Controversial Stmnt to Discuss

[ohara]

I brought this subject up last night on BCP and want to bring it here to get the thoughts of my friends over on RGM. This may bring back flashbacks and make you nauseated, but think it through and give me your opinion. Just wonder if any of you are thinking this, too. A little self analysis can be good for anyone now and then to make sure we are being fair and correct.

We blasted Sam Vincent last year for many reasons, and mostly good reasons. He was not qualified, not experienced enough, and he "lost the team". He needed to go, and MJ did what he had to do. Now, my question to you is, were we unfair at times to Vincent, given what we have still with the Hall of Famer LB at the helm? Lets look at it.

1. We had a crappy record last year, and everyone was quick to say that with LB, we should make the Playoffs with this team. Well, last season at 12 games we were 6-6, now we're 3-9. This is WITH the additions of Ammo, DJ, Ajinca, (and a part time May). I know J-Rich has missed the last few games, but the fact is LB has had just as much talent as Vincent, and we are with a worse record. How come no one wants to blast LB like we did Vincent?

2.Wast year everyone blasted Vincent for changing his starting lineup too much. We would yell "let them play together and learn their roles, then they will improve!" Yet, LB changes his lineup too. And we say "brilliant"! "Way to go!" " That will get us some results!" Not so.

3. During games, there were times that people yelled at the ceretain lineups at particular times in the game that Vincent used. We called it inexperience, and blamed the loss on Vincent. Well, LB does the same, and no one blasts him. Like in the Bucks game last night, why late in the 4th and us down a few does he take out Crash and put in Ammo? Ammo was off last night and Crash was solid. I am blacked out and cannot see the game on TV, so if it was an injury, I understand. But I have not read where there was an injury at that time.

4. Last year people blasted Vincent for "calling out his players". Well, hasn't LB done it? He blasts May for being in crappy shape, he starts Ajinca and DJ in place of May and Carroll because he isn't seeing what he wants from May or Carroll. But no one will criticize him for saying things publicly. Not fair to Vincent IMO. Vincent was just trying to fire his players up, too.

5. People WANT to see improvement and leap at anything to point out. I've read many times during this young season that "LB has made us a better team defensively." Really? I mean we get pounded inside, and I think our perimeter defense is pretty lacking. Honestly, I dont see that much difference between this season and last. If our Defense has improved a little, I think our Offense is seriously just as bad as last. I know J-Rich has missed some games, but this was garbage was happening even with J-Rich. And dont blame the FO and say LB needs a PF to make us better, because we didn't have one last year with Vincent either. What applies to LB should apply to vincent and visa-versa.

The point of my post is not that Vincent was a good Coach or that we should have kept him. He wasn't, and we should not have kept him. My point is that looking at it now, I think we were too critical of Vincent at times as LB has NOT been the difference maker we thought. Or, has LB actually "lost the touch"? Is that possible? I mean D'Antoni has the Knicks playing well even before the big trades, and they won again last night without their 2 big scorers they just traded away, and he had no more talent than LB - but he did have to deal with Issiah Thomas, so I'll cut him slack. But I think you see my point. Again, I do not think Vincent ws good, and I think he had to go. But looking at us now under LB, I think there were many times last season when we blamed a loss on Vincent and thought that " under a good Coach" we would have won the game and I see us with LB and we are still losing those same games. I think that in retrospect we were a little too harsh on Vincent and too quick to blame him for losses that were really not his fault alone.

Your thoughts, analysis and criticisms are welcomed. Were we too harsh at times on Sammy V.?

[Paydro70]

There are really only two possibilities here... 1) LB is still really good and this post is simply judging him too soon, or 2) LB has indeed lost his touch. There's no way that Vincent was a good coach or that we were too harsh on him... the guy was awful.

Honestly these are pretty good points... read the gamethreads, they're rife with people questioning the lineups and the play calls. But at least there ARE play calls, instead of just making everyone wander around. I'm not saying you're wrong, I can't argue with the results, but I'm way more likely to give LB the benefit of the doubt than Sam Vincent. That is completely fair, I think, because you obviously note the "hall of famer" that has to go before Brown's name.

I might also add a couple of factual points...
1) you're correct, our defense is indeed terrible, we rank 23rd in it, though 26th on offense. This is mostly just due to good-old-fashioned inability to stop the other team from scoring. We also can't defend our boards.
2) Right now our scoring margin is -5.33, last year at this time it was -3, so it's not like we were playing great ball at that point. Part of the reason for this is schedule; this year we have the 2nd-toughest schedule through 12 games, last year... well, 6 of the teams made the playoffs, 6 didn't, so I'd guess it was probably a middling schedule. So while last year might have looked more promising, it probably shouldn't have.

