Coaching and Style of Play

[Felton for Pres]

In an attempt to get us talking about something other than the game last night, but yet stay on topic, I wanted to pose a discussion topic that my friends and I debate all the time. I think we can all agree that certain players are better for certain styles and coaches have a prefered system. Who is supposed to budge when those collide? This has to be an issue for High School coaches all the time who don't have a ton of say in who plays. One year you could have a bunch of short athletes and the next you could have a bunch of tall slow guys.

I was listening to Rick Carlisle talk about the Mavs and it seems that he is adjusting his style to the team instead of getting the team to adjust to his. LB is obviously doing the opposite. Porter in PHX is slowing down the Suns to match his defensive views. And while I appreciate that every situation is unique, which do you guys feel is the better approach?

My view is that is you have a round peg, you can't force it thru the square hole. A coach needs to be flexible based on the who is playing. LB is trying to slow down because May can't run, which I like. However, I admit to be thinking that while LB is a great coach and teacher, his system won't succeed with the personnel here.

[spectre_]

Then we need to get personnel who can play his way (tho I'm not convinced any we currently have can't...EVERYONE said we'd get worse before we get better).

This team is bottom of the barrel and hasn't gotten anywhere playing "their way". If we'd have won 50 games last season what Carlisle is doing might be applicable; we didn't so it isn't.

[fluffernutter]

I dunno. Let's wait and see.

All other LB teams struggled at the start (apparently, from what I have read).

What's going on with the Bobcats seems to be pretty normal, regardless of personnel.

I don't think the "LB system" requires specific types of players as much as other systems I have seen in the past (run-n-gun Phoenix style, dirty grind Pat Riley style, super-passing movement Sacramento circa Adleman style). All those styles really required specific sorts of players, sometimes very rare players (Sacramento comes to mind with Divac and Webber able to pass so well). Did these coaches luck out and get the right players for their teams at the right time? Sort of. But Adleman was doing much the same thing in Portland with much different players. It might have meshed better in Sacramento... (but perhaps not, Portland made it to the Finals, after all). Riley looked for tough dirty nasty players, but he probably also created some with his system. Phoenix is perhaps the best example of a system that requires very specific types of players... yet they seem to be doing OK under Porter, at a slower pace.

I guess I don't see it as much. I think if you snapped your fingers and gave all the Bobcats 2 years playing in his system, we would not be talking about if they were "the right players for the system." We would be talking about if it was enough to get into the playoffs, or how far into the playoffs.

By the way, what exactly is the "perfect sort of player" for LB? I know he likes to have one dirty mean rough guy down low, but other than that... what exactly?

If we can sniff the playoffs with bad defense and bad offense and a terrible coach, I think that's proof positive we have the players to pull it off with a good coach. If they buy into it, and learn quickly enough, that is.

[fatlever]

assuming LB is willing to stay around for a few years, i would prefer we attempt to get him the players he needs to succeed. my fear is that he will leave us halfway through and will be stuck in no man's land with guys like linton johnson, shannon brown and andre brown.

carroll is one player that i think would be better off being traded. i dont see how he can fit on this team, especially with ammo around. carroll is too much of a catch and shoot player and he doesnt exactly excel at shooting off screens either. ammo seems better suited to thrive in LBs movement and screen based offense. at 4.5 mil per, we cant afford to keep hammer around when we have so many other holes.

[e4Nf6]

I was curious about this starting slow business so here goes....

Larry Brown Coached teams in their first year:
F10/20 = First 10/20 games

05-06 Knicks
F10: 3-7 (.300)
F20: 6-14(.300)
Overall: 23-59(.280)
Next Year: NA

03-04 Pistons
F10: 6-4 (.600)
F20: 14-6(.700)
Overall: 54-28 (.659) NBA Champions
Next Year: 54-28 (.659) EC Champions

97-98 76ers
F10: 3-7(.300)
F20: 6-14 (.300)
Overall: 31-51 (.378)
Next Year: 28-22 (.560)

93-94 Pacers
F10: 3-7(.300)
F20: 9-11(.450)
Overall: 47-35(.573)
Next Year: 52-30(.634)

The Pacers team sticks out as one that took a sharp upward turn after a slow start....

