RealGM

***edit - please post your Okafor trades in this thread***


its getting close to decision time for okafor. maybe its time to heat up the debate over what to do with him this summer.

what is he worth?

has he hit his ceiling as a player?

can he improve offensively?

does he have the ability to become the best low post defender in the league?

should we play him at center or power forward?

is he suffering due to poor coaching or poor pg play?

does he lack passion? aggressiveness? heart?

does he simply out-think himself on the floor?

can he develop a much needed jumpshot?

can he improve his free throw %?

how many touches/shots should he get per game?

should we force feed him even when he starts slowly?

can he and nazr effectively play together?

1) Approximately 10m a year. Which means starting lower than that and increasing above that.

2) Probably.

3) I doubt it. I have seen little evidence that he will ever be competent from outside of 5', and he's not going to get any taller or stronger. I doubt he's going to morph into Dwight and start dunking on people either.

4) Yes. He was close last year anyway, and he's thicker than Camby even if he's giving up 2". I think he can.

5) Center. He's 6'10", but he has no offensive range and he has trouble with faster players, so I don't see how PF is a serious option at this point.

6) In my opinion, no. He doesn't seem to do much better with more shots as opposed to less, because he has so few offensive tools. He also screws up half the time on just catching and holding the ball. Maybe he'd get some more fast-break dunks if we ran, the way I've always wanted us to, but I don't expect much impact from a new coach or new PG.

7) No, yes, no. I think he really cares, and wants to win, I just think he doesn't have the killer mentality you sometimes need to score if you don't have a great finesse game (meaning jump shot).

I don't know.

9) I doubt it, as mentioned above.

10) I also doubt it. It's pretty rare to see a substantial jump in a big man's FT%, especially if it's consistently terrible, not just bad.

11) I don't know touches, but probably about 10-12 shots is enough. If he converts 6 of them, for 12 points, and gets to the line to make another 2-3, that's usually a pretty good game.

12) No. I don't think he'll ever be that good of an offensive player.

13) Seems like the answer is no. They're both centers, neither can chase fast PFs, and they both mostly get easy baskets. So I think Nazr will have to remain Okafor's backup, while they play only sparingly together.

Was just speaking about this the other day!!

I have been a very vocal supporter of EO50. I still really see his potential but for what I think he brings to the table we can't afford to keep him at the price he'll want. The impact his contract would have on our roster Vs his production isn't worth it.

He's no where near a max player - and not that much closer to a $10 mil per year type player. He's like a Dalembert/Chandler type player and should be getting 8.5, 9, 9.5, 10, 11 (48 over 5) IMO. If he'll stay for that, I'd have him, but a cent more and I'd move him.

I'd love for the Heat to land that #1 pick (if we don't) and draft Beasley and the Wolves to land that #2 pick (again, if we don't). Then we could trade EO50 for Rose. Big Al and EO50 would be a good teaming. Rose could be our "missing link". Then if Rose pans out, look to trade Felts over the next 12 months so we don't make the same mistake we did with EO50 last summer and find ourselves in the same situation with him.

Then with our pick (8-14?), take the BPA or even take a look at Thabeet to replacing the shot blocking of EO50. Maybe take a flyer on that Jordan kid if he is still on the board or McGee? Either way, walk away from this draft with a shot blocker (maybe get back into the late 1st and draft Hardin if we go small with our 1st pick?) because I don't know how much longer I can handle watching EO50 fumble easy passes, try to lay the ball in (and miss) rather than dunk it and not finish with contact and get and "and-one".

Heck, we could probably sign Diop for a 1/4 of what it's going to take to extend EO50 this summer (Diop is a FA) - and essentially all the both of them are are shot blockers. It's just really not sitting with me well having to pay EO50. As much as I love him. I love the team more and locking him up is really, really going to hurt us.

As much as it pains me to write it, I think for the better of the team, we should look at a S&T.

To answer your questions Fats:

what is he worth?
8.5, 9, 9.5, 10, 11 (48 over 5)

has he hit his ceiling as a player?
No

can he improve offensively?
Yes

does he have the ability to become the best low post defender in the league?
Yes

should we play him at center or power forward?
Ideally at center - but he's too small.

is he suffering due to poor coaching or poor pg play?
To a point, but a lot of it is on him.

does he lack passion? aggressiveness? heart?
Yes. Yes. No.

does he simply out-think himself on the floor?
At times, yes.

can he develop a much needed jumpshot?
Yes

can he improve his free throw %?
Yes

how many touches/shots should he get per game?
13-15

should we force feed him even when he starts slowly?
So long as he is establishing deep position and catching the ball.

can he and nazr effectively play together?
Yes - Nazzy has range and can play the high post

I'm trying to remember a worse offensive player I've seen get as many plays run for him as Meka, and no one is coming to mind. Maybe Rambis in the Hornets very first year, but I don't think they ran as many plays for him.

