scheme is poor, but it’s not just that. Coach chooses to protect the paint and force teams to make jump shots (especially 3’s). This strategy results in prolific shooting from nearly every opponent. Even when we have guys racing to close out on their perimeter opponent, they get into their shot rhythm far too easily. The OTHER issue is our inability to stop dribble drives or shake off screens for same. LaMelo is trying harder than ever but his D is still average at best. Miller is pretty good but he has difficulty guarding quicker SG’s. We know Rozier is a turnstile. Gordon is no longer quick enough at the point of attack.
IMO, there is no immediate fix for this via different personnel. Who knows if we can trade Terry or Gordo for a defensive stopper.
I suggest they try to emulate the Pacers scheme this season, which is to play tougher perimeter D, and depend on Mark and Miles to defend the paint. The downside is in too many fouls too early, but ya gotta let the condor swat so they become reluctant to penetrate. Rebound, then go FAST on breaks, and pass-pass-pass the ball. Our offense is not an issue except for our bench, but getting everyone healthy should improve that somewhat.
What are your suggestions?
In my view, the scheme is poor, but it’s not just that. Coach chooses to protect the paint and force teams to make jump shots (especially 3’s). This strategy results in prolific shooting from nearly every opponent. Even when we have guys racing to close out on their perimeter opponent, they get into their shot rhythm far too easily. The OTHER issue is our inability to stop dribble drives or shake off screens for same. LaMelo is trying harder than ever but his D is still average at best. Miller is pretty good but he has difficulty guarding quicker SG’s. We know Rozier is a turnstile. Gordon is no longer quick enough at the point of attack.
IMO, there is no immediate fix for this via different personnel. Who knows if we can trade Terry or Gordo for a defensive stopper.
I suggest they try to emulate the Pacers scheme this season, which is to play tougher perimeter D, and depend on Mark and Miles to defend the paint. The downside is in too many fouls too early, but ya gotta let the condor swat so they become reluctant to penetrate. Rebound, then go FAST on breaks, and pass-pass-pass the ball. Our offense is not an issue except for our bench, but getting everyone healthy should improve that somewhat.
What are your suggestions?
I continue to wait...and hope...for the return to Hornet's glory.
Re: How Do They Fix The Defense?
- SWedd523
- RealGM
- Posts: 13,481
- And1: 6,450
- Joined: Jul 07, 2009
-
Re: How Do They Fix The Defense?
They need a roster and coaching shakeup with an infusion of guys who care more about playing hard than looking cool

Re: How Do They Fix The Defense?
- yosemiteben
- Forum Mod - Hornets
- Posts: 22,214
- And1: 15,458
- Joined: Mar 20, 2013
-
Re: How Do They Fix The Defense?
Bassman wrote:I suggest they try to emulate the Pacers scheme this season, which is to play tougher perimeter D, and depend on Mark and Miles to defend the paint.
You are complaining about our 29th ranked defense, and your solution is for us to try to be more like the Pacers' 30th ranked defense. Was there a reason you thought Indiana has a defense worth trying to replicate?
Re: How Do They Fix The Defense?
- amcoolio
- Hornets Forum John Hancock
- Posts: 17,727
- And1: 10,068
- Joined: Jun 14, 2004
- Location: Servant to lord Bargnani
-
Re: How Do They Fix The Defense?
yeah for all the talk of Haliburton being a great defender over LaMelo, the Pacers are on pace for being one of the worst defensive teams in recent history lol
Only way to change this is roster and coaching shake up
Only way to change this is roster and coaching shake up
Re: How Do They Fix The Defense?
-
- Lead Assistant
- Posts: 4,865
- And1: 1,897
- Joined: Jul 13, 2009
Re: How Do They Fix The Defense?
The main thing you have to defend in the league is the pick and roll. Nobody does it perfectly but plenty of teams do it better than us.
Under JB the answer was to switch every time. This negates the pick and roll but instead leaves you in a lot of terrible matchups. Your bigs are going to be isolated vs the other teams guards and your guards are going to get posted by the other teams bigs. Also when you play a team with a real center, your small ball center is undersized.