In fact, Brown has had 4 losing season (out of 28) on a professional bench and 3 were his first year with the team.

[Paydro70]

E4, you beat me to it, as soon as I read that post above, P.A.Y.D.R.O. came out and I was going to go check it out.

Looks to me like the "slow start" is BS. He did better with the Knicks, about the same (better in the first 20) with the Pistons, Sixers were about the same... only the Pacers had a marked improvement. Much more promising is the improvement the second year with the 6ers and Pacers, since the Pistons had nowhere to go but down and he didn't have year 2 for the Knicks.

[W_HAMILTON]

Then we need to get personnel who can play his way (tho I'm not convinced any we currently have can't...EVERYONE said we'd get worse before we get better).

Dismantling a team to fit into Larry Brown's system, when Larry Brown coaches in one place for a couple of years then leaves, is ridiculous. Long-term, that will set us back even more.

Brown needs to either accelerate the teaching process, or bring in parts separately (instead of all at once) and coach this team using its strengths. I'll take a quick, open long jumper over a 22 seconds of passing the ball, then a player who isn't using to driving tries to penetrate and runs into his own players, or turns the ball over, or throws up a wild shot, etc.

[spectre_]

Wasn't talking about a mass trade; of course it'd be one at the time. But I also said that IMO no player has yet proved (to me) that he can't play in LB's system.

I don't think we will know who can or can't until we get about 20 games into the season. In fact it's been posted ad nauseum that LB's teams always get worse before they get better.

Yet here we are after one game about to jump off the ledge.

Regardless, this team since it's existence has never played in a system, but more a glorified version of street ball. What is there to keep? This team...regardless of who the coach is in 3 years...will ultimately be better if they adhere to LB's system than just doing more of what they have in the past.

[e4Nf6]

You know, while I was checking the stats in the back of my mind I was thinking: "I should hurry up, I bet Paydro is doing the same thing right now,"

[Walt Cronkite]

competition breeds excellence, keep it up stat monkeys!

[SamBone]

My outlook on the Cavs game and the 1 preseason game I watched is
1. May has no bust in his body. He looks fine, but can not jump. As an undersized (height) 4 he needs either hops or quickness which he visably does not have. Not hating on him because he is one of my favorite players, but physically he does not have it, It was wrong of this franchise to even dress him for the opener and go into the season with him the only 4 on the roster. Shame on Rod and MJ for that
2. Players look scared to shoot. LB has gotten into these guys heads. They are doubting their game and trying to do things they can't. I understand philosophy, but coachs need to coach the styles of the players they got. LB needs to find ways to get players comfortable in his system doing what they do. Preching for JRich and Hammer to drive instead of shoot doesn't help them. May looked scared to shoot when he got the ball, and ugly when he tryed to drive.
3. How do you expect the team to take practice serious when all prerseason long Brown was our "best player" possably our starting PF and then game 1 he doesn't dress and you play a guy that you signed 2 days prior. Why did he bust his but when L.Johnson did nothing. Then LJohnson gets minutes over Hammer and Duds. At least Ammo got significant time

[BigSlam]

e4Nf6 or Paydro:

Do you know what fg% LB's teams shot for the season? Also, what their ft% was for the season. And finally, how many 3pt attempts they took and where that ranked them in the league?

[floppymoose]

and what was their ft defense like? That's my favorite stat!

[Bassman]

I think using past stats on Brown's teams has a bit of merit, but may mean nothing with this squad. Each team is different, and the players matter most. LB started out by breaking this team down, and I mean BREAKING THEM, to the point they were nearly robotic. This is the same as boot camp, or other methods, which takes away all your bad habits and seeks to instill good ones. Now, LB will never keep his foot on the player's throats forever, but he has to get them playing defense and rebounding or they'll go nowhere.

Game 2 demonstrates that the players could run sets AND utilize the break, or an open shot, SO LONG AS THEY DO IT IN A DISCIPLINED MANNER. When everyone plays as a team and plays their role, they can have success. Wallace and J-rich were allowed to do their thing, but they also were expected to make plays for others. It worked against a bad undersizerd Miami team.