I'm very down on Meka right now. I'd like to see the Cats trade him before he sabotages his value any more.

Hopefully sign him to a lesser deal, and thank our awful PGs and coach for saving a few mil a year?

The team was willingly offering him a 12m/year deal before this season, and he turned it down.

If they offer less, or he is now worth less, that mean he diminished in value this season. The question is, why?

It goes back to the same question I asked before...were people complaining about him fumbling the ball his first couple of seasons in the league? Did he just forget how to catch the ball this offseason?

Why is he turning the ball over so much? Why has Wallace's FG% dropped like a rock from the previous two seasons? Did he suddenly start sucking over the offseason, too?

More than likely, no.

You have players put in positions to do things they haven't been used to doing, because -- like it or not -- we have had disappointing playmaking from our PGs this entire season, and we have an awful coach. Two positions we got leadership from in the past, and the two positions that are probably most vital to our team in terms of having the most affect on everyone else, have been turned over to what have been failures this year.

So, you can think guys like him and Wallace suddenly got worse over this past offseason, or the situation around them got worse. I'm pretty damn sure I know which the answer is. When trying to find out the problem, given the choice between getting rid of Vincent and what's left of our disappointing duo at PG this season, or getting rid of Okafor, I know which I'd choose. Granted, I don't think we should "get rid" of Felton, but I definitely think we need to go in a different direction at PG, and let him play SG, or either play combo guard off the bench, but still.

It's time we stop off'ing good players while we give disappointing players a pass, when those disappointing players are probably the problem to begin with.

Again, try to sign Okafor to a lesser, reasonable deal, take McInnis and Felton and Vincent out to a great dinner and thank them heartily, then go in a different direction from those three and see whether or not a few of our players suddenly got worse in the offseason, or if it was because of that trio.

We've already gotten rid of one of the best contributors in franchise history because we thought he was the problem instead of other players, and we want to do the same again?

I guess some of us didn't learn our lesson from this disappointing, underachieving season, eh?

And don't play Okafor and Mohammed together. Play Okafor at center, and let him anchor the defense like he did so well last year. I'd love to know why everyone got on the "play Felton at his natural position!" bandwagon, but missed out on the "play Okafor at center!" As shown in recent games, the same things Felton is doing as our starting PG, he was doing back when he played SG.

If Okafor is guarding quicker guys out on the perimeter, it's completely taking away from probably the best aspect of his game. He needs to be in the post, anchoring the offense, and we don't need an even slower Mohammed out on the perimeter trying to guard someone like Bosh. Let Mohammed be the backup center, and maybe play the two together for a few minutes each game just to get them both enough minutes. But there's no reason they should be starting alongside each other. I don't even know if it's shown to be successful, in rebounding, offense, OR defense.

W_HAMILTON wrote:Hopefully sign him to a lesser deal, and thank our awful PGs and coach for saving a few mil a year?

I don't know if our "awful PGs and coach" could help EO50 catch the ball, stop travelling or play with aggression.

It goes back to the same question I asked before...were people complaining about him fumbling the ball his first couple of seasons in the league? Did he just forget how to catch the ball this offseason?

I think he drops more passes now and travels more now and gets caught for 3 in the key now more than ever before.

Why has Wallace's FG% dropped like a rock from the previous two seasons? Did he suddenly start sucking over the offseason, too?

Because he now shoots 3 balls and long J's more and posts up less than he did in the past?

When trying to find out the problem, given the choice between getting rid of Vincent and what's left of our disappointing duo at PG this season, or getting rid of Okafor, I know which I'd choose

The problem is though that keeping EO50 around will have a very negative effect on our bottom line. I'm not saying that we should be keeping Vincent around, but big picture, keeping EO50 would hurt a lot.

It's time we stop off'ing good players while we give disappointing players a pass, when those disappointing players are probably the problem to begin with.

And the problem here is that the "good" players want "great" money - because of the market place. If they were great, give them great money. But if they are only "good", then pay them accordingly.

Again, try to sign Okafor to a lesser, reasonable deal

In your opinion, what would that be?

I'll play the role of a curious 4-year-old.