Under Clifford you see drop coverage every time. We bring help to assist in defense of the pick and roll that starts a series of rotations. One missed assignment and the other team gets easy points. Even if we do everything well a team that knows how to move the ball will find an open shot.
The answer is we have to mix things up and play both types of coverage at times. It would also be good to mix in some zone and some press. Defense is about making the other team uncomfortable and breaking their rhythm. It is hard to be the aggressor if you only do one thing and the other guys know what it is going to be.
Under JB the answer was to switch every time. This negates the pick and roll but instead leaves you in a lot of terrible matchups. Your bigs are going to be isolated vs the other teams guards and your guards are going to get posted by the other teams bigs. Also when you play a team with a real center, your small ball center is undersized.
Under Clifford you see drop coverage every time. We bring help to assist in defense of the pick and roll that starts a series of rotations. One missed assignment and the other team gets easy points. Even if we do everything well a team that knows how to move the ball will find an open shot.
The answer is we have to mix things up and play both types of coverage at times. It would also be good to mix in some zone and some press. Defense is about making the other team uncomfortable and breaking their rhythm. It is hard to be the aggressor if you only do one thing and the other guys know what it is going to be.
Re: How Do They Fix The Defense?
-
- Lead Assistant
- Posts: 4,865
- And1: 1,897
- Joined: Jul 13, 2009
Re: How Do They Fix The Defense?
Also a lot of the problem with transition defense is just terrible possessions on offense. When we throw up some prayer out of a one on one look because there are two seconds left on the shot clock the other team is likely getting a rebound or block or some possession that allows them to push the ball.
We need to make other teams as uncomfortable as we are on defense. If the Celtis have Porzingis out there, make him defend the pick and roll every single possession. If he wants to play drop coverage Lamelo should be coming off a pick, toeing the 3pt line for a shot. We let people off the hook to much with one on one play, deep threes ect.
We need to make other teams as uncomfortable as we are on defense. If the Celtis have Porzingis out there, make him defend the pick and roll every single possession. If he wants to play drop coverage Lamelo should be coming off a pick, toeing the 3pt line for a shot. We let people off the hook to much with one on one play, deep threes ect.
Re: How Do They Fix The Defense?
-
- Lead Assistant
- Posts: 5,959
- And1: 2,070
- Joined: Jul 02, 2006
- Location: Bye FL back to MO; NC born & bred
-
Re: How Do They Fix The Defense?
yosemiteben wrote:Bassman wrote:I suggest they try to emulate the Pacers scheme this season, which is to play tougher perimeter D, and depend on Mark and Miles to defend the paint.
You are complaining about our 29th ranked defense, and your solution is for us to try to be more like the Pacers' 30th ranked defense. Was there a reason you thought Indiana has a defense worth trying to replicate?
It was a reach for a quick solution given our current mix of players and their strengths/weaknesses. Even with a 30th ranked D, they are 8-6 as of today. The REAL solution isn’t that…we need better defensive players to complement our core guys. But scheme has to be adjusted in some fashion to improve.
I continue to wait...and hope...for the return to Hornet's glory.
Re: How Do They Fix The Defense?
- JDR720
- Forum Mod - Hornets
- Posts: 44,041
- And1: 45,449
- Joined: Jul 09, 2013
-
Re: How Do They Fix The Defense?
Frank will save us.
Re: How Do They Fix The Defense?
-
- RealGM
- Posts: 11,330
- And1: 4,678
- Joined: Mar 11, 2004
- Location: PA
-
Re: How Do They Fix The Defense?
GoBobs wrote:Also a lot of the problem with transition defense is just terrible possessions on offense. When we throw up some prayer out of a one on one look because there are two seconds left on the shot clock the other team is likely getting a rebound or block or some possession that allows them to push the ball.
We need to make other teams as uncomfortable as we are on defense. If the Celtis have Porzingis out there, make him defend the pick and roll every single possession. If he wants to play drop coverage Lamelo should be coming off a pick, toeing the 3pt line for a shot. We let people off the hook to much with one on one play, deep threes ect.