It will get harder against bigger, better teams. The test becomes this: can the player play with the same level of discipline and effort, and get results, even if they are behind, or losing some of the battles? LB is about mental toughness. If he can get players who can deliver that toughness on D, and in their roles, his teams can have success. This team is already migrating away from May and Carroll (and of course Hollins and Ajinca) to using the "tough" guys LB has brought in. The 2 Browns and Linton will become key players off the bench depending on matchups. Dudley is already an LB fave. DJ is rough now but has that toughness. Nazi knows how to play his system and the starters are learning. Ammo is trying hard but I think he gets traded.

[BigSlam]

I think using past stats on Brown's teams has a bit of merit, but may mean nothing with this squad. Each team is different, and the players matter most.

Right, which comes down to what we are discussing: What is more important to build with:

A coaching style/philosophy and getting the players to play that way
or
A identifying player type/strengths and adjusting the coaching style to suit those strengths?

I was wondering how flexible LB is. We know that he is not a big fan of 3pt shots. I was wondering in the past where his teams ranked in 3pt shots attempted. I was also interested to see what their fg% thinking that would show high percentage shots were used.

This would be especially interesting considering we only took 10 3pt attempts against the Heat and shot a staggering (for us) 54% from the floor. If there is a consistency between his teams taking very few 3pt shots but shooting a high percentage from the floor as well as going to the line a lot, that would show that LB is more a go with a coaching style/philosophy and getting the players to play that way rather than adjusting his style to suit a teams roster and it's make up.

Know what I mean?

[Walt Cronkite]

The original Bobcat Realgm stat nerd strikes back!
(Team- FG%, FT%, 3pa, FG% rank, FT% rank, 3pa rank)

88-89 Spurs- 46.8%, 69.8%, 293, 18/25, 25/25, 23/25

89-90 Spurs- 48.4%, 74.5%, 226, 10/27, 21/27, 26/27

90-91 spurs- 48.8%, 76.6% ft, 297, 7/27, 12/27, 26/27

91-92 spurs-47.6%, 73.6%, 404, 10/27, 23/27, 24/27

91-92 Clips- 47.3%, 72%, 502, 13/27, 27/27, 19/27

92-93 clips- 48.4%, 71.8%, 491, 10/27, 25/27, 23/27

93-94 pacers- 48.6%, 73.8%, 500, 2/27, 15/27, 26/27

94-95 pacers-47.7%, 75.1%, 985, 8/27, 9/27, 24/27

95-96 pacers- 48%, 75.5%, 973,4/29, 11/27, 27/29

96-97 pacers- 45.6%, 72.2%, 1130, 12/29, 21/29, 24/29

97-98 76ers- 44.3%, 73.7%, 810, 20/29, 18/29, 24/29

98-99 76ers- 42.6%, 72.2%, 371, 22/29, 18/29, 29/29

99-00 76ers- 44.2%, 70.8%, 643, 21/29, 26/29, 29/29

00-01 76ers-44.7%, 74.5%, 803, 12/27, 19/27, 28/29

01-02 76ers-43.6%, 77.9%, 715, 22/29, 4/29, 29/29

02-03 76ers- 44.8%, 77.5%, 787, 10/29, 8/29, 28/29

03-04 Pistons- 43.5%, 75.3%, 968, 18/29, 15/29, 26/29

04-05 Pistons-44.4%, 73.9%, 1053 17/30 23/30, 22/30

05-06 Knicks- 45.5%, 73.6%, 884, 12/30, 24/30, 28/30

[fatlever]

take that!!! walt +1

[Walt Cronkite]

basketball-reference.com is my friend.

[amcoolio]

If I'm reading this correctly, Brown hates his players taking 3 pointers.

[Walt Cronkite]

That isn't entirely correct. While only one of his teams broke into the top 20 (the Clipper team he joined for 45 games in 91-92 who dropped 4 places the following year) I imagine Brown's influence is more along the lines of allowing only a few players launch and that he defines roles for players so that they are unable to get many 3pa as a team.