[BigSlam]

1. This team hasn't been coached since................well, forever. LB is said to have one of the more complicated systems to learn introducing 30 something plays with variations, so it's going to take some time to get used to. Plus, missing Swish might have been the difference of winning or losing games over the past week and a bit.

2. This roster has it's limitations and coaches are forced to improvise a little. In saying that, short of the Hawks game, I've never really seen LB use a small back court unless we were going up against a small back court. There have been some other questionable line ups, but again, I think that has more to do with roster limitations. What we don't see is EO50, Swish, Crash or Felts sitting for 12 or 14 mins at a time - something that the Idiot did all the time and the gripe that people had the most with his sub patterns.

3. Crash had played about 33mins up to that point and it was the 2nd game in two nights. I think there is only so much juice you can get when you squeeze it.

4. Vincent alienated his players - he didn't fire them up. He had his own agenda and LB being down on McMay for being a slob and Hammer for shooting 36% from the floor and 16% from the 3pt line is a whole lot different than anything the Idiot did or tried to do.

5. You need to see the games. Our on ball D is a million times better as is our defensive pressure. We actually press and trap and when we do, we haul back on D if the opposition beats the press/trap. It's light and day.

I get what you are saying, but put it this way: Do you think that LB would play something like McMinus as much as the Idiot did or trade Fabio and Primoz like the Idiot did or have the players lock him out of the rooms like the Idiot did?

[ohara]

But Slam, we are 23rd in Defense. Not much improvement. And the trade for Nazr, say what you will about Vincent wanting it, but it was the FO who pulls the trigger on deals, not Vincent. Cant hang that albatross around his neck alone.

[Felton for Pres]

One could argue that playing Jinx is akin to playing Primoz. But I digress...

I think you make a good point, in general. I disagree that we are a worse defensive team. I agree wholeheartedly with Slam that we are better on the ball and MUCH better on the pick and roll. I also think that while we are shooting like dog poop, our offense at least isn't 1 on 5. It does have the makings of "clicking" and it could be beautiful to watch if it does.

Since today's society is all about results, its clear that either we were too harsh on Sam or not harsh enough on LB. I don't think we turned on Sam until Dec so let's give us time. I think this board has demonstrated that its inconsistent with its assignment of blame. Letting LB off the hook for a 3-9 record is probably ok for now, but how much rope do you give the guy? It brings me back to the post about the style of the coach versus the style of the players. Clearly the style of the players is getting pushed aside for the style of the coach and that's why LB complains about the makeup of the team. A good coach is supposed to adjust to what they have. If they aren't "getting it", simplify.

I fear the real elephant in the room is that our teams performance is significantly driven by the players on the court. Hall of fame coach or no, if you don't have the players, it doesn't matter who is coaching. I still have faith that things are going to get better but it doesn't look good right now (kinda like the economny).

[ohara]

Good post Felton. But you may have misunderstood one thing I said. I am not saying we are worse defensively than last season. I dont believe we are worse. I am saying we are not that improved from last season defensively.

[misterglover]

I'm probably gonna be alone on this but so what....I think we should have kept Vincent, he was a young coach for a young team meaning as we grew as a team he would have grown as a coach, LB is 70 something years old and probably wont be around in 4 or 5 years then what?! We have to start over with another new coach. I dont see where Larry is so great personally thats not to take away from his legacy but right now what has he done that makes you say he is so much better than Vincent with this team?? Were losing more, he plays Felton at the 2 just as the other coaches did but they took so much grief for it and LB is doing the same thing here that he did in NY and thats taking any issues he has with the players to the media...how long before the players get sick of him?? Is it just me or has anyone else noticed that Crash doesnt seem to be to happy with LB...He's saying we need to make trades but he's telling people straight out that these players arent very good that cant help increase their trade value!!

But more important to me than anything else is that maybe it isnt how bad Vincent was or how good LB is but maybe its time to hold these players accountable....Okafor hasnt improved from his rookie year & doesnt even command the ball in the paint...last night Mbah a Moute was moving him out of position!! Think about that our only real low post player couldnt put a 6'8 skinny rookie on his back and post up continuously!!! Felton obviously hasnt proved his is the PG for this team or even best suited to play PG at a high level, May has done nothing, Morrison has looked better but still looks nervous & more like a good YMCA player than a top 3 NBA draft pick & Carroll has regressed this year....when are we gonna say as fans nobody could win with this team & hold these sorry players accountable?!!