This is very much a big part of it, I agree 100%. Our offense under Clifford has been pitiful and if not for LaMelo doing basically everything himself through a ton of traffic, I don't know if we'd ever break 90 points. There's just zero movement, guys standing in one spot and then whoever ends up with the ball makes a move as the shot clock is dwindling and is forced into traffic for a highly contested shot or turnover. The spacing is awful too. I highly suspect this is Clifford just not running offense or the fact that we have minimal playmaking outside of LaMelo. If the first option isn't there, there is no second option or go to play. We don't really set screens if Mark isn't in either. The few times we get decent looks, it's guys like Terry, PJ and Gordon bricking the **** out of the ball.
Now, we've seen Clifford teams traditionally be better in the second half of seasons. That 2016 season we went on one of the best winning tears I've ever seen this franchise have where other teams were calling us "Golden State East" at one point. So maybe whatever he's trying to do finally clicks with this roster, but how much of a hole will we be in by then? Our record by mid January might be unrecoverable. They will need to find a way to scratch and claw some wins here before LaMelo is back.
Re: How Do They Fix The Defense?
- JMAC3
- RealGM
- Posts: 13,220
- And1: 6,240
- Joined: May 22, 2010
-
Re: How Do They Fix The Defense?
Honesty hour? We have to get a guy that is more physical on defense. IDC if its perimeter or post defender.
Miles Bridges is our only physical defender, everyone else plays super soft and doesn't pressure the ball handler.
Brandon Miller specifically plays super passive defense, he does a good job of playing with his hands high and trying to use his length, but he also avoids all contact with the offensive player. I am not sure if this is how Clifford wants him to play right now because of fouls, but he has to eventually get more physical. He is a rookie, 90% of the time they will be bad defenders. Ausar even with all the tools and highlights and steals and blocks still grades as a bad defender by most advanced numbers.
Mark isn't a good defender. He is out of position down low a ton whether it is leaving his man on drives or getting caught too high in drop coverage and getting lobs over the top. He also attempts to block shots in the paint he has no chance at and leaves the rim wide open for offensive rebounds and putback dunks. Our defense would be better if he never challenged shots and just focused on clearing the boards. I think he could stand to lose a little weight, he seems to have lost a bit of bounce or twitchyness from last year.
Thor isn't a defender. The guy is just a body. I would be offering him in a deal to get another guard defender.
PJ and Hayward have been bad team defenders this year. They each have moments as individual defenders but they have to improve their positioning.
Getting Frank Ntilikina back might be a nice defensive upgrade off bench over Ish/McGowens, but we need another starter to improve defense. Our best bets are probably Miller or Mark taking a giant step the 2nd half of the year.
Miles Bridges is our only physical defender, everyone else plays super soft and doesn't pressure the ball handler.
Brandon Miller specifically plays super passive defense, he does a good job of playing with his hands high and trying to use his length, but he also avoids all contact with the offensive player. I am not sure if this is how Clifford wants him to play right now because of fouls, but he has to eventually get more physical. He is a rookie, 90% of the time they will be bad defenders. Ausar even with all the tools and highlights and steals and blocks still grades as a bad defender by most advanced numbers.
Mark isn't a good defender. He is out of position down low a ton whether it is leaving his man on drives or getting caught too high in drop coverage and getting lobs over the top. He also attempts to block shots in the paint he has no chance at and leaves the rim wide open for offensive rebounds and putback dunks. Our defense would be better if he never challenged shots and just focused on clearing the boards. I think he could stand to lose a little weight, he seems to have lost a bit of bounce or twitchyness from last year.
Thor isn't a defender. The guy is just a body. I would be offering him in a deal to get another guard defender.
PJ and Hayward have been bad team defenders this year. They each have moments as individual defenders but they have to improve their positioning.
Getting Frank Ntilikina back might be a nice defensive upgrade off bench over Ish/McGowens, but we need another starter to improve defense. Our best bets are probably Miller or Mark taking a giant step the 2nd half of the year.
Re: How Do They Fix The Defense?
- JDR720
- Forum Mod - Hornets
- Posts: 44,041
- And1: 45,449
- Joined: Jul 09, 2013
-
Re: How Do They Fix The Defense?