BigSlam wrote:-= original quote snipped =-
I think he drops more passes now and travels more now and gets caught for 3 in the key now more than ever before.

Why?

Because he now shoots 3 balls and long J's more and posts up less than he did in the past?

Why?

PS - I object to this being entitled "The Mek-O-Meter," which obviously hearkens to the "Felt-O-Meter" thread, implying that Okafor needs to prove himself as much as Felton, when he doesn't.

Okafor has been good. Hell, even as "disappointing" as he is this season, he's still a helluva lot better than most big men in the league.

If we could sign Okafor to 4m/year, I bet there's no body on this board that would advocate getting rid of him.

If it takes 12m/year, then people start to have issues.

So, it's not a talent level issue, it's a money issue. I don't want Felton as our long-term starting PG, whether he makes 12m/year, or 4m/year.

It's a money issue with Okafor, and a talent issue with Felton. Felton has yet to prove himself in the ways that Okafor has. Okafor is a legitimate starting big man in this league, and still one of the best young big men in the league. On the other hand, Felton has to have the front office cut journeyman PGs so they don't displace him as our starting PG.

There's a wee bit of difference.

There two situations are not similar.

The problem with Okafor is a money issue. That's why all of your poll choices made reference to his contract situation.

The problem with Felton is a talent issue.

mek-o-meter is a tribute to your fav phrase the feel-o-meter. i find both titles humerous. but in a since, this is a "meter" to determine his worth.

you are correct, ham. this is a money issue and should not be compared to felton. okafor is not under a two month "tryout" period like felton. okafor has earned his starting spot. i dont think anyone is suggesting otherwise. however, okafor is in a contract year. he is the one who turned down our contract. so in a sense, he is playing to determine his value. the front office determined his value last fall at 12 mil, but surely some of that was based on the idea that okafor would continue to show signs of improvement, which he has not. so this also becomes a "can okafor improve or has he hit his ceiling" issue.

so............ okafor is showing no signs of improvement because of felton and vincent?

why is he dropping the ball more? well we dont have a stat to prove that he is dropping it more or if we just ignored it more in the past. but assuming he is dropping it more, which it "feels" like, i believe it has something to do with focus. i mentioned in another thread, that some games okafor does not appear focused.

i dont think i have heard too many people on this board arguing that okafor should play power forward. i think almost everyone agrees that okafor is better suited to play center. i think we all agree we need to upgrade our power forward position.

W_HAMILTON wrote:I'll play the role of a curious 4-year-old.

Why?

And I'll bite!!



I think he drops more passes now and travels more now and gets caught for 3 in the key now more than ever before because he's doing what doesn't come naturally to him and he's trying to do more than he can. He's out of his element. Not to say he wont be forever, but he needs to walk before he can run. He's come a long way. I mean year 1 and some of 2 he couldn't even crawl. At least he can walk now!!

The reason this didn't show as much in year 1 and 2 is because his offense was even less refined than it is now. Years 1 and 2 most of his scoring came from offensive boards and scrappy points. Now he's added hooks with both hands and some nice drop steps.

The other thing about his game is that he is a tweener. Not in the sense of size, but in playing style. He's not quite a power player and not quite a finesse player. He's sort of stuck in no mans land - and it shows more now than ever before when he's trying to bank a spinning shot from 15ft out and it clanks against the rim or when he wont dunk the ball.

Remember that 10 day period he had at the start of Feb when he was dunking everything in site and with meaning? He needs more of that.

As for Crash, he now shoots 3 balls and long J's more and posts up less than he did in the past because of confidence. He now, wrongly or rightly, feels he has the ability to hit the long ball. I also think that he's tired of taking a beating when he works the post so I figure he's a little happier not getting the snot beat out of him in the post and is more content to jack up J's. Plus, if opposing teams have scouted him correctly - and he's a pretty open book - they know to cut off the baseline, sag off him and dare him to shoot and he'll be less effective.

I don't think either of those things are on anyone other than the players themselves.

Not to say that a better PG or coach wouldn't help, but somethings are just ingrained, regardless of circumstance.

copy & paste paydro's responses here....

BigSlam wrote:I think he drops more passes now and travels more now and gets caught for 3 in the key now more than ever before because he's doing what doesn't come naturally to him

That's the same thing I said?

And I don't believe Okafor scored just off offensive putbacks in his rookie season; he was basically our go-to guy, and got doubled quite a bit. Yes, he shot poorly for a big man, but his offensive skills have developed over the years, so I would expect his shooting percentage to go up as well, and it has.

