Numbers since the trade

[ohara]

Diaw: 15.6 pts 7.5 reb 5.2 assts

Bell: 8.9 pts 3.4 reb 2.1 assts

Singletary: 1.3 pts 1.1 reb 0.8 assts


J-Rich: 15.8 pts 4.6 rebs 2.3 assts

Dudley 1.3 pts 1.5 reb 0 assts

When you factor in the improved Defense, and improved ball handling/passing skills, I think most would have to agree that we at least broke even on this trade, if not came out on top. I realize many loved J-Rich, but numbers say we are likely better in most respects.

[bobcatters]

Thank you for producing raw numbers, however, it would be appreciated if you would provide some analysis behind your opinion. Otherwise, I am not sure why this is worth a new thread.

[Rich4114]

You might wanna compare Diaw's, Bell's, and Singletary's numbers on the Bobcats vs J-Rich and Dudley also on the Bobcats.

[ohara]

You might wanna compare Diaw's, Bell's, and Singletary's numbers on the Bobcats vs J-Rich and Dudley also on the Bobcats.

J-Rich on Cats: 18.7 pts 4.1 reb 2.6 asts

Dudley on Cats: 5.4 pts 3.0 reb 1.0 asts

[ohara]

Thank you for producing raw numbers, however, it would be appreciated if you would provide some analysis behind your opinion. Otherwise, I am not sure why this is worth a new thread.

I've seen the way you seem to like to talk, so I left that for you to do.

[bobcatters]

Thank you for producing raw numbers, however, it would be appreciated if you would provide some analysis behind your opinion. Otherwise, I am not sure why this is worth a new thread.

I've seen the way you seem to like to talk, so I left that for you to do.

On the contrary, I am legitimately interested in what you think. That is why I encourage you to provide analysis with your post. Your stats are not random so clearly you have a point of view. Just explain why you think the numbers support your position that the trade is good.

[ohara]

Forgive me for not going in depth more. My general policy on posting is sort of peculiar and it's my own style. Let me use a Baseball analagy. When I start a Thread, it is usually just posting something like figures or news, like setting the table, and letting the clean hitter come up and knock it out of the park. Once some discussion takes place, then I tend to get into more detail, playing off of what others write. Just my own way of doing things.

I know when we made the trade, many argued that our scoring would suffer greatly. But when you see how Diaw has produced, it is not a great drop off at all. Add Bell and Singletary's scoring, and we come out ahead of J-Rich and Dudley's production. And that is just the scoring. Looking at the rebounds and assists, that is a bonus for us. Then you look at the increased defense Bell gives us, the passing ability of Diaw, and Singletary's potential, and I just feel the trade is a plus for Charlotte. I know some here loved J-Rich for his selfless leadership and the big scoring threat he gave us, but I dont think that what J-Rich and Dudley provided surpasses what we get overall with Diaw, Bell and Singletary. And I feel I can say LB would agree since he is certainly the architect of the trade.

[bobcatters]

Now that is a post worth reading. I figure, I already know what I think. I go to a bunch of games and ramble on to the people seated around me. When I come here, I want to hear all of your opinions. With a large collections of mongoloids on this board, we need good posters like yourself to give us the insight you have in your posts. Makes the place worth visiting. If not, we have Dexmor posting about tanking and regurgitating the inane sportstalk radio he heard on his way home from work, school or more likely, daycare.

Good job.

[fatlever]

my reaction to the trade is simple.... if boris is on the team the day after the trade deadline, i'm buying a diaw jersey. he's my new fav player. take that ammo. okafor should take boris out for a prime rib dinner every night after the game. just make sure to rub some au jus on it first. zut alurs.

as for the raw stats, hard to gauge much from them. the suns dont need jrichs scoring, we need diaws. it only makes sense that jrich would come down and diaw would go up. thats my 5th grade level stats analysis.

but stats or no stats, if diaw can keep playing at this level for a few years, i think we finally got the better end of a deal, at least in terms of what we needed. my concern is that diaw's play and numbers will start to decline as the losing sets in. he doesnt strike me as the tireless worker type.

[fatlever]

here's some stats

in 34 combonined games jrich and dudley had 18 hammers
in 19 combined games diaw and bell have 20 hammers

edge: diaw and bell

the hammers dont lie

[TASTIC]

I love this Hammer idea you guys have, I check it after every game and pretty much pick them spot on.

Quite like the Bobcats, Diaw's always held a soft spot cos he has so much talent, glad he's appreciated on another team. I'll be browsing on here often...