Bumping this.
After realizing we're only 1pt off from the Pistons and Spurs for the worst point differential in the league, I decided to see when the last time our defense didn't give up at least 100pts was.
The answer.... the 2nd game of the season against the Pistons. We gave up 99. The next lowest is 111pts a few times.
Our defense is more likely to give up 125+ than is it to hold an opponent under 115.
After realizing we're only 1pt off from the Pistons and Spurs for the worst point differential in the league, I decided to see when the last time our defense didn't give up at least 100pts was.
The answer.... the 2nd game of the season against the Pistons. We gave up 99. The next lowest is 111pts a few times.
Our defense is more likely to give up 125+ than is it to hold an opponent under 115.
Re: How Do They Fix The Defense?
- Liver_Pooty
- RealGM
- Posts: 40,719
- And1: 16,713
- Joined: Dec 29, 2008
- Location: Asheville, NC
-
Re: How Do They Fix The Defense?
Mark and Miller need minutes and experience. That will fix a lot of the issues next year and going forward. Miles plays solid man to man defense but gets lost at times. But so does half the team. I'm not sure if it's so much lack of effort than situational awareness to be honest.
Balllin wrote:Zion Williamson is 6-5, with a 6-10 wingspan. I see him as a slightly better Kenneth Faried.
Re: How Do They Fix The Defense?
- Diop
- Forum Mod - Hornets
- Posts: 40,340
- And1: 20,714
- Joined: Jul 24, 2004
- Location: Diop Dead Ugly
-
Re: How Do They Fix The Defense?
Miles situational awareness has always been suspect, he’s not terrible defending his direct opponent which I believe is why JB had miles often defending the best player and concentrate on him. He can always be switched out though.
They need to trade for players who want to defend. A new biotic knee for Martin would be nice as well..
They need to trade for players who want to defend. A new biotic knee for Martin would be nice as well..

Re: How Do They Fix The Defense?
-
- Sixth Man
- Posts: 1,888
- And1: 2,163
- Joined: Jul 26, 2009
-
Re: How Do They Fix The Defense?
JDR720 wrote:Bumping this.
After realizing we're only 1pt off from the Pistons and Spurs for the worst point differential in the league, I decided to see when the last time our defense didn't give up at least 100pts was.
The answer.... the 2nd game of the season against the Pistons. We gave up 99. The next lowest is 111pts a few times.
Our defense is more likely to give up 125+ than is it to hold an opponent under 115.
Hate to be the bearer of bad news but we are the ones that had 99 in that game. Pistons had 111. We have not held an opponent under 110 pts this season
Re: How Do They Fix The Defense?
-
- Lead Assistant
- Posts: 5,959
- And1: 2,070
- Joined: Jul 02, 2006
- Location: Bye FL back to MO; NC born & bred
-
Re: How Do They Fix The Defense?
So is it scheme, players, attitude, or all of the above?
Clifford the dog has had top 10 defenses during his tenure here and elsewhere. I don’t like what he has this squad doing, and I certainly don’t like him as our coach, but he’s not a moron relative to understanding defense. So maybe a little bit scheme, but it’s much more.
Players; clearly they are deficient on defense. Melo, Terry, really almost every player on this team can be pointed out now they don’t do on D. Maybe easier to point out who the better defenders are. Well…..a short list. Want to say Mark, and he is pretty good for his experience level, but he needs more strength and is not a shot blocking machine (yet). Anybody want to nominate quality defenders on this team?
Attitude; I don’t sense bad vibes or giving up on the coach…yet…but clearly this team is fighting from behind so much it gets old. That pattern breeds early surrender on defense, leading to being satisfied in using energy toward getting your points. I DO think some of that is a factor.
Clifford the dog has had top 10 defenses during his tenure here and elsewhere. I don’t like what he has this squad doing, and I certainly don’t like him as our coach, but he’s not a moron relative to understanding defense. So maybe a little bit scheme, but it’s much more.
Players; clearly they are deficient on defense. Melo, Terry, really almost every player on this team can be pointed out now they don’t do on D. Maybe easier to point out who the better defenders are. Well…..a short list. Want to say Mark, and he is pretty good for his experience level, but he needs more strength and is not a shot blocking machine (yet). Anybody want to nominate quality defenders on this team?