His rookie year, Okafor took more shots (over three more per game), and played MORE minutes than he has this year. Doesn't it stand to reason that if he was this bad all along, that his turnovers/game would be WORSE than this season? Well, they're not. Why, back then, when he took more shots, and played more minutes, did he have fewer turnovers than he does today, playing fewer minutes and getting fewer shots?

I think it's the same reason Wallace has been shooting so poorly.

We don't have a leader out on the court, we have an incompetent -- and what even seems to be a passive -- coach that doesn't seem to crack down on players when they play out of control, probably because no one respects him. We got off to a disappointing start, including a very disappointing offensive start considering we added a legit 20ppg scorer in Richardson.

You have guys doing what they aren't used to doing, and what they aren't at their best doing.

100% Agree with SLAM's last post. Now onto my responses to the questions:

what is he worth?
10-12m/yr. Max to me is a guy who dominates at either or both ends and is still very good at whatever one they don't dominate in. Okafor in the past has shown he can be dominant defensively and rebounding. He's not as big as he was last year defensively which is disappointing but if motivated, I think he can get back to that. Maybe 12m/yr would motivate him? I bet a new coach would too.

has he hit his ceiling as a player?
Pretty much, he's a big man in year 4. I think his ceiling is what we saw last year while maybe still having a little more offense somewhere in there. His biggest problem is he lacks finesse and is not consistantly aggressive enough. He also hurts himself by not being able to convert at the FT line or finish with contact. Maybe lack of concentration is part of it?

can he improve offensively?
Sure, I think he's improved each year and he's got some decent post moves now. I think he still needs a goto move, but working with Hakeem will help. Still don't know why we hired that old guy who came from the bucks as our big man coach when Hakeem is out there and our best big man already works with him. You can't tell me Dwight Howard hasn't been advanced by Ewing helping him.

does he have the ability to become the best low post defender in the league?
Actually yes.

should we play him at center or power forward?
Center without a doubt, he was a center in college and he's played his best NBA ball at center.

is he suffering due to poor coaching or poor pg play?
Poor coaching without a doubt, he actually has good chemestry with Felton which is one of the rare duo's of chemestry on this team.

does he lack passion? aggressiveness? heart?
Yes. Especially after SV ices him for long stretches. There's been a lot of times where he came out early showing the good stuff, went to the bench for like 10 mins straight of game clock and then came back to be a different player.

does he simply out-think himself on the floor?
Yup.

can he develop a much needed jumpshot?
I don't think so, if he's THAT bad at FT shooting how can he? I think he's destined to be a Ben Wallace, which isn't neccessarily a bad thing. But you never saw the Pistons focusing on dumping the ball off to Wallace in the post. Utilize the guy to his strengths, something a quality coach can take advantage of.

can he improve his free throw %?
Ugh, I hope so but it's unlikely.

how many touches/shots should he get per game?
Okafor scores off offensive rebounds, pick and rolls, and sometimes the post up. He definitely needs to get touches and be part of the offense, but use what works. If he wants more touches than that or wants to be the #1 option, then he needs to develop a jumper. Even that nice little bank shot he used to have would do wonders for his game.

should we force feed him even when he starts slowly?
No way, if it ain't workin' it ain't workin'. Use the pick and roll to get him dunks and then if he gets into a flow try going back to him.

can he and nazr effectively play together?
I thought so, but now I don't think so. Nazr is better suited at C as is Okafor. Neither of them can move outside of the paint so it ends up clogging the middle and we still can't rebound so I think once we find a quality PF to put in there it'll open the door up for Wallace and Okafor to thrive at their natural positions.

Actually, we DO have a stat for those turnovers! 82games keeps track of them, though its categories are based on box scores, so they're a little vague: offensive fouls, bad passes, ballhandling turnovers, and "other." Other, presumably, accounts for penalties and stuff.

First, his raw Turnover Rate: 06-07: 10.5%, 07-08: 13%
Let it be noted that these numbers aren't great, but they're not terrible either. A fair number of starting centers have a higher turnover rate, notably Yao, Dwight Howard, Shaq, Chandler, and Dalembert.

Emeka's 06-07 Raw Numbers:
Offensive Fouls - 20
Bad Passes - 30
Ballhandling Turnovers - 49
Other - 11

Emeka's 07-08 Raw Numbers:
Offensive Fouls - 26
Bad Passes - 34
Ballhandling Turnovers - 52
Other - 18

Coincidentally, Emeka played 67 games in both seasons. He has, however, played fewer minutes this season, so we can account for that. He does have a slightly higher usage rate this year than last year, but I don't know if I can adjust for that by simply averaging.