Bell's probably best suited as a bench player, but he provides an intensity you rarely see

[Mr2400]

i think both teams got what they were looking for out of the trade. Bell and Diaw had worn out their welcome in PHX, and the suns were looking to add a guy like J-Rich.

[BigSlam]

my concern is that diaw's play and numbers will start to decline as the losing sets in. he doesnt strike me as the tireless worker type.

Or when he arrives back to training camp after the summer late and with an extra 40lbs.

[Dexmor]

Well I think the most important stat is wins. Clearly this trade was best for both parties.
The Bobcats are 5 wins 6 losses since the trade and before that they weren't so close to 50%


Why for Suns
The Fun Machine is fixed. They get a replacement for JJ and Q and guys they lost and never replaced. They kind of help the fact they gave away all those picks now by letting Barbosa being truley a bench player. There starting lineup again is pretty freaking deep now with a true big 4 instead of Nash and Amare with Shaq and some role players.
Boris Diaw was absolutely sucking with the Suns. He was playing like a scrub making 10 million and Bell just bitched. If nobody wanted them they probably would have gave them away but they had value.

Why for Bobcats
First I would like to say we got lucky in a way because we didn't know Diaw would be this good. I don't know if it's a good player on a bad team sindrome or he has hit his prime now or just needed a new begining or what but we got the best potential Boris Diaw there so we got very lucky. Its possible LB knew he would transform into this player but I doubt it. Even the year Amare went down Diaw wasn't this good. A JRich for Diaw trade straight up would be fair if we knew Diaw would play this well for us. We got Sean Singletary which was a throw in but he is defenately from what I have seen of him a LB guy in the future. A low maintance pg who was drafted for defense. We could defenately trade Felts and have him as DJ's catty. Next year if he is our backup pg getting 15 minutes he breaks even with Dudley. He's not getting cut and really you have to look at him as our second round pick in the upcoming draft which we gave up. That is why he and the pick were added.
As for what we lost we lost Jarred Dudley who was a nice little player, a hustle guy but really no potential to be anything more then that. Slow and unathletic and very easily replacable. We lost our best scorer but he wasn't a guy meant to be a #1 option and that is what we were using him for and clearly it wasn't working. Also it is possible we don't trade Gerald after trading Jrich which in itself makes it almost worth it. Gerald is better then JRich any way you slice it.

And as for getting Bell that is something that is gonna pay off in Feb. Right now he gives shows the young players how to win, gives us much needed defense espially since we have no offense and is a good locker room guy.
His real value comes in Feb though assuming they trade him. They can get alot for him. I could think of a bunch of teams that would absolutely love him for the playoffs. Can you imagine how much the Celtics would love to have him to throw on Kobe or the Hornets to throw on Kobe. Or how much the Spurs would just love the idea of playing Bell and Bowen out there for stretches. Or the Cavs having him and Lebron locking down the peremiter. Or even the Lakers to have somebody to throw at Pierce and Bell. Im sure the Knicks would love him as well. The Magic need a guard bad and Bell could give them that expierence to make the real which some say they already are. Denver would love him to with Billups. I can go on and on but the point is the last of this trade has probably yet to come. I think it will end up being Diaw and Sean with another young player that we got from Bell for JRich and Dudley which makes this a huge win for both teams.

[ommmmmm7wytj]

Also the numbers of Okafor and Wallace increased... Not easy to make statistics speak, we speak to their place.

It's crazy to see so many members today telling they love Boris while they criticized him just after the trade without having seen him play. You are satisfied with Boris? Nevertheless he is not at his best. It is not still the Boris Diaw we saw in 2005 when he was elected in the best 5 in the European championship, when he was the major piece of the Suns during the 2006 play-offs until the Western Conference Finals and when he was elected MIP. Yes Boris have a better 3, but Boris is not still old 3D. 5-6... With Boris in an estern team, it could be even better than that. And it doesn't much matter the individual numbers. It's only matter of wins (and chemistry).

[StutterStep]

Forgive me for not going in depth more. My general policy on posting is sort of peculiar and it's my own style. Let me use a Baseball analagy. When I start a Thread, it is usually just posting something like figures or news, like setting the table, and letting the clean hitter come up and knock it out of the park. Once some discussion takes place, then I tend to get into more detail, playing off of what others write. Just my own way of doing things.