[ohara]

Bold statement there misterglover. Keeping Vincent? Interesting. I think he lost the team and had to go. O/W there would have been a player rebellion.

Slam, I did misspeak one place. I have seen about 1/2 the games on-line. But watching on a small computer screen does not give you the same perspective as a nice big TV. Not to mention the freeze frames that often occur. You lose the flow of the game. So I do get your point about seeing them more. But I go with what I can see, the results, and coments by our peers during the game.

[BigSlam]

It brings me back to the post about the style of the coach versus the style of the players. Clearly the style of the players is getting pushed aside for the style of the coach and that's why LB complains about the makeup of the team. A good coach is supposed to adjust to what they have. If they aren't "getting it", simplify.

I agree with what you are saying, but what if the style of the players is to go 1-5 every time down the court?

I think it's a fine line between playing to your rosters strengths and playing the right way.

I'd "hope" that LB is smart enough to do a little of both. In saying that, I don't think we get nearly enough fast break points or quick transition points.

[BigSlam]

BTW ohara: I'm not dismissing the thread at all. I think it's a very good and valid point and one well worth discussing.

[Paydro70]

Just a quick bunch of stats on the D, all numbers are "allowed."

07-08:
Defensive Eff: 109.4 pts/100, 20th
eFG%: 50.5, 21st
TOs: 15.5%, 11th
OREB%: 29%, 28th
FT/FG: 23.5, 16th

08-09:
Defensive Eff: 105.9, 18th
eFG%: 50.3, 24th
TOs: 18.5%, 3rd
OREB%: 30%, 28th
FT/FG: 23.6, 14th

Note that Defensive efficiency number is different from what I previously quoted... my guess is Knicker-Blogger hadn't updated with last night's game, where we played good D (or faced a bad O, depending on your perspective).

So, right now, the team is playing roughly equivalent to last year (ignore the difference in the raw number, offenses in general get better as the year goes on) on defense. The only big difference is the one highlighted by Slam: our trapping is producing a lot of turnovers. Unfortunately we match them ourselves with the 4th-highest turnover rate.

It's certainly possible to attribute everything that's happening right now to learning curve. We're playing a totally different, slow-down style, which tends to be high turnover anyway (because there are more passes and more time with possession), and our point guards aren't exactly floor generals.

[BobsBuddy]

If you asked Larry Brown or any other NBA coach what the one judge of a coachs performance over any given seanson he would have a one word answer. WINS
So how do we get WINS.
We trade For a solid 3 and get rid of Wallace before he becomes permanently diabled ....Ask Lakers about Lamar Odom/ 1st round 2009 pick?
We trade Felton for a Solid 4 Ask LA Clippers for Al Thornton/Jason Hart/2009 second
We sign Tinsley
Lineup
Augustine/Tinley/Hart.... Sign Tinsley for 2 years and 3rd year option
Richardson/ Caroll/Brown
Odom/ Dudley/Morrison...... Odom contract expies 2010
Thornton/Ajinca/May....could play Odem at 4
Okafore/Nazr/Hollins
Pickup 2009 1ST round and 2Nd round picks
Theres another suggestion Bob and I still haven't got season tickets yet?

[Felton for Pres]

I agree with what you are saying, but what if the style of the players is to go 1-5 every time down the court?

I think it's a fine line between playing to your rosters strengths and playing the right way.

I'd "hope" that LB is smart enough to do a little of both. In saying that, I don't think we get nearly enough fast break points or quick transition points.

Good point. Sadly, I think that is the type of team we have.

[nugentrk]

an interesting article about coaching
http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-3 ... aches.html

Larry Brown gets a free pass because he is a HOF coach but I think Larry Brown is now overrated. He is now equivalent to a HOF player trying to go out on top.

Flip Sanders 09

[Walt Cronkite]

I'd like to see how the team does with it's best player playing well in more than 3 of 12 games before I scape goat the coach or the general construct of the team. I've been unfairly harsh on Ray's shooting which he has forced since jrich has been out, but I guess that's by team design.

[W_HAMILTON]

BBBBBBBK.

You figure it out.

[Felton for Pres]

bring back bernie bickerstaff something something brevin knight?

[W_HAMILTON]

Dang, guess I won't get that job as a military encoder.

[SamBone]

My assesment is simple

1. Sam was a moron.

2. The game has passed Larry by. The league is different and he will never change

3. The team is not as good as it looks on paper

[Felton for Pres]

Dang, guess I won't get that job as a military encoder.

what were the middle 2 B's?