Anyway, Turnovers of each kind, per 40 minutes. 07-08 in parens.
Offensive Fouls - .343 (.464)
Bad Passes - .515 (.607)
Ballhandling Turnovers - .841 (.929)
Other - .189 (.321)

So there you have it, his turnovers are indeed on the rise in all categories, by minute, raw total, per game, and per possession.

By far the largest gain, proportionally, is in "other" turnovers, which presumably accounts for traveling, offensive 3 seconds, and whatever other turnovers you can think of that don't involve him mishandling the ball or throwing it out of bounds. Offensive fouls are also up much bigger than the other two categories.

Surprisingly, ballhandling turnovers have increased the least out of the four categories, though they are still up over last year.

W_HAMILTON wrote:His rookie year, Okafor took more shots (over three more per game), and played MORE minutes than he has this year.

He had no one around him his rookie season. This year he has Swish, Crash and a some what shot happy pg taking shots away from him so it stands to reason that he'll have less shots this year than he did when he was playing with Tamar Slay and the likes.

The mins thing I dont get at all. I'm often screaming in the game threads at Vincent for his use of EO50's playing time. It seems that when he gets got, he gets sat...........for unusually long periods of time.

Have you ever wondered if EO50 is 100% dialed into the game 100% of the time? Some times he looks down right disinterested IMO. I wonder if that is why he gets sat?

I also wonder if, with his 4.0 gpa, charitable work with Nigeria and aids etc if playing basketball is an after thought for him? I wonder if he has a bigger calling and if he walked away from the game tomorrow he would be that busted up?

Just thinking out loud.

W_HAMILTON wrote:-= original quote snipped =-
You have guys doing what they aren't used to doing, and what they aren't at their best doing.

While it's rare, I do agree with that strongly.

If you have 5 guys who each have their one skill that they're best at, you want each of those 5 guys using their best skill instead of each of them using the 4th best skill.

Here's one ability I'll use that is the first thing that comes to mind with each guy:

Okafor - block shots
Wallace - slash to the rim
Nazr - rebound
J-Rich - score
Felton - penetrate

So that tells me I'd want to use Okafor as the defensive centerpiece at center to protect the paint like a goalie, I'll want to use Wallace as my goto guy in the paint on offense to get to the rim, I'll want Nazr out there if I need rebounding, I'll use J-Rich as my #1 scoring option, and I'll use Felton to start the offense by penetrating into the paint. We should be exploiting those skills to help us rather than not using them and going to other skills they're not so good at. These guys are in the NBA because of those skills, they should be maximized in order to help us win.

BigSlam wrote:-= original quote snipped =-
He had no one around him his rookie season. This year he has Swish, Crash and a some what shot happy pg taking shots away from him so it stands to reason that he'll have less shots this year than he did when he was playing with Tamar Slay and the likes.

Sure, whatever. For argument's sake, I'll accept this point. So, why is he turning the ball over MORE than his rookie season, when he played more minutes, and took almost three shots MORE per game.

Doesn't it stand to reason, that if you give him fewer scoring opportunities, and play him fewer minutes, he would turn the ball over LESS?

But that's not the case.

Which is my point.

W_HAMILTON wrote:-= original quote snipped =-
Sure, whatever. For argument's sake, I'll accept this point. So, why is he turning the ball over MORE than his rookie season, when he played more minutes, and took almost three shots MORE per game.

Doesn't it stand to reason, that if you give him fewer scoring opportunities, and play him fewer minutes, he would turn the ball over LESS?

But that's not the case.

Which is my point.

But if he catches the ball in the paint and gets called for a travel before he puts up a shot, it obviously doesn't count as a shot attempt - but that doesn't mean he wasn't given a scoring opportunity. Know what I mean?

As far as why he travels more and fumbles the ball more now than he did then - I think it goes back to him being a cerebral player. Now when he catches the ball, he has a few moves he knows he can execute, but they are not natual yet. He hasn't had enough time to make them automatic. So as he catches the ball, he hasn't got enough time to process the situation, the defence, his position and what he should do - which results to him over thinking it and the next thing you know, he's shuffled his feet or dropped the pass.

I maintain, like I always have, that the NBA wont see the best of Emeka Okafor until he is in his late 20's-30. After he has had enough time to really embrace what he is continually learning and it becomes natural. He needs to be in a situation where a team can afford to let him have the time to work it out.

I just don't think we are that situation.