I know when we made the trade, many argued that our scoring would suffer greatly. But when you see how Diaw has produced, it is not a great drop off at all. Add Bell and Singletary's scoring, and we come out ahead of J-Rich and Dudley's production. And that is just the scoring. Looking at the rebounds and assists, that is a bonus for us. Then you look at the increased defense Bell gives us, the passing ability of Diaw, and Singletary's potential, and I just feel the trade is a plus for Charlotte. I know some here loved J-Rich for his selfless leadership and the big scoring threat he gave us, but I dont think that what J-Rich and Dudley provided surpasses what we get overall with Diaw, Bell and Singletary. And I feel I can say LB would agree since he is certainly the architect of the trade.

Fair enough. I thought the trade tilted in your favor, but felt you should have added to JRich not trade him.

As for PHX, I'd be interested in the %ages each is shooting, as well as what Diaw/Bell was giving them. Also, their W/L is at a higher clip since the JRich addition.

[Dexmor]

Also the numbers of Okafor and Wallace increased... Not easy to make statistics speak, we speak to their place.

It's crazy to see so many members today telling they love Boris while they criticized him just after the trade without having seen him play. You are satisfied with Boris? Nevertheless he is not at his best. It is not still the Boris Diaw we saw in 2005 when he was elected in the best 5 in the European championship, when he was the major piece of the Suns during the 2006 play-offs until the Western Conference Finals and when he was elected MIP. Yes Boris have a better 3, but Boris is not still old 3D. 5-6... With Boris in an estern team, it could be even better than that. And it doesn't much matter the individual numbers. It's only matter of wins (and chemistry).

Never seen him play? I am a Laker fan as well as the Bobcats which means I have seen him plenty with the Lakers and Suns in the playoffs and just watching Suns games. As a matter of fact who the hell hasn't seen Boris Diaw play? I think everybody has. Everybody knows his game.
What basis are you using to say he was better then? Being on an Eastern team means nothing now. Just in case you haven't noticed the East has pretty much caught up to the West. He did alot on the Suns playing as a big with the run and gun style and Nash which gave him more chances for points and rebounds yet he still gets more with the Bobcats. And yes he probably does handle the ball alot more here and is the focul point of the offense but i don't see how you can say he is not as good as he was. To me he is clearly better.
Also it is stupid to be bring up the fact that people were bashing him before the trade because before the trade he was terribly inconsistant. People had a right. He wasn't the Boris of 05-06 last when he came here and was inconsistant and didn't continue on his progress when Amare came back. Who wouldn't have concern? Who wouldn't call him inconsistant?
You telling me you absolutely knew he would put up 15 8 and 5 and be arguably the best player on the team after the trade?

[spectre_]

And as for getting Bell that is something that is gonna pay off in Feb. Right now he gives shows the young players how to win, gives us much needed defense espially since we have no offense and is a good locker room guy.
His real value comes in Feb though assuming they trade him. They can get alot for him. I could think of a bunch of teams that would absolutely love him for the playoffs. Can you imagine how much the Celtics would love to have him to throw on Kobe or the Hornets to throw on Kobe. Or how much the Spurs would just love the idea of playing Bell and Bowen out there for stretches. Or the Cavs having him and Lebron locking down the peremiter. Or even the Lakers to have somebody to throw at Pierce and Bell. Im sure the Knicks would love him as well. The Magic need a guard bad and Bell could give them that expierence to make the real which some say they already are. Denver would love him to with Billups. I can go on and on but the point is the last of this trade has probably yet to come. I think it will end up being Diaw and Sean with another young player that we got from Bell for JRich and Dudley which makes this a huge win for both teams.

I think that's a very good observation. He might just get us that stud project in the end and make this a great trade vs. a very good one (based on talent).

[ohara]

I agree Dexmor. I think it is entirely possible Bell is moved again for something which will benefit us greatly next year. I just really dont want to lose Diaw. I like his game alot. If he can just cut down on the TO's, he'd be awesome.

[Dexmor]

Well Diaw is young enough were we should keep him. Regardless of what that guy said his best years are ahead of him. He is in his prime so he should be kept. He doesn't seem unhappy and looks like he should be captain of the team. I can't say heart and soul because nobody has more heart then Crash. The only potential problem is Larry Brown. Bell is such a LB guy he could influence the FO to keep him instead of trading him for a really good prospect which would be terrible. Lets hope for once though Brown can be ignored or sees the bigger picture.

Also I would like to point out that yes Diaw clearly does help Mek get easy baskets whenever a 20 point a game guy espially one who is your highest scorer leaves and he is not replaced by another scorer other guys get more shots and alot of players averages go up so I don't know how much of that we can use. Maybe if Mek was consistantly a 20 point scorer we can throw Diaw a parade but a few players averages going up a little after losing a 20 point scorer is pretty typical.