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Game Thread: Charlotte v. Milwaukee 1-6-07

Moderators: fatlever, yosemiteben, Diop, BigSlam, JDR720

Who would you rather have back?

Poll ended at Mon Jan 7, 2008 6:35 am

Adam Morrison
1
6%
Sean May
6
35%
Brevin Knight
4
24%
Brevin Knight
4
24%
Melvin Ely
0
No votes
No one, Come up with better options
2
12%
 
Total votes: 17

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Post#81 » by DaBassSource » Mon Jan 7, 2008 3:19 am

BigSlam wrote:Crash sure did have some sweet assists in that 3rd qtr.
Crash could have tons of assists he actually gets doubled while penetrating. All he has to do is find the open man...which he is getting better at...but I disagree the we don't have a point guard is the problem...we have one he is just playing sg at the moment...make him play point or trade him...put your best post player out there and make them learn to play together...we have to speed up the tempo...or slow it down with a Billups type pg ...
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Post#82 » by Bowens » Mon Jan 7, 2008 3:22 am

We need a new coach.
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Post#83 » by BigSlam » Mon Jan 7, 2008 3:27 am

Bowens wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



Actually when you were away, that is one thing about Wallace that I noticed is much improved. He has been making some beautiful passes, and if Mek didn't have hands of stone, Crash would have many more assists.
Agreed. Along with his FT shooting and playing style making him a constant risk to miss games, him being a bit of a black hole on offense was one of the things in the past that would annoy me the most about Crash.

More than happy to say that he is seing the court a lot better these days. He still has those "me Vs the world" moments, but all in all he's passing fairly well.

I think that playing with Fabio at the end of last season and JRich this season has really helped his ball IQ.

Hamilton said the other week that he didn't think that Crash would be the one to get our 1st tripple double because of his lack of passing, but as he then pointed out, it's improved to a point where he's almost odds on favourite to be "the one".
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Post#84 » by fatlever » Mon Jan 7, 2008 3:35 am

i am numb watching this team play. i dont get excited when we are up and i surely dont feel anything when we lose. that is sad. i should be mad right now.

i guess i pretty much echo what has been written already. okafor and mcminus were AWFUL tonight. mcminus was so bad that when he finally got yanked at the very end of the game the guys on the bench were coming over to console him. he knew he was terrible. as for mek.... nazr played a decent game, not great, but decent, and still outplayed mek by a mile.

i cant really fault wallace... we basically gave him the ball on iso plays for 2 straight quarters. you had to figure the bucks would eventually figure out how to stop him... which they did. w/o wallace we would have been slaughtered. one thing about wallace though.... dude never boxes out and if we are going to keep rolling with this small lineup we will keep getting destroyed on the glass. okafor goes for every single block and wallace lets the other team go through him like a revolving door on their way to grab the offensive rebound.

vincent's insistence on playing mcminus is the most insane thing i have ever witnessed as a fan. until sam quits playing mcminus more than 5-10 minutes, i will blame every single loss on vincent. i wish i knew what sam was thinking.
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Post#85 » by Bowens » Mon Jan 7, 2008 3:37 am

BigSlam wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

Agreed. Along with his FT shooting and playing style making him a constant risk to miss games, him being a bit of a black hole on offense was one of the things in the past that would annoy me the most about Crash.

More than happy to say that he is seing the court a lot better these days. He still has those "me Vs the world" moments, but all in all he's passing fairly well.

I think that playing with Fabio at the end of last season and JRich this season has really helped his ball IQ.

Hamilton said the other week that he didn't think that Crash would be the one to get our 1st tripple double because of his lack of passing, but as he then pointed out, it's improved to a point where he's almost odds on favourite to be "the one".



Yeah it does help that he at least has JRich who he can trust to make shots. His court vision is improving, but I disagree with DaBass when he says we do have a point guard out there. A quality pass first point who can dictate tempo and direct our offense will help everyone immensely. We shouldn not have to rely on Crash to be the main ball handler every other trip down the court. He is simply not good enough to do that.