Attitude; I don’t sense bad vibes or giving up on the coach…yet…but clearly this team is fighting from behind so much it gets old. That pattern breeds early surrender on defense, leading to being satisfied in using energy toward getting your points. I DO think some of that is a factor.
I continue to wait...and hope...for the return to Hornet's glory.
Re: How Do They Fix The Defense?
- amcoolio
- Hornets Forum John Hancock
- Posts: 17,727
- And1: 10,068
- Joined: Jun 14, 2004
- Location: Servant to lord Bargnani
-
Re: How Do They Fix The Defense?
507 players have played a minute in the NBA this season
Defensive Rating:
James Bouknight is 506th
Nathan Mensah 496th
Amari Bailey 495th
Nick Smith 488th
PJ Washington 477th
Terry Rozier 470th
Gordon Hayward 460th
Brandon Miller 440th
Bryce McGowens 429th
Miles Bridges 427th
LaMelo Ball 425th
JT Thor 424th
Nick Richards 418th
Leaky Black 410th
Mark Williams 356th
Just an embarrassing showing. Its probably half the players fault and half the coaching...there doesn't seem to be accountability on either
For all the complaining about LaMelo... and he's one of the problems... he is somehow one of the best defenders on the team!!!
Also, Hayward just looks really slow. I think he's about done being a big minute player. He needs to be in a 18 mpg role off the bench
Defensive Rating:
James Bouknight is 506th
Nathan Mensah 496th
Amari Bailey 495th
Nick Smith 488th
PJ Washington 477th
Terry Rozier 470th
Gordon Hayward 460th
Brandon Miller 440th
Bryce McGowens 429th
Miles Bridges 427th
LaMelo Ball 425th
JT Thor 424th
Nick Richards 418th
Leaky Black 410th
Mark Williams 356th
Just an embarrassing showing. Its probably half the players fault and half the coaching...there doesn't seem to be accountability on either
For all the complaining about LaMelo... and he's one of the problems... he is somehow one of the best defenders on the team!!!
Also, Hayward just looks really slow. I think he's about done being a big minute player. He needs to be in a 18 mpg role off the bench
Re: How Do They Fix The Defense?
- amcoolio
- Hornets Forum John Hancock
- Posts: 17,727
- And1: 10,068
- Joined: Jun 14, 2004
- Location: Servant to lord Bargnani
-
Re: How Do They Fix The Defense?
Tari Eason is 29th by the way, and eye test it shows. That dude knows how to guard
Re: How Do They Fix The Defense?
- amcoolio
- Hornets Forum John Hancock
- Posts: 17,727
- And1: 10,068
- Joined: Jun 14, 2004
- Location: Servant to lord Bargnani
-
Re: How Do They Fix The Defense?
High rating defensive players of players that play, and potential trade targets.... Markelle Fultz, Isaiah Joe, Gabe Vincent
Re: How Do They Fix The Defense?
-
- Lead Assistant
- Posts: 5,959
- And1: 2,070
- Joined: Jul 02, 2006
- Location: Bye FL back to MO; NC born & bred
-
Re: How Do They Fix The Defense?
amcoolio wrote:High rating defensive players of players that play, and potential trade targets.... Markelle Fultz, Isaiah Joe, Gabe Vincent
YES! Guys like these may not be easy to get, but we sure need a PG defender badly. Vincent is out due to knee issue (red flag).
I continue to wait...and hope...for the return to Hornet's glory.
Re: How Do They Fix The Defense?
- Diop
- Forum Mod - Hornets
- Posts: 40,340
- And1: 20,714
- Joined: Jul 24, 2004
- Location: Diop Dead Ugly
-
Re: How Do They Fix The Defense?
That stat has me wanting to shop PJ again, heck
I’m starting to buy into fats sell all but melo, mark and miller train.
We are tanking already anyhow. Trade for fit n character
I’m starting to buy into fats sell all but melo, mark and miller train.
We are tanking already anyhow. Trade for fit n character