Also it would be nice if Mek established better position because Crash would be able to easily get him the ball when he penetrates. But too often, Mek lets his man bully him off the block. If we had a center or a PF with soft hands who can get position in the low box, or a big man who could shoot that 6-10 foot shot, how many easy baskets would we get off Wallace's dribble penetration? Instead we have to rely on JRich or Felton shooting 20 footers the majority of the time.

It looks like it's back to the drawing board this summer. Unless Felton substantially improves his play making ability this season, we'll be looking for a new point. And Mek has to go. He wants too much money and his play will simply not be worth the contract.
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Post#86 » by Bowens » Mon Jan 7, 2008 3:42 am

fatlever wrote:i am numb watching this team play. i dont get excited when we are up and i surely dont feel anything when we lose. that is sad. i should be mad right now.

i guess i pretty much echo what has been written already. okafor and mcminus were AWFUL tonight. mcminus was so bad that when he finally got yanked at the very end of the game the guys on the bench were coming over to console him. he knew he was terrible. as for mek.... nazr played a decent game, not great, but decent, and still outplayed mek by a mile.

i cant really fault wallace... we basically gave him the ball on iso plays for 2 straight quarters. you had to figure the bucks would eventually figure out how to stop him... which they did. w/o wallace we would have been slaughtered. one thing about wallace though.... dude never boxes out and if we are going to keep rolling with this small lineup we will keep getting destroyed on the glass. okafor goes for every single block and wallace lets the other team go through him like a revolving door on their way to grab the offensive rebound.

vincent's insistence on playing mcminus is the most insane thing i have ever witnessed as a fan. until sam quits playing mcminus more than 5-10 minutes, i will blame every single loss on vincent. i wish i knew what sam was thinking.


I think we're in agreement on pretty much everything, however, i thought this was one of Wallace's better defensive games. He actually managed to slow his man down on defense. Not all the time, but a lot of the time. McMinus was getting beat off the dribble all game long. Eh gad.

And Mek was simply atrocious. Nothing new there as thats the way he's been playing pretty much the entire year. I cannot believe this is the same player we watched have dominating defensive games last year. Is he hurt?
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Post#87 » by fatlever » Mon Jan 7, 2008 3:48 am

my only beef with wallace tonight was the offensive boards the bucks were getting... but even that i really cant fault him too much. its hard to expect wallace to be able to box out guys like cv, ruffin and yi... but it is an area that he could really improve.

sometimes i feel that our team's love for the blocked shot actually does us more harm than good. hollins, okafor and wallace will ALWAYS go for the block. and doing so leaves the team in bad position for defensive boards.

but a lot of that also starts with the guards keeping their man in front of them.
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Post#88 » by BigSlam » Mon Jan 7, 2008 3:52 am

Bowens wrote:Also it would be nice if Mek established better position because Crash would be able to easily get him the ball when he penetrates.

I would suggest though that if Crash doesn't pass the ball when he has caught it and is in the tripple threat position or after Crash takes the 2nd step of his dribble.................he aint going to pass it!! He locks in on the rim and that is where he is going. Anyone with quick lateral movement will get in front of him, Crash will drop the shoulder and be called for a charge.

He isn't the type who's going to work hard to get to the rim, draw three defenders and dump the ball off to an open man under the rim for an easy basket.

Like I said, within 2 steps he's decided already that he's not going to pass the ball and is going to try and score.

That's something that he needs to work on. If he can get that down then he's going to be all sorts of dangerous.
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Post#89 » by Bowens » Mon Jan 7, 2008 4:00 am

BigSlam wrote:-= original quote snipped =-


I would suggest though that if Crash doesn't pass the ball when he has caught it and is in the tripple threat position or after Crash takes the 2nd step of his dribble.................he aint going to pass it!! He locks in on the rim and that is where he is going. Anyone with quick lateral movement will get in front of him, Crash will drop the shoulder and be called for a charge.

He isn't the type who's going to work hard to get to the rim, draw three defenders and dump the ball off to an open man under the rim for an easy basket.

Like I said, within 2 steps he's decided already that he's not going to pass the ball and is going to try and score.

That's something that he needs to work on. If he can get that down then he's going to be all sorts of dangerous.


I agree with you. Crash does need to make better and quicker decisions out there. Now that we have a soft coach, don't expect Crash to receive the message he needs to make better decisions. But, he definitely has made strides over the past month and has made some really nice passes.

Our spacing on offense has been terrible. That has too fall on the coach.
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Post#90 » by fatlever » Mon Jan 7, 2008 4:00 am

wow... i just looked at the boxscore for the first time.

okafor was -19 and nobody else was more than -5. in a 4 point game where there wasnt a huge 25-0 run or anything.... that's ridiculous.

and nazr was +14.
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Post#91 » by DaBassSource » Mon Jan 7, 2008 4:22 am

[quote="Bowens"][/quote]Bowens I guess we will have to agree to disagree...even though Ray may not be what we want him to be... The majority of the teams in the NBA don't have the type of pg that you are looking for... Unless we trade him we would do better speeding up the tempo adding extra possessions and taking the added TOs which will come from the up tempo style of play...at this point we simply do not score enough points and don't make enough stops on defense to win with the little points we do score...
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Post#92 » by Bowens » Mon Jan 7, 2008 5:06 am

DaBassSource wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

Bowens I guess we will have to agree to disagree...even though Ray may not be what we want him to be... The majority of the teams in the NBA don't have the type of pg that you are looking for... Unless we trade him we would do better speeding up the tempo adding extra possessions and taking the added TOs which will come from the up tempo style of play...at this point we simply do not score enough points and don't make enough stops on defense to win with the little points we do score...


I know, it's very difficult to find a quality point guard, however, Raymond is not even bordering on being competent right now. If he was, he would be at the point!

But I do agree with you that we need to push the pace. Although, when you push the pace you need quicker thinking players who can process what they see much faster. I don't think our team's bball IQ is high enough to quicken the pace. Some players just have that natural instinctive ability to react and see things before their opponents do, apparently ours don't and thats one of the reasons why we suck.
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Post#93 » by DaBassSource » Mon Jan 7, 2008 5:19 am

Bowens wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



I know, it's very difficult to find a quality point guard, however, Raymond is not even bordering on being competent right now. If he was, he would be at the point!

But I do agree with you that we need to push the pace. Although, when you push the pace you need quicker thinking players who can process what they see much faster. I don't think our team's bball IQ is high enough to quicken the pace. Some players just have that natural instinctive ability to react and see things before their opponents do, apparently ours don't and thats one of the reasons why we suck.

guess we will have to disagree on 2 things...I would think there are far fewer things to process in a faster pace offense. in a slow down half court offense you have to process and do many things plus you are not able to make up for any mistakes (not enough possessions) especially when you don't get a lot of offensive rebounds.
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Post#94 » by Bowens » Mon Jan 7, 2008 5:47 am

DaBassSource wrote:-= original quote snipped =-


guess we will have to disagree on 2 things...I would think there are far fewer things to process in a faster pace offense. in a slow down half court offense you have to process and do many things plus you are not able to make up for any mistakes (not enough possessions) especially when you don't get a lot of offensive rebounds.


It depends on what type of faster paced offense you're talking about. You have the Warriors where it's basically a free for all and you're jacking up shots non-stop. Or, you have the Suns who have a purpose on offense and seek to get the ball to the first open man who has a good look. Then you have the old Boston Celtics offense which relied on quick paced passing, players cutting, setting screens and moving without the ball.

A half court offense can still have a quick pace, you just need the right players who are unselfish, smart, can pass and make shots.

The bottom line is we need better passers and players who can think 2 and 3 steps ahead of their opponent. Players that can effectively move without the ball. That helps speed up the tempo.

I'm a little confused as to what exactly it is you want Ray to do?
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Post#95 » by Ballings7 » Mon Jan 7, 2008 5:50 am

Just very disappointing.
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Post#96 » by therebirth » Mon Jan 7, 2008 7:16 am

What has happened to okafor? He and felton has made this season from hell. If Nazr can come in from the bench and play better than okafor then it is not all the pg's fault. This guy expected to get the maximum too? He is going to feel so stupid after this season.
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Post#97 » by Cantgetright » Mon Jan 7, 2008 1:26 pm

Bowens...

I think it's funny that you are saying that no one moves on offense and whenever Crash drives that Okafor has terrible position and it is leading to turnovers or forced 20 foot jumpers from the wing..

Can the same thing not be said for Felton?
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Post#98 » by DaBassSource » Mon Jan 7, 2008 2:50 pm

Bowens wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



It depends on what type of faster paced offense you're talking about. You have the Warriors where it's basically a free for all and you're jacking up shots non-stop. Or, you have the Suns who have a purpose on offense and seek to get the ball to the first open man who has a good look. Then you have the old Boston Celtics offense which relied on quick paced passing, players cutting, setting screens and moving without the ball.

A half court offense can still have a quick pace, you just need the right players who are unselfish, smart, can pass and make shots.

The bottom line is we need better passers and players who can think 2 and 3 steps ahead of their opponent. Players that can effectively move without the ball. That helps speed up the tempo.

I'm a little confused as to what exactly it is you want Ray to do?


I'm less concerned with what I want Felton to do, but more so as what I would like the team to do... as far as how you defined the pace and the complexity of the offense...I would say that I would like to see our offense force the pace, that is if we keep Felton. I do not think the Suns offense is overly complex...yes they have guys that can hit open shots and a great shooter/passer in Nash but they shoot a lot of layups and they force the pace...even if they are scored on they will have the ball down the court looking to score with in 10 secs at the most.... If anything I would like to see Felton penetrate and keep his dribble causing the defense to collapse and then kick to the open man...but the open man has to catch and shoot not dribble some more into trouble...If the Defense does not collapse take the ball up strong looking to get the foul...WE HAVE TO HAVE BETTER SPACING TO DO THIS.....but anyway my issues are with the Coach and the system we are running. I don't think it utilizes the talent we have...we are back to forcing the square peg into the round hole...until we can shave off the sides of the peg we could find a nice square hole....Also learn to use a bench why don't you.........

and BTW I don't think Felton is the only square peg being forced into something that does not come easy to them....

Felton --- running a slow down game in a half court....not easy for him to be very effective yet.

Mek --- being an offensive back to the basket go to person.

Crash --- guarding athletic power forwards.

McMinus --- Playing....

That is just a start......
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Post#99 » by W_HAMILTON » Mon Jan 7, 2008 3:23 pm

What the hell kind of "go to" person gets 2 shots in a game?

We aren't using him as a "go to" person. 3rd in shots yesterday, 7th in shots against NJ, 4th in shots against Chicago, 3rd in shots against Indiana, 5th in shots against Orlando, 6th in shots against New Orleans, 4th against Washington, etc.

His shots/game over that span is even less than it was earlier in the year, when Vincent made a stink about how we need to get the ball to Okafor more.

So, come up with something else to bitch about, I'm sure it won't be hard for you.
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Post#100 » by DaBassSource » Mon Jan 7, 2008 3:52 pm

W_HAMILTON wrote:What the hell kind of "go to" person gets 2 shots in a game?

We aren't using him as a "go to" person. 3rd in shots yesterday, 7th in shots against NJ, 4th in shots against Chicago, 3rd in shots against Indiana, 5th in shots against Orlando, 6th in shots against New Orleans, 4th against Washington, etc.

His shots/game over that span is even less than it was earlier in the year, when Vincent made a stink about how we need to get the ball to Okafor more.

So, come up with something else to bitch about, I'm sure it won't be hard for you.
WTF ever .....
and just because Mek does not get that many shot attempts in his stats column that does not mean he did not have the opportunity...he screws alot of them up...and I really was not bitching about Mek (since you are the authority on BITCHING). I simply do not think he is well suited for back to the basket scoring. He would be better suited getting most of his scoring off pick and rolls or weakside offensive rebounds (which he was great at while at UCONN)

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